Comments on: Comment of the day http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/ Criticism and commentary on southern gospel music Wed, 23 May 2012 10:37:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3 By: Josh C http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-262859 Josh C Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:26:16 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-262859 SG does definitely use Union musicians. Are you blind? Can you not read credits? Just about every SG project has the same couple of players. Dirk Johnson or Jason Webb on piano/keys (Both Union players), Kelly Back or Mike Severs on Guitars, Bobby All on acoustic (All Union Players), Dave Hungate, Dave Pomeroy on bass (union players), Mike Johnson or Sonny Garrish Steel (both union players), Wanda Vick, Glen Duncan Fiddle/Mandolin (both session players). Come on guys, where did this misinformation come from? All Major Label Southern Gospel projects use union players, they all use the same players! SG does definitely use Union musicians. Are you blind? Can you not read credits? Just about every SG project has the same couple of players. Dirk Johnson or Jason Webb on piano/keys (Both Union players), Kelly Back or Mike Severs on Guitars, Bobby All on acoustic (All Union Players), Dave Hungate, Dave Pomeroy on bass (union players), Mike Johnson or Sonny Garrish Steel (both union players), Wanda Vick, Glen Duncan Fiddle/Mandolin (both session players). Come on guys, where did this misinformation come from? All Major Label Southern Gospel projects use union players, they all use the same players!

]]> By: Diva0427 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-258705 Diva0427 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:19:13 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-258705 Ben...my bad. I'm not reading carefully this morning. However, it has been my experience that the artist will pay the producer and the producer will then pay the musicians. If the producer/artist decides to hire the Nashville String Machine (for example), the artist again pays the producer who pays the contractor who then pays the individual players. Again...coming at it from an indie perspective and experience. I hope my first comment didn't sound snappy or anything b/c that was not my intention! Sorry! Ben…my bad. I’m not reading carefully this morning. However, it has been my experience that the artist will pay the producer and the producer will then pay the musicians. If the producer/artist decides to hire the Nashville String Machine (for example), the artist again pays the producer who pays the contractor who then pays the individual players. Again…coming at it from an indie perspective and experience. I hope my first comment didn’t sound snappy or anything b/c that was not my intention! Sorry!

]]> By: Diva0427 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-258583 Diva0427 Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:25:24 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-258583 Ben, For indie projects, it is up the producer to book the players. If a label is dealing with the project, then you are correct. I was coming at it from an independent artist perspective. :) Ben,

For indie projects, it is up the producer to book the players. If a label is dealing with the project, then you are correct. I was coming at it from an independent artist perspective.

:)

]]> By: Ben Harris http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256810 Ben Harris Tue, 08 Jan 2008 20:58:21 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256810 SG sessions are almost always booked as "Limited Pressing" scale. That means that each player, except session leader, is paid about $225.00 per 3 hours. (This total comes from all the associated fees but does not include cartage) The leader is paid double. Limited pressing means that only a certain number of CD's will be released from this session date. I believe the total is 5000, but I am not totally sure of that number. When the pressing will be more than that, or when the sales have garnered re-orders that make the total over that, then the union contract calls for paying the session players the remaining difference between "limited pressing" and "master scale". The latter is roughly double the price, or about $450 per 3 hours total. This still does not allow for the selling of sound tracks or re-use by another artist other than the artist name on the original contract. At no time does anyone artist, producer, or studio "own" the intellectual rights of the session players beyond the scope of the original contract. Of course, all of us know of tracks being leased and sold, but that does not make it legal, just hard to police. Also to book session players you must be a signed signatore to the union, or someone on your behalf must have this license. SG sessions are almost always booked as “Limited Pressing” scale. That means that each player, except session leader, is paid about $225.00 per 3 hours. (This total comes from all the associated fees but does not include cartage) The leader is paid double. Limited pressing means that only a certain number of CD’s will be released from this session date. I believe the total is 5000, but I am not totally sure of that number. When the pressing will be more than that, or when the sales have garnered re-orders that make the total over that, then the union contract calls for paying the session players the remaining difference between “limited pressing” and “master scale”. The latter is roughly double the price, or about $450 per 3 hours total. This still does not allow for the selling of sound tracks or re-use by another artist other than the artist name on the original contract. At no time does anyone artist, producer, or studio “own” the intellectual rights of the session players beyond the scope of the original contract. Of course, all of us know of tracks being leased and sold, but that does not make it legal, just hard to police. Also to book session players you must be a signed signatore to the union, or someone on your behalf must have this license.

]]> By: ST http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256304 ST Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:51:07 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256304 There is another side to this. I've been apart of 20 to 30 recordings from the perspective of SG artist and producer. The first thing I try to do is get the musicians that I feel understand the style that I want. So you call the musicians or have the engineer or producer to call and book these guys. That's when the price per musician is set. Most studio musicians are very nice and try to make sure the artist/producer is satisfied when they rehearse the song usually one time before cutting it. I always let the session leader and the musicians decide on which instrument will fill which verse or chorus. Usually they have wonderful fresh ideas that are great. However, there are times the producer or artist hears something different from the musician that the artist/producer really wants. Like I said most studio musicians will comply with the request and do their best to satisfy the producer or artist. But then there are other studio musicians that really seem to have a problem with an artist or producer telling them to try something. I've seen a couple get an attitude and treat the artist like they were stupid for making such a suggestion. Those musicians that do that seem to forget who hired them and who is paying them - the artist. If musicians want to get an attitude, that's okay, because the artist does not have to hire them again. At the end of the day all the studio musicians I have hired have always got their paycheck for the amount the engineer/producer/or musician told me to pay them. I also know studio musicians only want to do 10 songs in a days time. However, if I'm willing to pay extra per song and they know I want 2 to 4 extra songs before we go into a session, then they should be willing to do it or tell me to get another musician that is willing to do it. I've know studio musicians who are friends that would purposely waste time between songs or doing overdubs just so they would not have to do the extra songs. What really is aggrevaiting is when these studio musicians will not speak to the artist or won't even try to be friendly with them. Like I said, these are the exceptions, but it does exist. Usually the session leader is the friendliest - you know, talking to you like a person even when the subject is not about the session. Maybe it's because the session leader gets paid doubled. Maybe the reason musicians get an attitude is because they did not get paid by a SG artist and they think all SG artists are the same. If a musician gets an attitude with me or my artist, he will not be hired to play on the next project. I've even seen producers or engineers go talk to musicians with bad attitudes and make them apologize. I know one engineer who owns a studio who asks the artist and producer if they were pleased with the musicians and if they were treated right. If not, he does not have the musician back if he feels the complaint is legitimate. There is another side to this. I’ve been apart of 20 to 30 recordings from the perspective of SG artist and producer.

The first thing I try to do is get the musicians that I feel understand the style that I want. So you call the musicians or have the engineer or producer to call and book these guys. That’s when the price per musician is set.

Most studio musicians are very nice and try to make sure the artist/producer is satisfied when they rehearse the song usually one time before cutting it. I always let the session leader and the musicians decide on which instrument will fill which verse or chorus. Usually they have wonderful fresh ideas that are great. However, there are times the producer or artist hears something different from the musician that the artist/producer really wants. Like I said most studio musicians will comply with the request and do their best to satisfy the producer or artist.

But then there are other studio musicians that really seem to have a problem with an artist or producer telling them to try something. I’ve seen a couple get an attitude and treat the artist like they were stupid for making such a suggestion. Those musicians that do that seem to forget who hired them and who is paying them - the artist. If musicians want to get an attitude, that’s okay, because the artist does not have to hire them again.

At the end of the day all the studio musicians I have hired have always got their paycheck for the amount the engineer/producer/or musician told me to pay them.

I also know studio musicians only want to do 10 songs in a days time. However, if I’m willing to pay extra per song and they know I want 2 to 4 extra songs before we go into a session, then they should be willing to do it or tell me to get another musician that is willing to do it.

I’ve know studio musicians who are friends that would purposely waste time between songs or doing overdubs just so they would not have to do the extra songs.

What really is aggrevaiting is when these studio musicians will not speak to the artist or won’t even try to be friendly with them. Like I said, these are the exceptions, but it does exist. Usually the session leader is the friendliest - you know, talking to you like a person even when the subject is not about the session. Maybe it’s because the session leader gets paid doubled.

Maybe the reason musicians get an attitude is because they did not get paid by a SG artist and they think all SG artists are the same. If a musician gets an attitude with me or my artist, he will not be hired to play on the next project. I’ve even seen producers or engineers go talk to musicians with bad attitudes and make them apologize.

I know one engineer who owns a studio who asks the artist and producer if they were pleased with the musicians and if they were treated right. If not, he does not have the musician back if he feels the complaint is legitimate.

]]> By: Chuck Sims http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256288 Chuck Sims Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:31:13 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256288 My group has always depended upon the recording studio to #1 recommend musicians, and #2 recmmend how much to pay them. Then we simply pay the bill! We also usually "tip" the musician if they do more than expected. We find that these people will always work for us again and again if they are treated well. Maybe those artist in question should try this. You can always "draw more flies with honey than with vinegar!!" My group has always depended upon the recording studio to #1 recommend musicians, and #2 recmmend how much to pay them. Then we simply pay the bill! We also usually “tip” the musician if they do more than expected. We find that these people will always work for us again and again if they are treated well. Maybe those artist in question should try this. You can always “draw more flies with honey than with vinegar!!”

]]> By: Trent http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256224 Trent Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:33:01 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256224 My group has made two recordings since 2005 using some of the top players in Nashville on each record. In both instances, the producer either had my money up front before the sessions or I paid the owner of the studio for all studio time & session player fees before leaving the premises. This is a pretty straightforward and simple way of doing things. Either pay the money up front before the sessions or pay the day of the sessions. That way, everybody leaves the studio happy. Then you are ready to move to the next stage (vocal sessions) with everything up to that point already paid for. My group has made two recordings since 2005 using some of the top players in Nashville on each record. In both instances, the producer either had my money up front before the sessions or I paid the owner of the studio for all studio time & session player fees before leaving the premises. This is a pretty straightforward and simple way of doing things. Either pay the money up front before the sessions or pay the day of the sessions. That way, everybody leaves the studio happy. Then you are ready to move to the next stage (vocal sessions) with everything up to that point already paid for.

]]> By: Ben Harris http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256220 Ben Harris Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:25:40 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256220 Actually it is not up to the producer to pay the session players. The liability tree is as follows: 1. label 2. artist or owner of group 3. session contractor (person who hired) 4. producer 5. studio Actually it is not up to the producer to pay the session players. The liability tree is as follows:

1. label
2. artist or owner of group
3. session contractor (person who hired)
4. producer
5. studio

]]> By: thom http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256099 thom Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:37:31 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256099 c'mon moderator - tell us who posted this. who is the "face and name that most of us wold immediately recognize?" as #4 "diva" said - it's up to the Producer to hire the players and then Pay them. I think good business sense should always be used - Know who you are dealing with. Check references. It's sad to think that someone would be ripped off while making "christian" music, but the reality is there are crooks and con men in every business. Beware of wolves in sheeps clothing. c’mon moderator - tell us who posted this. who is the “face and name that most of us wold immediately recognize?”

as #4 “diva” said - it’s up to the Producer to hire the players and then Pay them. I think good business sense should always be used - Know who you are dealing with. Check references.

It’s sad to think that someone would be ripped off while making “christian” music, but the reality is there are crooks and con men in every business. Beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.

]]> By: SG Doc http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256057 SG Doc Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:14:11 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256057 #2 and #9 I know first hand that The McKameys have and do always pay their writers. And I am sure that there are many others. And I'm not laying blame elsewhere for artists not paying what they owe, However it's the same avenue when the church these artists go to and perform. The church will cringe at promising a minimum plus offering. Then sometimes the church will give the minimum and then keep the rest for themselves. I know of a group that had to leave the church and track down the pastor for the offering! SGD #2 and #9

I know first hand that The McKameys have and do always pay their writers. And I am sure that there are many others.

And I’m not laying blame elsewhere for artists not paying what they owe, However it’s the same avenue when the church these artists go to and perform. The church will cringe at promising a minimum plus offering. Then sometimes the church will give the minimum and then keep the rest for themselves. I know of a group that had to leave the church and track down the pastor for the offering!

SGD

]]> By: Chuck Peters http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256056 Chuck Peters Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:13:41 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-256056 From the info provided.. I don't recognize the name.. or the face. Maybe Avery just made it up? From the info provided.. I don’t recognize the name.. or the face. Maybe Avery just made it up?

]]> By: Ima Fan http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-255923 Ima Fan Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:15:45 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-255923 What PF and #12 said. What PF and #12 said.

]]> By: Janice http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-255448 Janice Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:47:17 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-255448 #11 Practical Fellow: Those are very wise words! #11 Practical Fellow: Those are very wise words!

]]> By: Practical Fellow http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-255328 Practical Fellow Sun, 06 Jan 2008 21:05:21 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-255328 Being a SG artist does not automatically qualify the individual(s) to be model Christians and ministers. BUICK (#2), you don't need to admire any of these folks personally - because you can't realistically know them. You largely can know only what they market for you to know about them in their ads and their interviews. To admire them is to admire their marketing strategy and PR. SG music is a business. It's a business that invokes the name of Jesus, but for good or bad, it's still business. Better to look for people in your church and your community who represent and model what it means to be a follower of Jesus. Admire those folks who live the life every day in front of you. SG artists are just people with musical talent who have chosen to work in this particular industry. Many aren't preachers or ministers with extensive Bible training. They simply sing music that can inspire and encourage. So we support those who create quality music and who portray Christ in an appropriate manner. But to elevate them to some kind of celebrity status only sets them - and us - up for a fall. Being a SG artist does not automatically qualify the individual(s) to be model Christians and ministers. BUICK (#2), you don’t need to admire any of these folks personally - because you can’t realistically know them. You largely can know only what they market for you to know about them in their ads and their interviews. To admire them is to admire their marketing strategy and PR.

SG music is a business. It’s a business that invokes the name of Jesus, but for good or bad, it’s still business. Better to look for people in your church and your community who represent and model what it means to be a follower of Jesus. Admire those folks who live the life every day in front of you.

SG artists are just people with musical talent who have chosen to work in this particular industry. Many aren’t preachers or ministers with extensive Bible training. They simply sing music that can inspire and encourage. So we support those who create quality music and who portray Christ in an appropriate manner. But to elevate them to some kind of celebrity status only sets them - and us - up for a fall.

]]> By: BGC http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-255219 BGC Sun, 06 Jan 2008 14:26:53 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2008/01/06/comment-of-the-day-2/#comment-255219 Same theme, different approach - Promoter puts on a SG concert selling tickets in advance, Come the day of the concert realizes he is way under budget so asks or even worse tells the performing artist to ask for a love offering. Sure most born again Christians understand but to the unbelievers, the folks who need the gospel the most, confirms what they already believe. For years we had one such promoter in the Richmond Virginia area. The promoter also worked for the only SG radio station around. To this day there are no SG Radio stations within 75 miles of Richmond and getting people to attend a concert is like pulling teeth. Gaither does pretty well at the Coliseum (70% full) but many come from out of town because he usually only comes to VA twice a year (once to Richmond or Hampton and once to N. VA). Just my thoughts. Same theme, different approach - Promoter puts on a SG concert selling tickets in advance, Come the day of the concert realizes he is way under budget so asks or even worse tells the performing artist to ask for a love offering. Sure most born again Christians understand but to the unbelievers, the folks who need the gospel the most, confirms what they already believe. For years we had one such promoter in the Richmond Virginia area. The promoter also worked for the only SG radio station around. To this day there are no SG Radio stations within 75 miles of Richmond and getting people to attend a concert is like pulling teeth. Gaither does pretty well at the Coliseum (70% full) but many come from out of town because he usually only comes to VA twice a year (once to Richmond or Hampton and once to N. VA). Just my thoughts.

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