Criticism and commentary on southern gospel music
From the comments:
Those were the days. It was edgy. Now it’s just plastic.
2nd opinion on Gold City at Higher Ground « Coomer Cove on 29 Sep 2007 at 7:42 pm
[…] 2nd opinion on Gold City at Higher Ground Posted on September 29, 2007 by coomercove I just read this quote in a comment over at A Very Fine Line. My wife and I attended a Gold City concert in Kingsport, TN Sunday evening and they were absolutely spectacular. […]
I think the quote is thought provoking. Last night I stayed up half the night listening to old Amy Grant stuff and watching the Gaither video, “What a Time.” All of this took place in the late-80’s early 90’s. Not quite as edgy, but less plastic. A little canned music, but good music and lots of fun on the late-90’s Gaither video. Grant’s songs were modern and different but with a message that was clear. Nothing much like that today. I saw her in person once and the atmosphere was electric. With a live band.
I have to believe that the soul of southern gospel (not that Amy was ever sg) was damaged when the old saints died and the young talent headed for country, p&w, or off the road. What we have now is Greater Vision sounding like Greater Visions with choir and Mercy’s Mark in eight parts when there are only four on stage.
All things go in cycles, and this too will pass.
Posted 25 Sep 2007 at 8:15 pm ¶
Howland Sharpe wrote:
The current make-the-record-sound-perfect emphasis has ruined some of what drew me to the Southern Gospel music genre. It’s akin to watching a rock band at one of the corporate-sponsored venues at Disneyworld cover a Rolling Stone’s song. Yeah, it sounds like them and technically, it’s tighter. But there is that intangible “something” that’s missing.
There is no such thing as “blend” anymore in recordings — each singer in a group is either recorded individually or multiple mics are set up with each singer recorded on a separate track. Blend is now determined by mix engineers. Pitch and “pocket” too.
Listen to Amy Grant’s first recordings. Are there pitch problems? Yeah, plenty. But there is something indefinable….some vulnerability, that winds its way right to your heart.
Southern Gospel music, both on recordings and live used to have this. Now, with the practice of using sanitized, pre-recorded vocal stacks in concerts and fewer and fewer groups using live players, there are less and less serendipitous moments….those amazing “moments” (not the choreographed, Gaither kind) that dazzle.
There was a time when groups would perform songs slightly different from night to night. If a group came to your church on the last date of a 2 week tour, they played everything a little faster, like trail horses catching a glimpse of the barn. And there was something magical about hearing your church’s piano, that out-of-tune Chickering, being played harder and better than anything you’ve ever heard in your life as the piano player pounded out the introduction to “Oh What A Happy Day.”
Like a computer-generated oil painting compared to one by an old, nearly blind Claude Monet, the current sanitized Gospel music is simply missing something.
Posted 26 Sep 2007 at 2:43 am ¶
I wholeheartedly agree in regards to the use of stacks. I have discussed this before. If someone is using perhaps one voice over for a short part of the song because it just sounds empty and a chord needs to be filled out, that is one thing. When you listen to a group, usually of local variety, and the soloist sounds not quite up to par until the chorus and the “rest of the group” sings sounding amazingly like a choir, then we have a problem. If the soloist, again usually of the local variety, is singing a verse and then the chorus comes along and you hear familiar voices in the back ground (like GVB, Booth Brothers, the Hoppers, etc.) we now have an issue. The issue is integrity and genuineness.
We as humans long to be as perfect as possible and SG singers are no different. So we record and try to make things sound, well, perfect. Then we use the stacks to make us sound, uhm, perfect.
My brothers and I get a chuckle at the beginning of a concert when one of us cracks. What happens is many times we are “the feature” group (I prefer to make HIM the feature). Our time to warm up long passed we have now cooled down. It takes about one song to get to where we should be. Usually during that song we take turns at different spots in the song for a little break in our voice. You know what? I’m not perfect! Lord knows my brothers know this about me. You know what else? Our audience knows this about me. They also accept it because they know it to be true of themselves. I can choose to get upset and let it ruin the evening, I can choose to stack everything and be perfect and probably lose one of the connections with my audience in the process, or I can choose to be genuine and move on to an awesome evening of worship and ministry.
We all have the same choice. We will make our decision based upon what our goal is. If the goal is looking good to everybody on the outside we will probably ruin our evening. If the goal is to see if we can somehow become famous and national, we will probably spend more money and time making stacked tracks, if the goal is ministry we will deal with our imperfections and aim for the heart rather than the ears.
That which proceeds out of the mouth (and sound systems) comes forth from the heart. The only chance an audience member will ever get to look into our heart is by what is sung, said, and acted out on and off stage. Think about it before you make the decision.
Posted 26 Sep 2007 at 1:48 pm ¶
I remember in the day that I enjoyed going to hear The Paynes, The Hinsons, The Hemphills, and the Perrys because they had a live band that was kicking. It was always Drums, Bass, Piano, Lead Guitar and/or Steel guitar.
Here’s what I liked about that day. The musicians played like the album most of the time. Then, they would through in a band fill or something uniquely different from the album that made it even better! I was not disappointed in the group for not sounding like the album. Instead, I was disappointed in the album not sounding like the live band I had heard. It made me want to go hear the group live because of the eliments of being different, better, and pleasantly surprised by how the musicians had improved the music.
Sometimes you still find this to be true vocally as well. Have you ever heard a singer sing a particular line with a different move than what he/she did on the CD? I’m usually thinking, “Man, I wish it was that way on the CD. It’s much better in person.” You do not find this sort of thing much anymore, and sometimes I find it going in the opposite direction. In other words, there are times I wished they had sung it the way they did on the CD.
Vocally, these moves evolve. Remember, when the artist recorded the song the first time, it was fresh and the artist had not known the song too long. However, after singing it 3 to 4 times a weekend, some singers evolve into some better moves and slight changes in how they do it. Stacks take away the factor of improving the harmonies or moves.
One group I used to record with used to make one pass of stacks, but we never used them live. When I would go back and try to sing with the original recording, it wasn’t the same. What we did on stage was much better.
Posted 26 Sep 2007 at 3:01 pm ¶
Not Ernie Haase wrote:
I thought a heading of “comments” might be an appropriate place to post this…
My wife and I attended a Gold City concert in Kingsport, TN Sunday evening and they were absolutely spectacular. Jonathan and Daniel were calling the songs as they went (spontaneous enough that they once had to briefly confer on what song to do next). But overall they were fantastic.
Aaron McCune is turning into one of the best bass singers in the business and Steve Ladd has improved tremendously during his tenure with GC. Jonathan and Daniel were very solid.
We saw Gold City about a year ago in Crozet, VA and frankly, they were terrible. Aaron drowned out the entire group all night with the subwoofer. Steve was sharp all night. Jonathan, seeming to sense that their sound was bad, sang loud and overly powerful all night (trying to cover up Steve, I guess).
But the improvement was remarkable and they are perhaps as good as they’ve been in several years.
Posted 26 Sep 2007 at 3:24 pm ¶
I was first attracted to SG by the joyful sound of quartet vocals. When I buy a ticket to a quartet performance, I don’t require them to provide me with a full choral/orchestral experience. The groups seem to think that’s what the consumers want. I just listened to the CD of the “best” SG songs of 2007, and I heard a remarkable array of french horns and strings. I understand and forgive the use of canned music (bass, drums — just the bare necessities) to augment a quartet’s sound now and then. But as an ignorant layman, I believe that if a quartet needs a canned orchestra to ramp up every song, there’s a problem in the selection of songs and/or arrangements. In short, I can forgive sparing use of canned stuff, but groups need to be careful not to get carried away.
Posted 26 Sep 2007 at 4:21 pm ¶
In response to #4:
I thought “Once Upon A Cross” by the Mark Trammell Trio was an ok song when I heard it on radio. I heard Mark sing it twice at NQC and he blew me away with his interpretation of his solo lines. It just wasn’t there on the recording IMO.
Posted 26 Sep 2007 at 5:43 pm ¶
Marty Funderburk wrote:
I hear all these comments and don’t disagree, but the challenge I face, as a producer is - to be really be a purist, I would have to take whatever is performed and just go with it. No fixes.
If a singer doesn’t quite hit the note, I can literally use my mouse to draw it to perfection with Anteras Auto Tune software. If a group is sloppy with their timing and precision, I can nudge phrases in ProTools or line up all the vocals perfectly using VocAlign software. It’s pretty amazing stuff. Most everything you hear on secular radio has been processed using such software. Southern Gospel has now tapped into the technology and I’m not sure we can ever go back. Even “live” albums are full of post-production fixes.
And regarding the matter of vocal stacks - when done properly they should barely be detectable. I don’t use them to make 4 voices sound like 8. I try to duplicate, as accurately as possible, the original vocal pass so that the effect is one of “chorusing” (a fattening of the overall vocals that occurs because of subtle pitch variations.) Then, I mix those stacked vocals way back so that the effect is more felt than consciously heard. I encourage groups who chose to use stacked tracks in concert to adhere to this same mix. Unfortunately, most groups out there have way too much of the stacked vocals in their track mix and that’s why credibility and believability suffers so.
It’s really like a girl putting on makeup (UPC’ers use your imagination here). If she’s not a natural beauty she may feel the need to slap on a little more than she should. If she’s a girl of modest means, she may have to buy the cheap stuff at WalMart and it may not be the right shade. If she puts it on in a dimly lit room, she may have it smeared in places she doesn’t realize. But still, she wants to look like the girls on the covers of all the magazines, so she creates an illusion that she hopes will do the trick. Making records is really no different. Who will be the first to step away from the new technology and be seen (heard) without their “makeup” on?
Someone once said that records are like sausage. Everyone loves the end result, but you wouldn’t want to see how they’re made.
Posted 26 Sep 2007 at 10:15 pm ¶
Records are like sausages…now that’s a great analogy!!! I’m still laughing…
Posted 27 Sep 2007 at 2:04 am ¶
Marty is right on the money. And I’ve heard some of the amazing things he has done on custom projects. He is a master of the mouse!
I would add one more thing: many groups mix their stacks with lots of reverb. If you absolutely have to use stacks, a “dry” stack works better for live use because the room itself provides the ambience. It makes the fake sound more real.
Regarding “stepping away from the technology,” there is some group of individuals out there that, just to prove that they’re as good as they say they are, will break free of the ProTools stranglehold. They probably won’t be embraced immediately by the rest of Southern Gospel Music.
Over 20 years ago a gospel acappella group was turned down for a record deal by Calvary Records, a major label at the time. Their sound was different than anything that had come before it and frankly, the gospel labels didn’t know where to place them categorically. It took a secular label to see that they had far-reaching potential. The group? Take 6.
Posted 27 Sep 2007 at 2:07 am ¶
I so enjoy reading this site. Helps me keep “involved” in the industry now that I don’t get to trave anymore.
Just wanted to make some observations. I had a great weekend of concert events this past weekend and I wanted to comment on them.
First - I saw THE HOPPERS in concert and it was the first time in over 4 years that I had seen them outside of a “Gaither” event. They were AWESOME !! They took their time. They seemed to enjoy themselves and sharing with us all and the concert. Kim looks and sounds flawless - and blew everyone away. Dean is one of the most underated lead singers in the business. Why he is continually passed over by the awards process, amazes me. His control and abilities are amazing. Connie and Claude are in a “Class” all their own. Noone can top them as far as I am concerned. Michael - might suggest you don’t hit the drums quite so hard just after a serious alter call ! It might just scare the devil out of somebody - like those sitting around me ! ha ! ha !
I then had a chance to see Greater Vision in person. Apparently Jason was having a bad night - even surrounded by family in the audience. It AMAZES me how he was acclaimed ” FAVORITE TENOR” - when he just can’t sing as far as I am concerned. I sat their almost wanting to cover my ears when he did anything on his own. The only thing he remotely did all night was his new solo from the new CD - “You Can” and I think that comes from the song itself being so powerful. Rodney and Gerald were awesome - I just longed for smooth tenor voice and sound that they had with Chris Allman. I bought their “reunion - Now and Then” project and the quality of tenor “sangin” by Chris Allman on that project FAR EXCEEDS what Jason can even attempt. I am sure Jason is a great guy personally - but his talent leaves me - and I am sure many more - wanting more quality. VERY NASAL when he attempts to hit higher register. Chris Allman should return to GV - and I am sure they would ROCKET above and beyond what they are at this point.
I then watched Brian Free & Assurance on Front Row Live. I think Brian really has a solid group now. The new Bass Singer is awesome. BUT - what confuses me most - is why the “baritone” singer had more leads on their songs then the HIGHLY QUALIFIED lead Singer Bill. His talent is completely underused in my opinion. Though I tend not to be a real big BF&A fan, I think they are better than they have been in a long long time. Brian - LET BILL SING LEAD more than he does now ! Let the baritone sing baritone.
Please note - these are all my opinions. You can agree or disagree with me - that’s the joy of reading this site - everyone gets to state their own opinion.
Doug - Thank you for bring this site to us all.
Posted 27 Sep 2007 at 1:00 pm ¶
Hey Marty, drop Antares and switch to Melodyne. It’s better:)
Posted 27 Sep 2007 at 2:38 pm ¶
Re #8: Thanks for the insight, Marty. It’s interesting to an outsider like me.
I expect studio recordings will be tweaked. I’m surprised that live recordings are also.
As I said earlier, my problem is the canned music that overwhelms many concert performances. This has been discussed on this site many times. Any sign that the SG decision makers are listening to this kind of discussion and acting on it?
Posted 27 Sep 2007 at 3:08 pm ¶
Marty — thanks for the great analogy. “Who will be the first to step away from the new technology and be seen (heard) without their “makeup” on?” Well-said.
Howland — not trying to just defend Calvary Records, but in fairness to them and any other predominately s/g label, Take 6 would not have been a proper fit. They don’t/didn’t/never tried to appeal to a predominately s/g audience. They’re jazz/pop. If Calvary turned them down, they were wise to do so. Warner Alliance (who they several albums with) was a much better fit. Word Distribution took them to the CBA market and Warner took them to the rest of the world. I’m not sure any s/g label could have done that in 1988.
Posted 27 Sep 2007 at 3:21 pm ¶
Edguy, I agree that Take 6 wouldn’t have been a great fit for Calvary Records, but not because they were jazz/pop. At the time they were doing almost all religious songs (I believe they were/are Seventh Day Adventist). My point was that Calvary and other Gospel labels that passed on them perhaps didn’t see the awesome talent of Take 6 because their style was so different.
What I would love to see is a group that pushes the boundaries…something different…something outside of the box.
Does anyone remember when there was a huge sonic difference in various recordings? The Rambos sounded FAR different from the Oak Ridge Boys or the Inspirations. Now almost everything “sounds” the same. The band sounds the same, the reverbs sound the same, the compressed sound is the same, the pitch-correction is the same, the vibratos are the same…and I suwannee, even the voices are beginning to all sound alike!
Where are the Vestals, the Duane Allens, the Jim Murrays? They were folks that within 2 seconds of hearing them you knew who they were.
Man, I’m looking in the mirror and seeing Roy Pauley again….
Posted 27 Sep 2007 at 11:51 pm ¶
Howland, we have Melodyne and are using it some, but I actually prefer the Waves tuner over all of them.
Art, if you are referring to anything that is prerecorded as “canned music” then I’m not sure how artists could employ less of it in their concerts. The only alternative would be to have all live music (a band) or, as some do, use a live piano playing with prerecorded tracks. Some songs really need orchestration. I can’t imagine The Cathedrals’ “Symphony of Praise” project without the symphony. What would “Champion of Love” have been without the soaring strings? We’ve tried to recapture that excitement ever since. Every time I heard the Cathedrals perform that song my adrenaline went through the roof. I never questioned their judgement for using “canned” music. In my imagination they were surrounded by the London Philharmonic and the little church we were in was magically transported to a great concert hall. I’m so glad they had the guts and the wherewithall to create that musical moment for posterity - even though they could never afford to recreate it “live” night after night with a live orchestra. Southern Gospel has become more about the singers than the players. BlueGrass is still about both. That’s why The Isaacs and Doyle Lawson & Quicksilver are so refreshing to experience in a SG lineup. In a perfect world we could have it all.
One the reasons projects sound the same these days is the fact that the same studio musicians play on nearly everyone’s project. Lazy producers rely on them to create intros/outros and turn arounds on the fly. When musicians do it day-in-and-day-out they might tend to get stale and uninspired - especially when tracking another predictable SG toe tapper. An active producer will script melodic motifs (hooks) and creative instrument layerings that will help insure that the accompaniment has purpose and momentum, and that the results are memorable. Musicians are hired to play, not necessarily create and produce. Thank God many are gracious and often come up with strokes of genious than even the best of producers would never have imagined.
Posted 28 Sep 2007 at 11:36 am ¶
Or for that matter, let’s go to the modern classics of the 80’s (where I cut my teeth on gospel music)…. Gold City, the Cathedrals, the Hinsons…. No matter what, you knew who you were hearing. Ivan and Brian, Danny, Mark, Glen & George, Kenny….
I hear groups today, and all I hear is “generic Statesmen cover number 4, baritone lead with tenor switch on modulation.”
Perhaps part of the problem lies in the constant personelle shuffling. One year, this group may have this tenor, the next year, another tenor, another year, a new baritone. There is NO consistency anymore. Gold City saw the same lineup for a good 6 or 7 years, the Cathedrals had Danny and Mark out front for 6 years (the only change was Roger and Gerald playing musical piano benches). And the Hinsons only had two major changes in their entire career - Chris Hawkins-Freeman replacing Yvonne (who later came back!), and Bo (I think) taking over for Larry when he left.
It is so rare to find a group who stays stable these days. As soon as a group finds an audience, someone leaves. The replacement has to win those listeners over and show that they have what it takes. Either the audience will like what they hear, or they will follow the person who left.
Probably the best example ever of stability was the Statler Brothers. They had ONE major change in the early 80’s, and it was born out of necessity due to Lew DeWitt’s health. From the moment the Statlers hit in the 60’s, it was always the same four singers.
Posted 28 Sep 2007 at 5:30 pm ¶
Gospel music has alot of changes because the groups don’t pay enough to live on. On the road expenses are bad, and to support a family.
Posted 28 Sep 2007 at 10:10 pm ¶
Eric Hinson also sang with the Original Hinsons for a short while.
Posted 29 Sep 2007 at 3:34 am ¶
Great thoughts marty
About the tracks sounding stale…i was listening to a quartet’s project the other night…and the same licks/intros were being used throughout another qt’s new project. It was then that it hit me….hire new musicians for the project. Of course, probably 8 out of 10 wouldn’t recognize it…but when one song sounds like the other it gets old. One thing i can say about the hoppers new project it has a FRESH sound (except for yahewah…which of course is their “jerusalem” for the project) So does mike lefevre’s new project (which has justin ellis doin some key work).
Posted 29 Sep 2007 at 3:42 pm ¶
Jim E. Davis wrote:
The Isaacs were at our local fair last night and it reminded me again how fresh and exciting live music makes a concert. The weather was nippy (for California) and the event ran a half hour late but the standing room only crowd was riveted to their seats and just couldn’t get enough.
I like the idea of one night with a live band. The NQC would once again sell out Freedom Hall on Friday nights if the fans could experience an evening of real musicians. Even Barnum and Bailey understand this concept and I always find a seat close to the orchestra so I can watch them play. The extra seats sold would more than pay the expense of the players.
Posted 01 Oct 2007 at 1:20 am ¶
NQC wouldn’t be able to charge more for the tickests next to the orchestra, as they’ve already sold P.S.L.’s (Permanent Seat Licenses) for the closest seats in the house. I’m sure there are other possibilities to help offset the additional cost.
If the board is as wise as we hope they are, they’ll think up something.
Posted 01 Oct 2007 at 4:27 pm ¶
[…] 2nd opinion on Gold City at Higher Ground Posted on September 29, 2007 by coomercove I just read this quote in a comment over at A Very Fine Line. My wife and I attended a Gold City concert in Kingsport, TN Sunday evening and they were absolutely spectacular. […] :
They’re right, Gold City was about as polished as i’ve ever seen them. They didnt put on, they just sang! To me they are singing with the same power that the 80’s group had. They kept things moving, they were of one mind. All of them brought to the stage their personal ministry but
(as Jonathan said a couple years back) they were presenting as one “unit”. Steve Ladd is hands down better than Brian Free.
Posted 01 Oct 2007 at 5:10 pm ¶
“…To me they are singing with the same power that the 80’s group had. They kept things moving, they were of one mind. All of them brought to the stage their personal ministry but
(as Jonathan said a couple years back) they were presenting as one “unit”. Steve Ladd is hands down better than Brian Free. ”
Posted 01 Oct 2007 at 5:46 pm ¶
Marty: Thanks so much for your insights into the recording process. As a media production major, I always am fascinated about the process, equipment, players…everything, really, you guys use to create music.
And as an ex-radio type, I also appreciate your attention to detail in production. It was tough to compete with secular stations for advertisers because a lot of the sg music produced for a long time didn’t have the “pop” that other stations had. Even when we got better outboard gear to compress and boost our signal, many times we sounded worse because that equipment brought out all the production flaws that a person couldn’t hear though a boombox.
Keep up the great work, and thanks for the wisdom.
Posted 01 Oct 2007 at 6:19 pm ¶
Back to the original comment. What was edgy? The whole Jesus Music Movement? Sure there was some great passion in the music back then, but there was also a fair amount of cheese. At least in my town, Barry McGuire’s “Cosmic Cowboy” got a TON of airplay. I’m sure that’s not the best example, but as time goes by, I’m sure we all have our rose colored shades on for the music of our past.
And what is “Plastic” now? Sure, some of mainstream CCM has an element of artificiality, but doesn’t our whole Christian Subculture? Check out bands like Leeland and Seventh Day Slumber - they are just as “real” as Keith Green ever was.
Posted 03 Oct 2007 at 12:47 pm ¶
Trevor Haley wrote:
You cannot blame everything that’s wrong with Southern Gospel music on pre-recorded tracks. I think they are getting way too much blame. Most of the major acts on the road today, I’m talking about secular music, employ some sort of pre-recorded music. They may just be there to augment a live band, but they are there. Also, keep in mind most of the music programs you see on TV are using pre-recorded tracks. Albeit they do it a lot more discreetly than SG artists. Someone that may appear to be playing his or her heart out, is either not plugged in, or just moving their hands across the keys.
The person that believes a return to completely live music will rejuvenate NQC is not looking at the facts.
Posted 03 Oct 2007 at 6:06 pm ¶
Gerald Rallins wrote:
Steve Ladd is “hands-down” better than Brian Free? Someone needs to have their head examined…
They’re both good, but to say the younger Ladd is “hands-down” better than the most awarded tenor in SG history is…umm…inaccurate.
Posted 04 Oct 2007 at 5:55 pm ¶
The request wasn’t for a complete return to “live” music - but one night out of six isn’t too much to ask.
I think it would encourage more groups to consider using musicians. Not only that, but these session players would enjoy reconnecting with all the artists they have worked with and visa versa. Aspiring young musicians would die for a chance to talk with their favorite Nashville studio drummer, bass and keyboard player. Personally, I would find it fascinating to see Bobby All, Kelly Back, Jason Webb, Craig Nelson, Otis Forrest, Randy Miller, etc. once again.
One band would not be feasible as there are multiple styles and six hours would be rather long. Perhaps a combination of players that would make up four to six bands.
Rejuvenate NQC? I don’t know but it’s worthy of discussion.
Posted 05 Oct 2007 at 12:51 am ¶
Mike McIlwain wrote:
Also, why couldn’t some groups sing and play. The Florida Boys did this, especially during the Tommy Atwood era when Tommy would play fiddle and guitar and sing tenor, Les would sing lead and play bass, Glen would play lead guitar and sing baritone, and Billy Todd would sing bass and sometimes play guitar. Darrell always played piano and sang a solo once in a while. Many rock, bluegrass, and folk groups sing and play. Why can’t SG folks do this?
Posted 05 Oct 2007 at 1:57 am ¶
The paying audiences will decide the live musician issue.
If they are happy with artists singing with tracks they will continue to pay the ticket price.
It would seem that the general sg audience is easier to please than other types of music.
One question is: Would there be larger audiences if they thought they would see and hear live music?
If talent buyers and promoters believed this then they would insist on live music on their programs.
Not very likely though that NQC would think that there would be more tickets sold if there were all live music.
Southern gospel music has probably gone too far with tracks now to ever go back to live music.
Posted 05 Oct 2007 at 3:18 am ¶
Ben Harris wrote:
NQC was up this year quite a bit over last year and the year before…so it seems to me they are at least on the right track. Now to tracks vs live musicians. I went to a Gaither concert here in Nashville a few years ago. Everyone used tracks except the Crabb Family. And bless their heart, the sound for them with live instruments was horrible next to the pre-recorded tracks. Of course the piano was live…but that was about it. I like a live piano with tracks as it seems to be the best of both worlds. When I was with Ronnie Milsap in the ’80’s, he used tracks on some songs with his band playing along. The audience never knew the difference.
Posted 05 Oct 2007 at 3:56 am ¶
I think NQC needs to try one night of live music and see what happens. If they don’t do it on church night (Wednesday), I betcha they practically sell the place out, if it’s properly advertised.
Posted 05 Oct 2007 at 4:21 am ¶
jason pearl wrote:
There was a poll recently on the Singing News Website that asked if it would be worth a higher ticket price if there was live musicians and a surprising number just said “no.” I guess that response answers why there’s very few live bands.
I’ll say this, though, if a quartet doesn’t even have a piano player they seem like they’re going really cheap.
Soloists with not one instrument onstage are astronomically boring!
Posted 05 Oct 2007 at 3:22 pm ¶
Brandon Coomer wrote:
A soloist with full band on stage is boring.
Posted 05 Oct 2007 at 6:36 pm ¶
# 33 - remove “with full band” and I agree wholeheartedly.
Posted 05 Oct 2007 at 10:24 pm ¶
Just putting in my 2 cents worth…which is actually worth less than 2 cents…
We basically do the same thing using both tracks and live music(#32). Our tracks are split, so on the right side of the track it’s just acoustic guitars, steel guitar, violin, etc., basically everything we don’t have on stage, and on the left side is the click for the three of us to keep up with. Dad plays split keys so he plays piano with his right hand and bass with his left, then I play lead and Greg is on drums.
It just gives us a bigger sound…but then again we do play about five or six songs per night with just the three of us, that’s out of a typical hour long show. I wish we could do a full band all the time but 1.) It’s very expenisve and 2.) We struggle with space on our bus as it is with 8 adults and 2 kids…I think almost every group wishes they could travel with a full band but there are those two big problems you run in to and that just results in performing with the most used musician in SG…the Instant Replay =)
Posted 06 Oct 2007 at 1:09 am ¶
Wow……a soloist is just boring on stage????? Wellll, then some of us should go ahead and wrap it up, I guess??????
Posted 06 Oct 2007 at 2:41 am ¶
SG Artist wrote:
Hey # 30, I used to sing with Tommy Atwood when he was with The Bibletones and you brought back great memories of him playing the filddle! He could really saw that thing too! Good times…
Posted 06 Oct 2007 at 5:13 am ¶
Aaron Swain wrote:
In response to #4: Absolutely. I get that feeling whenever I hear The Cathedrals’ “Step Into The Water” studio version, and then hear it live on their Reunion project.
In response to #36: Depends on who the soloist is. I’d pay to see Ivan Parker or Mark Lowry (actually, I don’t even think Mark is solo anymore…), but some soloists bore me to death.
Posted 06 Oct 2007 at 1:46 pm ¶
HEY! It’s been almost two weeks since Avery started this thread…and there hasn’t been a word from him since.
D’ya suppose he’s OK?
Was there a rapture, he’s gone and all of us are still here?
Did someone hurt his feelings?
Posted 07 Oct 2007 at 1:38 am ¶
if you look at it in the secular music business no one gives a 2nd look to a soloist and a live band…they enjoy. However, in SG its the opposite. The majority would not listen to a soloist too much. Elvis was a soloist, but had a band and backup singers. I think that a lot of Sg soloists are just not entertaining or have variety. In my opinion, some of the best soloists are Mike Bowling, Jason Crabb, david phelps. I enjoy ivan parker, but not sure if i would an entire concert
Posted 07 Oct 2007 at 2:07 am ¶
#39, Singing with Tommy Atwood had to be a great honor. He is such a classy Christian gentleman. My family lives in his region in Southwest Alabama. Tommy is still going strong today as a soloist.
Posted 07 Oct 2007 at 5:41 pm ¶
To Mike (#30): You said, “…rock, folk, and bluegrass groups sing and play. Why can’t SG folks do this?” The answer is simple. Most SG folks CAN’T play an instrument (or play one well). They are only vocalists…plus it’s so much easier to only sing and not make the effort to also play well while singing. Some just like to do what’s easiest or more convenient. Did I really say that?!?
To Brandon Coomer (#35): Friend, you obviously haven’t seen David Phelps (with his full band) in concert! One word: WOW! WOW! WOW! (That was one word…uh, three times…sorry)!
Most SG soloists’ concerts have the tendency to totally bore me, even though they’re recordings may be top-notch. I would have to say that the ones I’m thinking of would only improve their concert appeal BY having a live band. Yet there ARE are a few who have that “certain something”, a gift of interpreting a song, along with great vocals and stage presence. who would blow me away in concert with or without a live band, such as Mitchell Jon, Soyna Issacs, Taranda Green, David Phelps (of course), just to name a few. There are also several “lesser known’s” (soloists)who have the same gift of ministering effectively with or without a live band. A lot of it is just interpreting the song well. But still, in most cases, give me a great band (please leave your cheesey bands at home)!
Posted 07 Oct 2007 at 9:06 pm ¶
To AD #38: There are soloists, then there are soloists. The “center stage statue” gets to about the third song and I’m outta there. But then there are the pros who know how to entertain, how to sell a song, how to bring both laughter and tears. They are interesting, they move, they use their space.
Some of my favorites: David Phelps, Kirk Talley, Mike Upright, Ann Downing Hmmm, Nicole Watts Jenkins, Jason Crabb.
So there’s no wrappin’ it up! Got it? OK.
Posted 07 Oct 2007 at 10:56 pm ¶
Most other genres of music are centered around individual vocalists, then bands, then vocal groups, then way down the list… instrumental music.
We are hung up on groups in SG. I get bored with the same ole cookie cutter quartets out there. I know people like harmony and all that but, sometimes that becomes a crutch. “As long as I stand here and sing pretty we’ll do great”. GOOD soloist have to do quite a bit more than that to grab one’s attention.
I’ve just sat in the seat in awe of vocalists like Phelps or Mike English or Natalie Grant (yes I know they’re all CCM). They’ve got a toolbag full of technique and tons of passion in they’re stage pressence.
Posted 08 Oct 2007 at 10:38 am ¶
#45: You hit the nail on the head! I know that the common belief is that all soloists are boring…one person on stage with nobody and nothing else…and so many churches have the same belief. Thankfully, the “Sunday Morning Special Soloist” (who stands frozen behind the pulpit and stares into space as everyone enjoys the tape hiss while we wait for the music to actually start) is not the same thing as a true soloist. It’s a hard stereotype to break…and some refuse to believe even after they’ve experienced it. Like the Bible says, “many are called - few are chosen.” I also love the saying “some were called, some were sent, some bundled up and went!” A truly chosen soloist can “minister” to the congregation…not just stand there and sing!
Posted 08 Oct 2007 at 1:17 pm ¶
Angie M wrote:
#41: Doug must still be out there somewhere…he’s approving comments. Unless he’s delegated that task to the interns. But I do hope we hear from him again soon.
Posted 08 Oct 2007 at 1:56 pm ¶
Most of the examples listed here of great soloists don’t travel strictly solo. They have backup singers, or they’re part of a group. Jason’s too new to the solo scene to really know how he’ll “entertain” solo, but he says he really wants to preach. So that’s not the same, either.
There are a few who’ve sustained a strictly solo career in our genre, and I don’t have to name them; you know who they are. The best do continue to survive. I think part of the difficulty for a solo act is having to carry a full hour or two by yourself.
I like the idea of mixing track with band. It seems to work for some artists. I can’t think of any other musical genre that has solo acts performing exclusively with tracks. This may happen in s/g partially because so much of this business happens in church settings, with free-will offerings. And the economics have been discussed here ad nauseum. That’s still the biggest consideration in whether to use live bands or not. It’s not just that we can’t play and sing (both at the same time). We don’t HAVE to, if we can afford to hire musicians.
If we could all sustain careers selling out huge venues nightly, we might be able to do afford to hire musicians, buy/rent multiple busses, etc. But we can’t. Gaither’s been able to do that for 30+ years, but look at all the flack he gets herein.
There’s just no win-win solution.
Posted 08 Oct 2007 at 2:31 pm ¶
Man, Doug better come back soon… he’s missing some good stuff!
(i.e., the announcement of Scott Allen joining Mercy’s Mark, which I cover on my blog)
Posted 09 Oct 2007 at 8:17 pm ¶
Isn’t a soloist with tracks just kareoke?
Posted 10 Oct 2007 at 8:44 pm ¶
well played DD…well played
Posted 11 Oct 2007 at 2:02 am ¶
51 and 52: No!!! A soloist with tracks is not kareoke…And probably the ones who say this are the same ones who sell the trax at their product table. I am sorry, but, for some reason that statement hit me wrong. I do not listen to solo artist and think of them as “kareoke” artist.
Posted 11 Oct 2007 at 12:54 pm ¶
Is karaoke a ministry or a business?
Posted 11 Oct 2007 at 1:01 pm ¶
This site is starting look more and more like a self-service blog.
We do not even have a service person like they do at the self service check out counters at your favorite supermarket or home improvement box stores.
Posted 11 Oct 2007 at 1:12 pm ¶
If Steve Perry showed up at a karaoke bar to sing “Open Arms” with the machine, I’d think of it as a solo performance. But if Sting stopped by the next night and did the same song with the same track, I’d consider it karaoke. In short, it’s marginally more acceptable if the performer is singing his own material, especially if it was a song he’d made famous.
Insert your preferred SG soloists into the above statement for the gospel music parallel.
Posted 11 Oct 2007 at 2:03 pm ¶
Steve Perry would make an excellent SG tenor singer. For that matter, Open Arms wouldn’t make a bad SG ballad.
Who would your all star quartet of secular singers be?
Posted 11 Oct 2007 at 4:53 pm ¶
Power male quartet:
Timothy B. Schmidt
For a lighter (seventies Imperials) sound:
My ladies trio is and always will be:
Dolly, Linda, and Emmylou
We should do mixed groups, too.
Posted 11 Oct 2007 at 8:10 pm ¶
I love the Perrys!
Which one is Steve?
Steve Perry, tenor
Libbi Perry, alto
Randy Perry, baritone
gotta have a bass . . .
Posted 11 Oct 2007 at 8:13 pm ¶
Lottie Squires wrote:
#57…Can’t you just picture Steve Perry on the cover of Singing News?! REO Speedwagon could be next…Kevin Cronin’s hair is short now!
Posted 11 Oct 2007 at 9:11 pm ¶
Madison E. wrote:
I wasn’t agreeing with #51 as much as the fact that I just thought it was funny.
Seriously though, someone should start searching for Doug…he’s gone into hiding. If I’m not mistaken though it is that time of the year for mid-terms so he’s probably busy with that.
Posted 12 Oct 2007 at 1:12 am ¶
DD…..some soloists don’t even know what karaoke is, soooo that probably doesn’t apply
Posted 12 Oct 2007 at 3:36 am ¶
Doug, please do SOMETHING. The kids are getting bored and restless.
Posted 12 Oct 2007 at 5:15 am ¶
Dougie — oh Dougie — Where are you? We miss you. Time to come home. Dougie — quit hiding — Come on — Tell us you love us!
Posted 12 Oct 2007 at 4:59 pm ¶
Or maybe Doug just wants to leave us to our own devices, and see how many ways we can hang ourselves? Or see how creative we can be on our own?
Power quartets, comprised of mainstream artists? How about this collection:
tenor - Mickey Mouse
lead - Elmer Fudd
bariton - Donald Duck
bass - Foghorn Leghorn
Picture, if you will, Fudd singing a tribute to Gaither. Now that’s just “GOOFY”.
Posted 12 Oct 2007 at 5:01 pm ¶
not a grammarian wrote:
I think he must have gone into the witness protection program after that first picture posted after the Blogger’s Round Table at NQC
Posted 12 Oct 2007 at 9:47 pm ¶
I’ve thought so many times about secular singers and how great they would be if they were using their talents to sing Christian music. Forget all the spicy lyrics, but the country singer Gretchen Wilson is one of the finest singers around right now. What if she were using her talents singing Christian music? She could be a powerhouse SG singer.
For an all-time secular singer/turned SG singer group, how about this crazy, mismatched lineup:
Bing Crosby–low male harmony
Gretchen Wilson–higher female harmony
Tennessee Ernie Ford–bass
Posted 12 Oct 2007 at 9:50 pm ¶
Tele D. Trooth wrote:
yep…i suppose it would be great to see Eddie Van Halen jamming on the NQC Main Stage…
Posted 13 Oct 2007 at 12:26 am ¶
#68 yeah it would…but I think it might take away from his “rockstar” image with the mandatory suit and tie. =)
I’m wanting to see Kiss bring out all the pyro and make up and perform “Get Away Jordan”…with special guests- the Dove Brothers and Signature Sound…wow…
Posted 13 Oct 2007 at 1:37 am ¶
I know what has happen to Doug. It all makes sense now. Since his face has been shown, someone who really cannot stand his opinions and this website (or, is very angry with him) has abducted him!!! They are holding him hostage, taken over his computor, and they are approving all these messages –but only for now. They will approve this one to keep it from looking like I figured it out. Meanwhile, they are torturing him while plotting what to do with his website. If anyone has any further information PLEASE call the police right away. Everyone start investigating past messages and see if you can figure who it could be. Rick Goodman is the first suspect!! I’m sure glad they don’t know me or have seen my picture. Wait…… I hear someone coming while humming “This is What Heaven Means to Me” …….. Now their singing “I Wouldn’t Take Nothing for My Journey Now” . . . . Could it all be true?
Posted 13 Oct 2007 at 5:24 am ¶
speaking of solo projects…….great day!Why cant a Christian be positive? This guy comments about Ricky Atkinson doing a solo project and puts him down! If anyone deserves to do a solo project its him. Solo projects not normally done are most often reflective by the writer/artist. That can put a song in a whole new light.
btw- im just glad this room is digital. if we were all in an actual room it would be padded and there would probably be a homicide.
Posted 13 Oct 2007 at 9:33 am ¶
Obviously the guy who commented on Sogospel about Ricky Atkinson’s does not understand how Ricky’s ministry works. I know this group personally, and I have some insite. RAC does auditorium type concerts as well as church services. However, Ricky also books solo dates at churches for Sundays and revivals. Scott & Tessa Thomas book certain church dates, revivals, and campmeetings. Scott preaches at these events, and he and his wife sing as a duet around the piano (it’s old school and really cool). Scott & Tessa even have their own CDs and website. Ricky put out a solo CD because the fans have requested his solo CD for a few years now, and he has this to put on his table at solo concerts. If you knew Ricky, you would know that it has nothing to do with ego. Many have been anticipating a solo CD from Tessa among the church & campmeeting circuit. She has been reluctant to do so; however, she is looking at releasing a CD next year. Again, it has nothing to do with ego with this group. It’s simply an old business concept - demand causes a supply.
Posted 13 Oct 2007 at 5:02 pm ¶
RE: Power quartets, comprised of mainstream artists? How about this collection:
tenor - Tommy Shaw
lead - Axel Rose
bariton - Ted Nugent
bass -James Hetfield
Debuting on Gather’s HOMECOMING 08 tour with a special appearance at NQC 08
First CD co-produced by Rick Rubin and Lari Goss to be released in the Spring.
Exclusive interview by Jerry Kirksey and SN cover feature to follow.
Posted 13 Oct 2007 at 5:46 pm ¶
I heard on Gospel Greats tonight that both Ronnie Booth & Michael Booth are putting out solo projects.
Posted 14 Oct 2007 at 1:20 am ¶
#65: I love it. Two songs from their new CD: “Because He Wivvs,” and “Wuvvest Thou Me.”
Posted 14 Oct 2007 at 12:54 pm ¶
Ronnie Booth’s solo project is already available (purchase one on their website or pick one up at one of their concerts), and Michael Booth’s CD will be available soon.
Posted 14 Oct 2007 at 8:17 pm ¶
In my opinion if an artist can’t entertain a crowd without a band, they’re not going to do much better with one. All a band is going to accomplish is giving the crowd more to look at…which is all fine and good for the first couple songs. After that you’re right back down to whether or not the artist themselves are good enough or entertaining enough to be enjoyed.
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 6:13 am ¶
See number 4.
en·tro·py Pronunciation Key - [en-truh-pee] –noun
1. Thermodynamics. a. (on a macroscopic scale) a function of thermodynamic variables, as temperature, pressure, or composition, that is a measure of the energy that is not available for work during a thermodynamic process. A closed system evolves toward a state of maximum entropy.
b. (in statistical mechanics) a measure of the randomness of the microscopic constituents of a thermodynamic system. Symbol: S
2. (in data transmission and information theory) a measure of the loss of information in a transmitted signal or message.
3. (in cosmology) a hypothetical tendency for the universe to attain a state of maximum homogeneity in which all matter is at a uniform temperature (heat death).
4. a doctrine of inevitable social decline and degeneration.
It all came out of the bloggers roundtable…”Let’s leave them to their own devices and see what happens…”.
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 12:26 pm ¶
Wait a sec! Secular artists making up the ideal SGM act…lemme think…Rascall Flatts would be great IF SG is ready for faded jeans, spiked hair and nasaly tenors…………………
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 12:51 pm ¶
Music chick wrote:
#74 & #76
Ronnie and Michael Booth are both EXTREMELY talented individuals. Their projects are and will be top-notch. Ronnie has been sharing one of his songs, I Would, in concert. It is wonderful. In the words of Michael Booth, why do some artists do solo projects. . . . . .Because they want to.
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 1:49 pm ¶
BL: Well said! Sometimes bands ” take away from” instead of adding to. We were in service with the Dove Bros. Friday night and I must say, it was great.
No band, just piano player. McCray really knows how to emcee. He was setting up the song ” I CAn Pray” and at that point you could’ve heard a pin or paper drop. If you don’t have the rest of the package, a band doesn’t make a great deal of difference. Just my 2 cents worth.
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 2:26 pm ¶
Thanks, Angie. I wondered how long it would take for someone catch on. I’ve been entertaining family & friends with “FUDD SINGS GAITHER” and “AN ETHEL MERMAN TRIBUTE TO SANDY PATTY” for years. Elmer can also sing Steve Green’s “Pwecious Wamb of Gwoo-oo-wy”. Don’t forget to add mega-tons of vibrato.
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 3:18 pm ¶
Have y’all heard Del Way’s new cd “Livin’ This Life”. It’s got some great cuts.
I realize he’s not a top-teir s/g artist, but he gets a lot of TV (& some radio) attentions. This new project deserves a listen-to.
Also, I’ve just heard part of the McGruder’s new one “By The Book”. They’ve still got it goin’ on, in my not so humble opinion (which ought to be everybody’s, of course).
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 3:26 pm ¶
#79 - “IF SG is ready for faded jeans, spiked hair and nasaly tenors”?
I thought we were already there.
Besides, forget Rascal Flatts. They ought to be called “Flat Rascalls”. Give me Austins Bridge any day of the week. Now, THEM boys can SANG!
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 3:32 pm ¶
Doug: O Brother, where art thou?
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 4:47 pm ¶
#74,#76 & #80. And don’t forget Jim Brady’s solo project. Plans are for it to come out are presently after the first of the year. The Booths are as great as soloists as they are as a group. Now we can enjoy them both ways!!!
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 5:44 pm ¶
#73- Rick Rubin is a musical genius.
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 5:54 pm ¶
O.K…I’ve resisted long enough. The question I have is certainly on the edge: Once a particular SG artist, Evangelical pastor or T.V. gospel star is revealed to be “in sin” or “treading in the Devil’s playground” or “playing fast and loose with God’s word”, how long until they have paid their debt or been subjected to enough public scrutiny? And, if they are forgiven and welcomed back into our fellowship, should they be reinstated into a position of leadership or not? This may be the one place where this question might be able to be asked, with some hope of soliciting a true and objective answer.
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 7:10 pm ¶
JM, once God has forgiven them, it should make no difference to us WHAT was going on…however, they have “fallen” so to speak and need to prove themselves again to the people NOT to God. That’s my two cents worth. Get forgiven…get yourself together…and go to the end of the line…meanwhile, pray that the good Christians of the world will not keep kicking you. Of course, this suggestion comes from the world of Primrose Paths and Pie in the Sky.
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 7:24 pm ¶
Anybody interested in Scott Inman’s solo cd? Available from me for $10 including shipping/handling if interested.
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 8:50 pm ¶
I think the answer of “how long” is in direct proportion to several things. First, their budget. If they have a good budget they should already have a top-notch marketing machine behind them. This is the group whose job it is to ’spin the sin’ so to speak, and use media to rebuild the portions of the career that have been damaged. Many Christian organizations employ secular marketing companies for reasons that aren’t germane to this thread, and their objective is to get a job done, not evaluate or be concerned with the sincerity of the person or organization for whom they’re working. That sounds terribly cold and objective but it is often the reality.
So the plan usually includes a healthy budget to buy ads and grease the appropriate wheels, some well-placed and highly-visible ‘acts of contrition’ and media appearances to tell their version of the story, whatever that is. It’s the ability of the marketing team to assess the damage, analyze the current landscape of public opinion and manage their way through it.
I understand your question presumes genuine repentance on the part of the individual who’s fallen and indeed, that would be the ideal situation both morally and spiritually, but that’s purely optional. A morals clause in a contract with a record company or Christian organization is only as powerful as the desire on the part of those who administer it to hold the offending party to its terms. That doesn’t always happen. If the ’sin’ is manageable (don’t you love it?) nothing may happen. It’s only when things get out of hand and affect sales, attendance, revenue, etc. that action may be sought.
The temptation to get back in the game and the relative ease with which it can be done often trumps the need for true repentance and restoration. The ‘plus’ from a marketing standpoint is that a year later you can write a new book or a new song to explain how you’ve gone “through the valley and are now on the mountaintop” once again. Whether true repentance happens or not, the Christian subculture is all too willing to welcome back an artist or minister because we are so easily seduced by their music or message.
I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t be welcoming and forgiving; after all, we all sin and God alone is the one who knows the heart. But the consumerist nature of western Christianity almost always yields to ego, money and power. To a marketing team, repentance is optional; their job, and they do it well, is to rebuild image and get sales back on track. If they do, guess what? God is good and repentance and restoration must have worked. If not then it must not have been God’s will for them to ‘come back’ after all.
Be sure to copy God in on that.
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 9:45 pm ¶
#88…How long should they be held to public scrutiny and should they be allowed in a position of leadership?
Two very good questions that I await with unbated anticipation for answers from the diverse crowd on this sight. Public scrutiny and for how long will be determined by the public. One degree of variability will be the degree to which the individual was holding others accountable and from what position. See Bill Clinton, who didn’t care how you lived vs. If George Bush were caught in the same acts. The higher the standard you are throwing out there, the longer the backlash will be.
The question of position of leadership would depend on a couple of things: what is the position and what was the wrongdoing? The higher the position (i.e. pastor, missionary) the higher the standard God sets. See Moses and his inability to control his temper. Not hardly fair in human eyes that the man led the thankless Israelites up to the milk and honey but he could not partake of the final blessing. How about David who desperately wanted to build a temple but was not allowed because he was a man of war?
Most of what we put on here are opinions and standards that we as mere humans can comprehend while giving little regard to Biblical Truth. Perhaps a good rule on this subject would be to require chapter and verse for the basis of our opinions, or at the very least examples from scripture that would show where we are coming from.
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 9:55 pm ¶
If I were a member of a congregation led by a person who had moral failure, I would no longer want to be under his/her teaching. So, even though there might be a process of restoration within the guidelines of the church, and even though I know God forgives, I would never want to see that person in a position of leadership again.
Posted 15 Oct 2007 at 10:06 pm ¶
aaron s wrote:
#88 - I know there is a SG artist that was caught red handed and sort of confessed. Of course I am talking about KT. Several have let him back in, while others - including me - haven’t. the reason that i haven’t is mainly because he told me personally that, “this is something that is just between me and God and well other men that will go unnamed” He laughed if off as though it was no big deal. When I don’t see sorrow, I don’t forgive. that is just my take.
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 12:33 am ¶
#74, #80 and #86
I was recently at a Booth Brothers concert…and Jim Brady already had a brand new “love songs” project available for purchase at their product table. This is the second one he has put out. ‘CLC’, is this the “new CD” you are talking about, or is putting out another one?
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 1:46 am ¶
How many times should we forgive? The Bible says 70 X 7 is a good starter.
The Father forgives and we just confirm it and encourage the fallen one. Anything wrong with that?
It doesn’t mean that we have to have them over to dine if we’re uncomfortable with being around them… but, shouldn’t we be willing to invite them if God lays it on our heart? Would you shut the door on that Divine nudge?
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 3:02 am ¶
Jim also will have a solo project out in a few months in addition to his “love songs” project with wife, Melissa. Those boys could sing alone or with anybody, including Elmer Fudd, and sound great!
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 3:07 am ¶
Practical Fellow wrote:
#94 - Aaron S
You might reconsider your statement on why you forgive. We forgive (i.e. release the debt owed to us) because we have been forgiven. I assume you mean that you can begin to trust someone again when they demonstrate a repentent heart.
On a completely different note… which artists are going into the studio soon?
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 3:11 am ¶
Charles Brady wrote:
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 3:21 am ¶
In I Corinthians 5, Paul addresses a situation where a certain man committed fornication with his step mother. Paul basically says he was leaven that leaventh the whole lump. He also said in verse 5 to deliver such a person to Satan; in other words, set him out of the church while he continues to live in sin until he gets a belly full of the world. In verse 11, he says not to have anything to do with such a person. We are to put away such a wicked person.
Before the church forgives and accepts someone who has lived in sin, we must first see true, geniune, humble, repentance. I do believe it is commanded for us to forgive once someone has truely repented - the bible says we are suppose to and we would be wrong if we did not do so. However, the bible never says we are obligated to put such a person up to sing, teach, preach, or to hold an office in the church.
Concerning KT - My concern is not so much what he has done in the past. We all know the admitted sin. We also know the admitted repentance. My concern and reservation is that KT wrote gospel songs, got on stage and sung about Jesus, and still held his head high while hiding in the sinful corners of homosexuality for a number of years. Yes God forgives. Yes God delivers. However, how can one go back on the road, travel alone, unmarried, and there’s no one there physically there to be accountable to? This would lead to accessable opportunity to fall right back into the same lifestyle as before.
If a drunk is delivered from drinking, he must stay away from any business that would tempt him to get another drink. True repentance will cause a person to avoid the very appearance of evil.
I truely hope KT has repented and found true forgiveness from the Lord. If that is the case I have no problem accepting what he says as long as it is sincere repentance. I just have trouble trusting if what he says is real because he fooled so many people for such a long time while flying on planes, driving long distances, and staying in motels supposedly alone. Who is he acountable to now? I fully trust God’s ability to forgive and wash away sin. I do not trust people who can seem so sincere one minute and be in sinful lifestyles the next minute.
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 4:41 am ¶
Wow…Doug! Interns! We need a new topic up in here…………………..lol
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 12:28 pm ¶
#84: Flatt Rascals is right! They sound great on the radio (”studio magic”)…but watch them on award shows and live events where the “magic” isn’t there… andn it’s a whole ‘nother ballgame! Kinda reminds me of the old joke about the difference between two SG quartets…one of ‘em can sing! There are a few secular artists that can really sing (Martina McBride is at the top of that list) but many succeed on charisma, entertainment/performance, and looks…NOT vocal talent!
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 1:08 pm ¶
PF-#98: Three Bridges are supposed to release a brand-new project–hopefully within 60 days or so (according to Gospel Greats). Hopefully they won’t pull an Anchormen and re-record the old CD, and offer copies of the older version as GG giveaways. But seriously, I guess that did put the new Anchormen in an awkward position.
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 2:13 pm ¶
Lest we not forget, there is a vast difference between forgiveness and trust.
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 3:30 pm ¶
Bravo and amen!!!!!, #100 ST.
The only thing I’d add is I think anyone in position of power and influence who commits sexual sin (adultery, homosexuality, etc.) and/or criminal/unethical behavior (theft, etc.) forever forfeits a leadership position, and I include professional singers in this.
God does indeed forgive, but I agree there is no requirement to put anyone back in a position of power. I base this on Paul’s qualification of other leaders, such as “being above reproach.”
Odd how some browbeat us that “Thou must forgive” when it’s a celeb/politician/singer, etc., but would the same persons allow a child molestor who has been forgiven to babysit their kids?
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 4:25 pm ¶
Maybe it’s because he has nothing to say?
But he just needs to come back and say he’s alive or something.
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 7:50 pm ¶
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