Dissent of the day

From “Butch”:

In regards to the “long overdue” departure of Jason [Waldroup from Greater Vision] I am once again reminded of how nerdy this Doug guy probably is. Nobody can argue with GV’s success yet some are so quick to put in a shot whenever possible. My guess is that Dougie the blogger is one of these dudes that is so bright that he lacks that plain old sense-common sense. Some people just think a little too hard and they don’t ever quite get a grip. Anybody ever wonder this with me? Does Dougie comb his hair? I wonder sometimes.

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  1. Aaron Swain wrote:

    I seem to remember Doug’s hair being cut too short to comb….

  2. quartet-man wrote:

    I don’t know that Signature Sound combs theirs and look at well received they are. ;)

  3. matureman wrote:

    Butch opens his mouth and gracelessly utters what no one is thinking…

    “My guess is that Dougie the blogger is one of these dudes that is so bright that he lacks that plain old sense-common sense. Some people just think a little too hard and they don’t ever quite get a grip. Anybody ever wonder this with me?”

    The answer is an emphatic NO!

    Some people don’t think hard enough. Without “Dougie” you wouldn’t even be able to make your disparaging remarks, Butchie. Think hard about it.

  4. Leebob wrote:

    WOW!!!!! We have resorted to blogging about a blogger. Is this what they mean about “bad publicity being better than no publicity”?

    I didn’t write anything about that comment because sometimes no comment is about the only thing you can say for something like that.

  5. matureman wrote:

    Proverbs 17:28…

    “Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace…” (KJV)

  6. crazyjoe wrote:

    ….sorry folks, Jason W acted like he has wanted out of GV for quite some time…his range is getting shorter, he acted as if he was going through the motions…it was time for him to move on…….get over it…this hopefully will re-energize GV and get out of their rut….

  7. Ron F wrote:

    Hey Crazyjoe, I agree GV needs something. You know sometimes change is good.

  8. Casually Unobservant wrote:

    How about a song that’s not about a well? If they don’t release slow ballads, its an uptempo number about a well. Eventually the well runs dry.

  9. Leebob wrote:

    # 8…Begging to differ, My Name is Lazarus, Perfect Candidate, So Much God to quickly name a few off the top of my head. I bet others could throw out some more.

    I still for the life of me do not understand the dissing on GV. While I suppose it is your right to an opinion please remember you also have the right to be wrong. This has been a quality group for a long time both musically and individually. Yes people get tired but I have never seen GV when I was not impressed with the glimpse of their heart.

    Perhaps a view from the heavenlies might help some of you enjoy some of the better things in life. According to Ephesians 2:6 we are allowed to “sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” which allows us to have a divine perspective rather than simply rely on earthly wisdom (that which sounds and looks good in this particular venture in life).

  10. Robert wrote:

    I have to take up for Avery. I used to be in the same boat (blogger who spoke his mind). Everyone has a right to their opinion and it is good to have a place to share it. I don’t agree with Avery all the time but he writes interesting articles and doesn’t pull any punches. If SG was a piece of bubblegum it would take hours to get to the gum because of all the coatings of sugar.
    Since I’ve never seen a picture or met Doug in person I don’t know much about him. Going on his writing alone I would say he is the Simon Cowell (spelling?) of SG (hehe).

  11. Chris wrote:

    Adding to LeeBob’s list: Just One More Soul, Still Been God, It Means Just What Says, He Is To Me.

    I’m shocked at how much hate the bloggers have on this site toward GV and Jason. It’s not as if they’re Gaither, taking control of the concert industry. They’ve been a Cathedral-like group, making people love them everywhere with great songs and comedy. It doesn’t take the perfect singer at each position to make the perfect group. Ask the Imperials.

  12. matureman wrote:

    In all candor, I don’t think a lot of people hate GV; some people envy them.

  13. Robert wrote:

    #11 Chris,
    I don’t see “hate”. I just see people giving their opinions. I like GV, Rodney has written some great songs (I’d agree that most are somewhat similar), Gerald Wolfe is one of the best emcees on stage today but if I said he was the worst it wouldn’t mean I hated him.

  14. not a grammarian wrote:

    “My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father - prepare to die!”

  15. Ben Harris wrote:

    We have done concerts with Greater Vision and they are a class act, including Jason. We used their sound system in Texas one night and Jason bent over backward to make sure we had what we needed. He was professional, courteous and competent. I will miss Jason, and I wish him well.

  16. Anon wrote:

    well… technically GV could send the tracks and some product and they wouldn’t have to show up with all the stacks they’ve got going on

  17. not a grammarian wrote:

    Sorry for the non sequitir - my comment was intended to be posted after #67 on the other thread discussing GV and Jason

  18. quartet-man wrote:

    #11 I don’t think Gaither is “taking over the concert industry” that description would have much better fit the Statesmen and Blackwoods in the day. I would call Gaither stepping up and doing it right and making the most out of his abilities and standing.

  19. Chris wrote:

    #19 - When you promote for 20 years, you won’t be singing that same tune. The Statesmen and Blackwoods never promoted their own tour. Gaither and EH&SS do. We promoters used to be able to break even $ each year, losing money on small groups (Whisnants, DMBoys, Palmetto), and then making money on the big groups (Legacy5, EH&SS, BoothBrothers). But now we simply lose money yearly because the groups that attract people are either in town with Gaither the week before they’re with us, or they don’t come at all. That means promoters will eventually cease to exist, and the music will follow. So, you see, I have a unique perspective. Gaither is a great songwriter and promoter, and has been good for SG, but only for those in the Playtone Galaxy of Stars.

  20. quartet-man wrote:

    Chris, I guess it depends on the tune. Some songs like We Shall See Jesus I would still hope to be singing 20 years later, others not so much. ;)

    Now that I got the silliness out of the way, I understand your problem now. However, the way Gaither explained it once in his book was they did their own due to the lack of professionalism and followthrough. Too often Gaither would get into town and things would not be done. So, he decided to not surrender control of it to others who didn’t care as much and maybe had less at stake, and to just do it himself so he would know it was done. This is in no way a slam toward you as I don’t know what type of promoter you would be. However, I understand Gaither’s side of this too. There is far too much unprofessionalism in SG. I have seen it myself. So, I still don’t think that he is trying to take over as much as he isn’t outsourcing. It is sort of like someone who fixes things in their house or on their car instead of hiring someone.

    It is a shame that you are in the mess you are. However, in some ways, perhaps this will get the groups who lose money the incentive to take it up a notch or they will cease to exist. As long as someone else is covering for them (i.e. making the money) they won’t put out the effort to become better or do it right. Why should they in their mind if things are working fine the way it is?

    With that being said, short of Gaither promoting more acts besides the ones under his umbrella, I don’t know what will happen if promoters can no longer promote. I presume it could be like I said earlier or else the groups will decide it is too much trouble or above their abilities and they will cease to exist.

    So, I still don’t think he is trying to take over the industry. Even if other promoters fold, he isn’t trying to squeeze them out, he is just doing it himself and if others come to him for promotion (besides the ones working for him) and he takes them, it is because he has the money and skill to do it. It doesn’t mean that some don’t, just that the money isn’t there. I wish you well.

  21. Leebob wrote:

    Speaking of promoting….What exactly is the promoter’s job or purpose? Let’s really get something started.

  22. Ethan wrote:

    #19 let me see if I understand. Gaither and EHSS should cede all control of their tours so you can make a dollar? What is wrong with them controlling their tours?

  23. not a grammarian wrote:

    That reminds me of a line from The Princess Bride where Miracle Max says “Thank you so much for bringing up such a painful subject. While you’re at it, why don’t you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it?”
    It’s been my experience that some promoters actually promote (duh!) and they are the ones who are generally successful and stay around for years and years. Other “promoters” see an opportunity to make some quick money, but lack an understanding of what the artist’s purpose is and what the end consumer (fan) is looking for and get burned (or burned out) because they are looking for (mainly) financial advantage.

  24. Chris wrote:

    Promoters doing it for the money? Hahahahaha. Good one. No. We do it to help perpetuate the music. If we did it for the money, all that would be left is NQC, Gaither, and Bill Bailey (and he would be close to not promoting as well). Read my posts carefully. Gaither is becoming (has become) quite wealthy at the DIRECT expense of local promoters. It may be good for SG now, but it will cripple it in the future because many promoters will call it quts (which equals fewer groups able to get enough dates to survive). And please don’t tell me I dont’ know what I’m talking about. I do. I see it first hand, as do all the promoters in the SGPA.

    I’m also suprised at the Gaither Aplogetics course I’m getting here.

  25. Robert wrote:

    Chris, I have to agree with you on one point. I think maybe Gaither is the only one in SG making any money.
    God bless you for only promoting to “perpetuate the music”, but isn’t that just another example of how everything in SG seems to be a charity case. Even promoting SG concerts. I don’t doubt what you say is true, but do you really think it is all Gaither’s fault?
    Maybe everyone can team up with Gaither and we can all make money.

  26. quartet-man wrote:

    Chris, Gaither was wealthy a long time before he got into promotion, I am sure. He has made a lot of money outside of promotion and that is not at the expense of local promoters. His videos has brought a lot of PR to Sg music and groups, so he has helped it grow. Sure, that can cause the groups to have bigger flats and if promoters are not able to stay in the game it doesn’t do them any good, but according to you you guys aren’t making money anyhow. In fact that is a contradiction. There apparently is money to be made there. One of the many problems in America is that when someone becomes successful by skill, hard work, and knowledge, the have nots want to shoot them down. I understand that it is harder for an upstart or smaller scale business to compete with the Wal*mart’s of the world, but neither Gaither or Wal*mart started out huge. They worked hard, knew their stuff and became successful. Then, they continued to work hard. I understand that perhaps Wal*mart might have done some things that we wouldn’t agree with, and those should be dealt with one by one. I am not so sure about Gaither. Just because someone becomes successful doesn’t mean they took over or were dishonest. Utilizing your position to grow is not wrong unless you do unethical or illegal things. Otherwise, it comes down to competition.

    If you want to see the music grow, then Gaither taking SG places and giving them a forum to be seen (videos, television etc.) should make you happy. It is far more healthy than it was when he “took over” although admittedly I am sure it is harder for the smaller businesses to make it. Really, it isn’t fair to expect the top tier groups to carry the lesser ones which is what happened as you described it. Basically, I would say you need to find better ways of doing things or get out. I don’t mean that in a bad way, but if things are as you describe them,. maybe you should try to grow the music in some other way or hang in there and do your best as it is. To expect Gaither to give up control of part of his business or “future” as a form of charity shows the entitlement expectations that our country has developed. It also shows how things are in schools where each kid gets a trophy because if there is only one winner the other kids feel left out. I am not picking on you even if it appears that way. I am debating your points and what I see as a lot of common attitudes in the industry. In fact, when the business changed in the sixties and the first booking agency was formed, promoters cried foul and some refused initially to go along with it. However, I think the business became more professional because of it. Maybe that is what is happening again.

  27. wackythinker wrote:

    #26 — You go, man! Great comments. If my business isn’t working, I either have to either work smarter or get out. And it doesn’t matter if it’s a ministry-based business or a grocery store, the principle is the same.

    In fact, grocery store is a prime example. 50 years ago and more, most towns of any size had a small grocery store in every neighborhood. Sometimes 2 or more. Supermarkets (Kroger, et al) “took over” and the mom & pop stores “couldn’t compete”. Or so they thought.

    The wiser ones diversified or specialized, and thrived. Some went back to the old model of the depression, and began selling gasoline. Now, even though most convenience stores are corporate-owned, there are still many independents. Some began specializing in fresh meat or seafood. Other fresh vegatable or organic foods. They gave the consumer somthing they couldn’t get at most supermarkets.

    Same with Christian bookstores, greeting card stores, dress shops, barber/beauty shops, etc. One thing many mom-and-pop operations have learned they can do better than the big corporations is customer service. That’s almost non-existant in big box retailers.

    So maybe, as a promoter, there’s something you can do differently or more consumer-responsive that Gaither isn’t doing. Or maybe you can learn his model, and duplicate it, maybe on a smaller scale, in towns he’s not currently servicing. Learn what he and the other successful promoters are doing right, what they’re doing wrong, but don’t just try to mimick. Learn. You don’t have to be big to be successful.

    My dad always told me, “you don’t have to work hard, if you learn to work smart.” A little of both probably wouldn’t hurt.

  28. Chris wrote:

    #26: nobody expects Gaither to give up his empire, nor would anyone ask. This all stems from the statement I made that HE HAS taken over the concert industry by starting big and then eating up more market share. It’s smart business. It doesn’t mean that any promoter has to like it. How did we get from Jason Waldroup to talking about Gaither on this blog? Oh yeah. When everybody took a (true) reference I wrote to make a point about why people shouldn’t hate Greater Vision. Can we get back to that?

  29. quartet-man wrote:

    #28 Chris, by your original comments it sounds like Gaither deserves to be hated for “taking over” or at the very least it would be understandable because it was wrong. I suppose you could just mean that he has ruffled feathers. Taking over also sounds like it was dishonest or that he has control over the entire industry which simply isn’t true.

  30. Chris wrote:

    Let it go, Mr Penrod. :)

  31. Jim2 wrote:

    If you are still out there (what with the thread being co-opted by that fiend Bill Gaither), read yesterday’s post by our host and you’ll find the real reason that so many of us check in on a daily basis.
    He’s literate, he cares about the music, and he makes insightful points that we can then dissect and argue about ad nauseum. So many complain about the negative tone, but really Doug just makes his observations- it’s his blog and his opinions, after all - and then the bloodsport begins.
    I see a lot more pettiness and prejudice from commenters. I also appreciate how he (Avery) doesn’t get involved in the back and forth banter (not that there’s anything wrong with that). I guess my point comes down to the definition of the word “criticism” in the subtitle. In my job I read tons of reviews - which are written by “critics”. If I disagree with them on the merit of an artist or author, I don’t get bent out of shape, it’s just a matter of taste and we can agree to disagree - they have an opinion and so do I. If you read with that attitude, youll get a lot out of the blog. If you find your blood pressure is still elevated, stop reading the comments for a while and just read Doug’s posts.

  32. quartet-man wrote:

    Chris, I am not Guy Penrod (I should be so blessed) nor any member or former member of the GVB, nor an employee or former employee of Gaither. :) Kyle (Warrior) has met me and can vouch for that too if he so chooses. :)

  33. cynical one wrote:

    Chris, I think you started this, not quartet man. As has been pointed out in previous posts, BG didn’t start his promotions “big”.

    He started promoting The Gaither Trio in the 1960’s as a matter of survival. He’s told this story more than once: Other promoters had hired the trio, but dropped the ball. The trio arrived for at least one concert where only 12 tickets had been sold. Bill decided then and there not to let anyone else cause him to drive 100’s of miles for a concert that was not properly promoted. For decades his staff promoted only the trio and their annual “Praise Gathering”.

    It wasn’t until the homecoming thing caught on that it expanded, but even now, their promotions are primarily for the benefit of the GVB. Everyone else is just ancillary.

    Bill’s story of arriving with only 12 tickets having been sold is a prime example of why many promoters not making money. “Build it and they will come?” Putting up a few posters is not promotion with a phone number on them is not concert promotion.

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