Comments on: Tracks and vocals

By: Lee Berry

Lee Berry — Sat, 14 Jul 2007 13:34:20 +0000

Go all the way back to Dallas and the Festival of American Gospel Music - horrible, horrible, horrible! The worst sound I have EVER heard from any group or groups, and one of my favorite groups were singing that night. Quality sound DOES make all the difference.

Thank you Rhonda for helping us make a difference!

By: Rick Sherry

Rick Sherry — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 04:41:43 +0000

I run into this problem doing karaoke. It is common problem that I ahve found varies due to the recording quality of the backing music used. Regardlesss of the source the song track I use is determined by the company that records and prodiuces the tracks. I personally am a big fan of karaoke CDS made by Soundchoice they seem to have the best quality instumental recordings avaailable.
While this may not be the same problem that you are encountering it may be a suggestion to find better quality recordings of the music used in your venues. They also have combonation mixers and amps that adjust everything automatically for you.
Therae are many pieces of equipment in the electronics industry to solve any problem you maybe encountering.

By: Bee Flat

Bee Flat — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 18:41:39 +0000

This fruitless arguement has existed since the creation of the microphone, yet it doesn’t go without merit. Now, more than ever, sound systmems have become more advanced & more complicated. So now it’s more critical than ever to have competent sound technicians.

Here is my two cents worth . . . . as far as a live performance goes:
1. “Never” use stacked vocals.
2. Never mix left & right channels distinctively dissimilar - Yes, even the untrained ear can tell the difference & it produces a lopsided sound.
3. “Always” mix vocal gain above the track . . . . All SG listeners come to hear the voices . . . blended into harmony. If they can’t hear the vocal distinction you won’t be invited back !
4. Never attempt to administer the sound from the stage. A proficient sound technician is a necessary must & they must direct the sound from the audience perspective.

5. Have all your tracks mastered from a noteworthy source. You should never skimp in this area, and the cost will be worth it.

Sincerely,
B-flat

By: Howland Sharpe

Howland Sharpe — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 03:52:19 +0000

I agree with Alan about the importance of a group having their tracks mastered, but as I mentioned before, if compression/limiting has been used when the individual tracks were originally cut in the studio, and then additional compression used at the point of the 2-mix, there is almost nothing left to master at the mastering lab. It becomes simply a “wall of sound,” or put another way: a solid block waveform on a computer monitor. The more “produced” the track, (more instrumentation, drum loops, percussion, multiple guitar passes, horns, pads, etc., etc….) the more difficult it will be to get a live vocal to “cut through” when performed live.

On the other hand, maybe I’m just getting old…

By: 2miles

2miles — Sun, 01 Jul 2007 18:37:55 +0000

Interesting that someone complimented the Perry’s on their sound. I was never able to hear Loren Harris when he led out. I told them this on a few occasions. All I could hear was Libby. Brian Free same way. I can’t understand what they are saying…I don’t think it is my hearing because other groups on the same night using the same sound system I could hear fine…

By: Alan

Alan — Sat, 30 Jun 2007 03:01:22 +0000

This has been a fascinating thread. Lots of great and helpful comments have been shared. May I add my two cents? I spent some years as a studio engineer, and will be the first to admit that studio and live sound are two different disciplines, which both use some similar equipment. I guess over the years, I’ve invested even more than I needed to in good sound equipment for my live solo concerts. When I carry most of what I can, for venues up to 1000 seats, what I have with me represents many thousands of dollars of equipment. If my own sound guy hasn’t come with me, I try to spend at the least a full hour with the folk(s) who have been provided for me. One major point that’s been made has been on mastering your tracks. If your tracks have come from numerous projects, there’s bound to be some real discrepancy in volume, bass, and highs. Whatever monies you’ll invest in mastering tracks is absolutely more than worth it. I do have to weigh in on IEM’s. I think they don’t need to be factor in the overall sound. Some of you feel that the advent of them has harmed house sound. Maybe they do for some groups that run sound from the stage; but when run properly, they do save our ears, and they really shouldn’t be a factor in the house blend. Apples and oranges. Bottom line to me is master your tracks, and spend as long as humanly possible doing sound checks. And if you can afford a sound person, by all means have them out in the audience! On a final practical note, physiologically, the bones in our ears harden over time, and the older one is, the worse music that’s too loud hurts. The art of this is in finding a median level that’s loud enough, but not too loud. If tracks are mastered, all that’s really left is the subtle nuancing of the vocalist(s) mikes, and that makes everything a lot easier.

By: bgc

bgc — Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:46:30 +0000

Faith-You are exactly right, I always see The Talley’s when they are near and the sound never changes, no matter the venue. Yes they stack the vocals a bit but at least it is done in a way to enhance and not over power. What a let down to see a “top name” group out there stacking and mixing from the stage. They never seem satisfied, always changing things while singing, it really takes away from the message that is when you can actually understand the lyrics. Take a lesson from the Talley’s, hire a sound man and let him drive the bus and work the product table. If you can’t afford that you might as well let the house control the sound.

By: Faith

Faith — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 23:28:10 +0000

My two cents…
The Talley Trio have a soundman, Greg Shockley, and they always sound great. While they would sound even better with a live band, it is nice to have a group whose tracks/stacks are clear and don’t overpower the singers.

By: Josh Hoevelmann

Josh Hoevelmann — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:28:47 +0000

Actually Gaither’s tour is not using line arrays, at least not as of last November. He’s using a combination of powered Meyer trap boxes including the Ultra Series and the C series(UPA’s, CQ’s, and others)
However, you’re right….they make line arrays very compact now and even small versions are pole mountable and/or stage stackable. I think line arrays would be very advantageous for many of the venues SG artists have to play…..deep and wide.

By: burt

burt — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 13:40:18 +0000

Bottom line…you need quality and QUANTITY in sound equipment to achieve optimal performance. How many SG groups use line array systems now? Probably only Gaither. You can’t go in a 1500 seat auditorium with two powered Mackies and expect to sound your best.

By: Derek

Derek — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:48:56 +0000

The old floor wedges also have another advantage when it comes to house sound. I went to a concert featuring two SG quartets. Each used their own system…one had floor monitors, the other IEM’s. I’m a front-and-center kinda guy…I want to see their tonsils when they sing so naturally I was just that, front and center. Quartet #1 with floor monitors sounded great! Quartet #2 with IEM’s didn’t. Why? Because I was smack dab in front of the sub and the mains were way over on each side of the stage. I could hardly understand anything they said or sang. I finally figured out it was because I was hearing the floor monitors from group #1 that was filling the void there in the center. Needles to say, I enjoyed group #1 much better, even though group #2 was who I really was there to see!

By: Matthew Moore

Matthew Moore — Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:38:04 +0000

I am sure Brian is very competent when it comes to sound. My point was that the room they were in required a very delicate balance of frequencies. I have seen many groups there and the sound is very difficult to get right. Also, I happen to love bass sound. I have a set of 12″subs in my car. However, the way the acoustics affected the bass sound made it overpowering. No disrespect to Lile or Free. It was a difficult situation.

By: thom

thom — Thu, 28 Jun 2007 14:31:51 +0000

Brian Free normally does a good job of mixing their sound. Except that I like to hear more piano. - and I have told him. lol

For my taste, most groups over use the sub-woofer. Maybe it’s just my aging ear, but in many cases it is just an unpleasant vibration.

The Perry’s are another group that do a good job with sound - they have their sound man setting out in the audience mixing the house sound and it does make a difference.

tmr

By: Stephen A. Thompson

Stephen A. Thompson — Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:53:59 +0000

Hey guys,

It looks like we all have varying opinions of what makes for a good live sound. I am a professional recording engineer as well as a vocalist/musican in a sg group. We usually run our sound from the stage, with no complaints. Occasionally, when we sing at venues with a quality house system, I will give the house engineer a line. I have only had one occasion where the FOH engineer ask that the lines be split or given to him seperately. If they know to ask, them more than likely they know what they are doing. Otherwise, it may be the only guy who hasn’t broke the newest tech gidget.

The big thing is to remember that there are two groups of people you need to satisfy as the soundman. The performers on stage need to be happy with what they are hearing in order to effectively communicate THE MESSAGE to the audience. Then the audience should be able to hear the lyrics AND music.

I think that the reason most people complain is that the overall volume is too loud. Whether it’s the bass that’s too loud or the track or the overall volume. The lyrics need to be heard. I have been blessed by groups with a good spirit/message with a sub-par sound. Not saying that I didn’t think about wanting to adjust their sound.

I have “set” the inital sound for groups buying a quality PA system and “taught” them how to run it. The biggest thing is that most people with poor sound simply don’t know what they are doing. They get too much equipment (I’ve done this too). So and so says that a compressor would help level out your vocals/mix. If you don’t know what it does and how to use it, then it’s worthless. Actually, it’s a detriment to your sound.

I bet no one ever complained about Hovie and his boys sound. It was simple. That is the best advice I can give. If you don’t know exacly what you are doing running your sound just remember KISS…Keep It Simple Singers.

-Stephen

By: Matthew Moore

Matthew Moore — Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:49:43 +0000

I just saw BFA last week. Brian Free was mixing the sound from the stage with the speakers IN FRONT OF HIM. How can he hear what the audience hears when the speakers are in front of him. Also, I think the artist needs to take into account the venue. BFA was at an Igloo church. You know, the big dome shaped room. They set the huge sub right in the middle of the front. The low end was so loud that it was all you could hear. It mudded up the rest of the sound. I would have rather not had the sub, and enjoyed the true sound of the group. Side note: Brian Free made a big deal about all of the bass sound coming from Jeremy, not the system. Um, with a $500 condenser mic, 1000 watt amp, and a enormous sub box my 2 year old could make the floor rattle.