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	<title>Comments on: The monestry discussion, Chapter 3,412</title>
	<link>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/</link>
	<description>Criticism and commentary on southern gospel music and culture</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3</generator>
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		<title>By: gjg</title>
		<link>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-45818</link>
		<dc:creator>gjg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2007 01:35:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-45818</guid>
		<description>Really perfect!t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really perfect!t</p>
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		<title>By: www.southerngospelblog.com &#187; On becoming a Legend</title>
		<link>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-4351</link>
		<dc:creator>www.southerngospelblog.com &#187; On becoming a Legend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-4351</guid>
		<description>[...] With most of the leading Southern Gospel bloggers discussing the same topic (here, here, and here), I thought it might not be a bad idea for at least one of us to give you something else to think about. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] With most of the leading Southern Gospel bloggers discussing the same topic (here, here, and here), I thought it might not be a bad idea for at least one of us to give you something else to think about. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: CVH</title>
		<link>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-4348</link>
		<dc:creator>CVH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-4348</guid>
		<description>Good intentions and wishful thinking aside, I really wonder why artists and groups think they're "winning the lost" by their work.  Or that there's anything wrong with the fact that perhaps they're not, at least not as much as they would like to think.

As you point out, SG audiences are blue and white-collar middle America who gladly put a few bucks in an offering plate or buy an artist-circle ticket with high expectations.  Oh, and that 3 'fer 30 special?  I'll take two, one for me and one for Aunt Blabby who couldn't be here tonight.  Sure, an occasional
"sinner" may be invited or stumble into a gospel concert but they're not the target market anymore than they are the intended buyers of gospel CDs or listeners to Christian radio.  

The gospel may have no demographic but everything we touch seems to.  
I don't think there's anything particularly surprising or bad about how things are today because America is a consumer culture and we consume gospel music just like we consume Wheaties and grilled Stuft burritos from Taco Bell.  Oh, one could argue from a purist's viewpoint that things shouldn't be so commercial and market-oriented.  But for better or worse, that's how it is.

It's ironic that Jesus said, 'If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me".  Truly He could have benefitted from a better marketing campaign, a catchy logo, some cool ringtones and focus-group analysis.  After all, if you measured the number of converts He had after 3 years of ministry...
   
Groups truly concerned about evangelism could sell the bus and get out from that $600 a tank diesel bill, minister in the streets and in missions, and give their product away.  Of course that means we wouldn't have NQC or fan awards (Best Mixed Group With The Most Certified Converts, First Quarter
'07 Award goes to..."?)  And how much fun would that be?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good intentions and wishful thinking aside, I really wonder why artists and groups think they&#8217;re &#8220;winning the lost&#8221; by their work.  Or that there&#8217;s anything wrong with the fact that perhaps they&#8217;re not, at least not as much as they would like to think.</p>
<p>As you point out, SG audiences are blue and white-collar middle America who gladly put a few bucks in an offering plate or buy an artist-circle ticket with high expectations.  Oh, and that 3 &#8216;fer 30 special?  I&#8217;ll take two, one for me and one for Aunt Blabby who couldn&#8217;t be here tonight.  Sure, an occasional<br />
&#8220;sinner&#8221; may be invited or stumble into a gospel concert but they&#8217;re not the target market anymore than they are the intended buyers of gospel CDs or listeners to Christian radio.  </p>
<p>The gospel may have no demographic but everything we touch seems to.<br />
I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anything particularly surprising or bad about how things are today because America is a consumer culture and we consume gospel music just like we consume Wheaties and grilled Stuft burritos from Taco Bell.  Oh, one could argue from a purist&#8217;s viewpoint that things shouldn&#8217;t be so commercial and market-oriented.  But for better or worse, that&#8217;s how it is.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s ironic that Jesus said, &#8216;If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me&#8221;.  Truly He could have benefitted from a better marketing campaign, a catchy logo, some cool ringtones and focus-group analysis.  After all, if you measured the number of converts He had after 3 years of ministry&#8230;</p>
<p>Groups truly concerned about evangelism could sell the bus and get out from that $600 a tank diesel bill, minister in the streets and in missions, and give their product away.  Of course that means we wouldn&#8217;t have NQC or fan awards (Best Mixed Group With The Most Certified Converts, First Quarter<br />
&#8216;07 Award goes to&#8230;&#8221;?)  And how much fun would that be?</p>
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		<title>By: CG</title>
		<link>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-4344</link>
		<dc:creator>CG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-4344</guid>
		<description>contrite = repentant, regretful, humbled

This message has been brought to you courtesy of Webster's New World Thesaurus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>contrite = repentant, regretful, humbled</p>
<p>This message has been brought to you courtesy of Webster&#8217;s New World Thesaurus.</p>
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		<title>By: ST</title>
		<link>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-4336</link>
		<dc:creator>ST</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-4336</guid>
		<description>Please do not think I'm endorsing all of the following men in this statistic I heard on Christian Talk Radio.  Here's what was said. When you mention names like T. D. Jakes, James Dobson, Charles Stanley, Joel Olsten, and a list of other main stream media preachers, only 1/3 of Americans know who you are speaking of.  

Now, these are ministries in main stream television "ministry"(which could be discounted in some cases here.) However, only 1/3 of Americans know who they are.  Who are they preaching to then?  Church people!  They are not "winning the world for Jesus."  They are preaching to church people.

Furthermore, if they are on T.V. every week and christian radio everyday, then how many Americans know your top-notch most popular Southern Gospel Group.  

There's nothing wrong with having a ministry that blesses the church and the christian.  But, when these groups think they are "winning the world for Jesus," - the truth is THEY ARE NOT.  As a matter of fact the Bible tells us that people will turn away from the gospel in the last days.

My biggest problem is with these self-appointed Super Star Gospel Singers who think they are the reason the world is turning to Jesus.  The truth is they are not winning the world Jesus, and furthermore, God doesn't need them to accomplish his perfect plan.

What we need to do is just humblely be faithful in what God wants us to do and let God do the saving and number counting.  I'm personally sick of entertainers because their not real.  I'd rather just see ministry minded humble people who are faithful to God and faithful to do what He wants without the flash and "STAR IN MY OWN MIND" sydrome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please do not think I&#8217;m endorsing all of the following men in this statistic I heard on Christian Talk Radio.  Here&#8217;s what was said. When you mention names like T. D. Jakes, James Dobson, Charles Stanley, Joel Olsten, and a list of other main stream media preachers, only 1/3 of Americans know who you are speaking of.  </p>
<p>Now, these are ministries in main stream television &#8220;ministry&#8221;(which could be discounted in some cases here.) However, only 1/3 of Americans know who they are.  Who are they preaching to then?  Church people!  They are not &#8220;winning the world for Jesus.&#8221;  They are preaching to church people.</p>
<p>Furthermore, if they are on T.V. every week and christian radio everyday, then how many Americans know your top-notch most popular Southern Gospel Group.  </p>
<p>There&#8217;s nothing wrong with having a ministry that blesses the church and the christian.  But, when these groups think they are &#8220;winning the world for Jesus,&#8221; - the truth is THEY ARE NOT.  As a matter of fact the Bible tells us that people will turn away from the gospel in the last days.</p>
<p>My biggest problem is with these self-appointed Super Star Gospel Singers who think they are the reason the world is turning to Jesus.  The truth is they are not winning the world Jesus, and furthermore, God doesn&#8217;t need them to accomplish his perfect plan.</p>
<p>What we need to do is just humblely be faithful in what God wants us to do and let God do the saving and number counting.  I&#8217;m personally sick of entertainers because their not real.  I&#8217;d rather just see ministry minded humble people who are faithful to God and faithful to do what He wants without the flash and &#8220;STAR IN MY OWN MIND&#8221; sydrome.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-4323</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 06:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-4323</guid>
		<description>Avery,

I've read your post three times now, and each time that I start to think I've figured out what you're saying, you loop me around and I'm hopelessly confused again.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it almost seems to me as though you equate the term "ministry" with some sort of hyper-evangelical "altar call" technique functioning as the focal point / climax of a concert setting.  I keep re-reading your post, but that still seems to be your definition of "ministry."

Now that's not to say that there aren't some sg groups out there who DO mean that by their use of the term "ministry."  I quickly get tired of those occasions where I go to a concert and the artist feels compelled to close that way, although I've visited enough Baptist churches to realize that this is some sort of perfunctory ritual that is routine in certain segments of Christianity.  And to the extent that there are artists out there who think that way, they do need to get slapped around (and you do a good job of taking care of that for us).

Maybe giving "altar calls" can be considered one acceptable component of what "ministry" is, but hopefully that narrow band of activity does not exhaust the scope of what "ministry" is.  If that's all there is to "ministry," then I'm not quite sure why the priest at the Episcopal church I occasionally visit is called a "minister," since I'll bet my last dollar he's never given an "altar call."  If I learned anything in seminary, it's that "ministry" encompasses such a broad spectrum of activity that it may well just include every single thing I do (including typing this note).

Without doubt the term "ministry" encompasses "encouraging the saints," an activity you've mentioned; but then I go back and read again what you wrote, and it almost seems to me that you're defining "encouraging the saints" out of the purvey of what you understand to be "ministry"--a term I almost think you're reserving for hyper-evangelistic conversion techniques.  Indeed, wouldn't (as you put it) "being 'just' a good entertainer and 'only' bringing a little joy into regular people’s lives" also be a central function of "ministry"?

Now you can set me straight on what you meant, because I'm sure I misunderstood something somewhere.  I think I agree with most of what you say here, especially about the folly of an artist having such a narrow focus that he/she thinks a concert is all about closing with an "altar call" and trying to convert the one non-Christian who's there, but then I'm not sure if I really understood what you said at all.

Tom</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Avery,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read your post three times now, and each time that I start to think I&#8217;ve figured out what you&#8217;re saying, you loop me around and I&#8217;m hopelessly confused again.</p>
<p>Correct me if I&#8217;m mistaken, but it almost seems to me as though you equate the term &#8220;ministry&#8221; with some sort of hyper-evangelical &#8220;altar call&#8221; technique functioning as the focal point / climax of a concert setting.  I keep re-reading your post, but that still seems to be your definition of &#8220;ministry.&#8221;</p>
<p>Now that&#8217;s not to say that there aren&#8217;t some sg groups out there who DO mean that by their use of the term &#8220;ministry.&#8221;  I quickly get tired of those occasions where I go to a concert and the artist feels compelled to close that way, although I&#8217;ve visited enough Baptist churches to realize that this is some sort of perfunctory ritual that is routine in certain segments of Christianity.  And to the extent that there are artists out there who think that way, they do need to get slapped around (and you do a good job of taking care of that for us).</p>
<p>Maybe giving &#8220;altar calls&#8221; can be considered one acceptable component of what &#8220;ministry&#8221; is, but hopefully that narrow band of activity does not exhaust the scope of what &#8220;ministry&#8221; is.  If that&#8217;s all there is to &#8220;ministry,&#8221; then I&#8217;m not quite sure why the priest at the Episcopal church I occasionally visit is called a &#8220;minister,&#8221; since I&#8217;ll bet my last dollar he&#8217;s never given an &#8220;altar call.&#8221;  If I learned anything in seminary, it&#8217;s that &#8220;ministry&#8221; encompasses such a broad spectrum of activity that it may well just include every single thing I do (including typing this note).</p>
<p>Without doubt the term &#8220;ministry&#8221; encompasses &#8220;encouraging the saints,&#8221; an activity you&#8217;ve mentioned; but then I go back and read again what you wrote, and it almost seems to me that you&#8217;re defining &#8220;encouraging the saints&#8221; out of the purvey of what you understand to be &#8220;ministry&#8221;&#8211;a term I almost think you&#8217;re reserving for hyper-evangelistic conversion techniques.  Indeed, wouldn&#8217;t (as you put it) &#8220;being &#8216;just&#8217; a good entertainer and &#8216;only&#8217; bringing a little joy into regular people’s lives&#8221; also be a central function of &#8220;ministry&#8221;?</p>
<p>Now you can set me straight on what you meant, because I&#8217;m sure I misunderstood something somewhere.  I think I agree with most of what you say here, especially about the folly of an artist having such a narrow focus that he/she thinks a concert is all about closing with an &#8220;altar call&#8221; and trying to convert the one non-Christian who&#8217;s there, but then I&#8217;m not sure if I really understood what you said at all.</p>
<p>Tom</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Cottrell</title>
		<link>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-4311</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Cottrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 01:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://averyfineline.com/2007/01/16/the-monestry-discussion-chapter-3412/#comment-4311</guid>
		<description>"contrite sinner’s prayer"  What is that supposed to mean?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;contrite sinner’s prayer&#8221;  What is that supposed to mean?</p>
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