What’s the difference

Via DBM, I see last week’s SN poll asked what makes sg different than other forms of music. DBM thinks it’s the audience. Most people seem to think it’s lyrics and “music,” whatever that means. Who knows. Like all polls, this one oversimplifies a very complex question - in this case, one that I think quite literally will take a book to fully sort out. But stuff like this is pretty entertaining as cheap amateur anthropology.

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Comments

  1. Norm Graham wrote:

    I think DBM has a point about the audience making SGM different, especially the large portion of its audience who considers SGM a ministry and not entertainment.

    The impression I get from reading a lot of posts here is that because many consider SGM a ministry we shouldn’t be criticizing in any way the artists who are out to save souls. Thus, we shouldn’t demand that the musical and entertainment standards in SGM try to match those in other fields of music.

    Always loved JD’s response to a would-be SGM songwriter who told JD that “God gave him this song.” JD looked at it and said “No he didn’t. God wouldn’t write anything that bad.”

  2. Radioguy wrote:

    J-D also said back in the early 90’s that SGM was Christians singing to Christians. Although he didn’t say it, I believe he meant there were very few souls getting saved through SGM. That’s why he travelled with Elvis in the 70’s and I believe he did some dates with Dolly Parton in the 90’s. I don’t know to what extent.

  3. oldtimer wrote:

    # 2 - As one who is among the biggest of JD fans let me assure you that you got that one wrong. He may well have said that but that was not why he travelled with Elvis. He traveled with Elvis for a paycheck - a very good paycheck that could have never been rivaled singing dates for J G Whitfield and Poly Grimes et.al. JD said as much many times from stage. We have to remember that the reflective spiritual JD of the later Gaither years was not the rebel JD of the 70s. His own testimony bore that out. Rest assured that the Elvis dates were not done for purposes of evangelism.

    Chris

  4. BUICK wrote:

    Who says anything sets SG apart from the other genres? All types of music sing about what is important to their audience (surfboards & cars, drinkin’ & cheatin’, sunrises & sunsets, etc.) SG musicians sing about Jesus, the cross, heaven, the Word of God and a host of other things that matter to the SG audience.

    One of the reasons SG isn’t more popular is because the LORD and the things of the LORD are not popular. And, unless I have misunderstood what Jesus said at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, that will always be the case.

  5. Practical Fellow wrote:

    Re: #4 (Buick)

    I think your response is a little oversimplified. I agree that the nature and standards of a holy God are repulsive to a sinful world. That doesn’t exactly translate into CD/digital sales. But I don’t think that explains why SG sells less product than say, the music that falls under the umbrella of CCM. There are way, way too many factors to consider before making a blanket statement about the content of the lyrics being off-putting to the world. (Hasn’t Mercy Me had several explicitly Christian songs that charted on mainstream/secular radio? How do you explain that with this ‘despised by the world’ theory?)

    One issue that I think hurts the industry greatly is the low standards of SG radio. I know every genre of music has large numbers of indie artists who create music of middling quality (I’ve made my share of average albums too, thank you.) But in SG these independent artists can still get a fair amount of airplay on radio. Even when their song is poorly produced. Even when they have mediocre talent. Even the songs include trite rhyming patterns like life/strife, sod/trod and calvary with any word that ends in ‘ee’. (On a side note: who talks like that in 2008? Has anyone on this message board used the word ’sod’ or ‘trod’ in a sentence today? Some of the best songs are those that speak in the vernacular and voice of the current generation.) I think if we as an industry are honest with ourselves (ha!), we’d see that the level of production, writing and artistry on the whole is simply not up to snuff. Good music transcends genres and every once in a while a song in SG comes along that does that. And it tends to get noticed, if not by the world, at least by the church.

    I could go on and on with other issues that I think make SG different; for good and for bad. I think the business model and touring schedule of most groups is dysfunctional and wreaks havoc on the artists’ families. But I think some really great songs for the church come from this industry too. Songs that matter. Songs that don’t just paint a picture of the pain, but offer hope and reassurance. Songs that don’t include the word ’sod’…

  6. quartet-man wrote:

    #5 Practical Fellow asks if anyone on this board has used the words trod and sod in a sentence today? Yeah, you just did and now so did I. ;)

  7. BUICK wrote:

    Good points, PracticalFellow. God/sod/trod - pretty trite stuff. Why can’t we have people who write lyrics like these from other musical styles.

    One of the top songs on this week’s Billboard 100 includes these serious rhymes:
    I kissed a girl and I liked it
    The taste of her cherry chap stick
    I kissed a girl just to try it
    I hope my boyfriend don’t mind it
    (SG just doesn’t have enough songs that include references to Cherry Chap Stick!)

    Or this one from a few years back:
    I’m the life of the party
    (Every time I show up)
    I’m the life of the party
    (Every time I blow up)
    I’m the life of the party
    (Every time I show up)
    I’m the life of the party
    (Every time I blow up)
    (Now those are words you can build your life on!)

    Or, from an even earlier era:
    Mares eat oats and
    Does eat oats and
    Little lambs eat ivy
    A kid’ll eat ivy, too
    Wouldn’t you?
    (Sometimes I just meditate on those and consider how empty my life might have been had I not known about the dietary preferences of the flocks and herds.)

    You are right, SG lyrics are so…well…so trite.

    But, then again, it may be that the public at large (not the CCM crowd or other Christian genres) find the lyrics of SG music to be offensive, not because they are trite but because they are NOT trite. They convict us of sin and that isn’t much fun to dance to. They take the focus off of self and put it on a Holy God and that is not very popular in our hedonistic society. They call us to righteousness and its kind of hard to get drunk to music like that.

    I contend that if you take the same message and package it in the wrapping of pop, hip hop, rap, country or any other style of music, the appeal will still be very limited because people will not like the message. The exceptions have tended to be the cross-over songs that obscured the message with such GENUINELY trite lyrics as “it can’t be wrong when it feels so right.” That one sold well but it told the immoral what they wanted to hear all along.

    Don’t get me wrong. There is certainly room for improvement in SG music. But is it the goal of the industry to out sell Coldplay and Usher? Or is it to sing the truth even if people don’t like to hear the truth?

    Many a media preacher has compromised his message for the sake of a wider audience and a bigger wage. A few SG groups went down that road, too. They proved that they had the talent to sing country or some other style of music. But they did so at the expense of their ministry.

    (At least that is the way it seems to my over-simplified mind and my unsophisticated logic. But then again, I’ve trod this sod for a lot of years so I probably don’t know as much about this as some of the rest of you. ;-)

  8. philip elwood wrote:

    I have to agree with #5.Gospel lyrics/music will be accepted by a mainstream audience if the artist is well enough known eg Elvis,Mahilia Jackson, Ray Charles etc. The black singers,especially,seem to come across better to the man in the street; not so shouty in your face as the so called ‘ministry groups’. Sure they can make a lot of noise,but,it somehow doesn’t seem like they’re trying to ram some religous viewpoint down your throat.Now to sidetrack slightly from the subject:i listened to three albums from the 70’s who sounded as good and up to date as anyone out there now. They were (in no particular order) The Three Galileans.The mcduff bros with big John Hall and The Lanny Wolf trio.Pure classic sg.I don’t want to go into Roy Pauley mode about it, but a bit more of that sort of stuff is what’s needed out there.

  9. philip elwood wrote:

    A footnote to my previous post:i got to thinking about the lyrical content of the most popular and widely accepted Gospel songs or Hymns,if you like,( for some of the olders tunes)to a mainstream or secular audience.My first thought was,lyrics that were pointed about themes such as hell, the cross,salvation and such would be a big turn off;however take Amazing grace or The old rugged cross, massively popular worldwide to , i imagine, widely diverse ears.No one could argue the depth of the words of those two songs.Perhaps it’s that depth and profundity that makes it hard for even the most cynical and captious to sneer at. Either that or it’s just a maudling nostalgic tug of the heartstrings about their dear old long gone God fearing granny. You never could tell….

  10. Janet wrote:

    Just to add my two cents in here…One of my biggest pet peeves about SGM is lack of imagination & originality in the lyrics & themes of the songs. I mean, how many songs about the Prodigal Son do we really need?
    As far as “trod” & “sod” go, they rhyme with “God.” I guess we could try “nod,” “mod,” (or “Maude”), “bod,” “pod,” or “cod.” Ooh, or even Aaron’s “rod.”
    Ok, now the two cents going back in my pocket…

  11. Elisabeth wrote:

    I think a good deal of the difference is the never-ending debate/conflict of ministry vs. entertainment. As many people on this site have stated, no other genre allows artists to get away with poorly written, played, produced, & sung songs simply because he/she is “doing it for the Lord.” And no other genre suspects an artist’s spirituality when he/she fails to respond to an email or spend 30 minutes with each and every fan listening to lists of prayer requests, reasons they should or should not sing a certain way, and “the new song I wrote that would be just perfect for y’all!!” Am I advocating snobby and/or uncaring artists? No - just pointing out that there is a very fine line (get that? haha) between ministry and entertainment, and we can see the struggle of artists and audiences alike as they try to reconcile the two into something pleasing to the Lord and to people’s ears. What do you guys think?

  12. Brian wrote:

    #7 Buick…Preach On!!

  13. Phil Boles wrote:

    #3…. A Rebel J.D? I cant imagine that, but then im only 17 and only knew J.D through the Gaither Gospel Series

    Im a massive fan of J.D, I always assumed that he did the touring with Elvis to reach a wider audience of people with the Gospel through music and song?

  14. wackythinker wrote:

    Buick — I pretty-much agree with your line of thought.

    You missed one of my favorite songs of the 50’s. It’s lyric is SOOOOO deep:

    You-oo-oo-oo send me;
    You-oo-oo-oo send me;
    You-oo-oo-oo send me;
    Honest, you do.
    Honest, you do.
    Honest, you do.

    You-oo-oo-oo thrill me;
    You-oo-oo-oo thrill me;
    You-oo-oo-oo thrill me;
    Honest, you do.
    Honest, you do.
    Honest, you do.

    And in the 80’s there was a pop song that said:

    I want you,
    I need you,
    But there ain’t no way
    I’m ever gonna love you,
    but two out of three ain’t bad.

    If that don’t make you want to go hug your sweety, nothin’ will.

    All-in-all, this is an interesting subject, but Doug is right. It would take a book to fully sort it out.

    And a very large book, at that.

  15. nonsgfan wrote:

    if you ask me, SG has become the most redundant and wore out music in the world. Wether it’s the too-long held out notes at the end of the song, or the goofy grins, hand upon the chest, or tapping of mike to keep rythym, its all wore out, overdone, and unoriginal. My grandpa often makes fun of the “hand upon the chest”. I think these SG artists thinks that makes them look sincere, it actually makes them look retarded.

  16. nonsgfan wrote:

    So to continue my rant, the only unique thing about southern gospel music, is that it is the only industry that continues to do the same ole things that aren’t working. Look up the word “insane” in the dictionary it you’ll find “trying the same thing expecting a different result”. The industry is declining because there is a “Generational” change. The “Older” ones are dying off, and young people hate the stuff. Of course there is an influx of younger artists (Crabbs, Mcraes) that are trying to “Break the Mold”, but CCM has trumped SG by a long shot.

  17. jbb wrote:

    I am not a song writer, but, the songs that speak to my heart and prick my soul are the ones that seem “simple”. We make serving the Lord so difficult, when in fact, it shouldn’t be. We don’t want to be challenged or convicted. If I am not being convicted, then I better watch out. Ministers HAVE compromised how they preach to keep everyone happy and the paycheck coming. That is one thing we don’t have to worry about at our church, our pastor doesn’t compromise. You are either saved or your lost, heaven bound or hell bound. No gray area…..

  18. matureman wrote:

    #5 Practical Fellow wrote…”Some of the best songs are those that speak in the vernacular and voice of the current generation.”

    But…but…who wants to listen to a song with “like” every other phrase?

    Really, though, I agree with you, PF, to a great extent, setting aside the wonderful old hymns of the past. They are not in the same league and still carry the mail.

    On SG songs… have you ever noticed how selfish some of our SG songs sound? It’s all about Me, what God is doing for Me, etc., instead of who You, God, are and have been through the Ages. Jesus sacrifice gets a bare mention in many songs and then back to Me…if I’d been the only one, etc.

    Now, I know there are songs of testimony, songs of praise, story songs and many other kinds but it seems that, many times, there is an over emphasis on “me”. It seems this is a failing of a lot of CCM songs… songs of a selfish generation. Don’t believe this is a selfish generation? Ask someone of the past two generations to do some work around the church for an extended period of time that doesn’t directly impact their family… you’ll see.

    Well, if God inhabits the praise of His people, He should be the focal point!

    Other than that, everything’s great!

  19. Phil Taylor wrote:

    i disagree with ms.#11. most musical genres have their fair share of mediocre artists, songs and music. in rock and country they never get past the bar band stage, and many are now using their computers and the internet to foist their talent on the larger public that might find their myspace page. rap and hip hop are the same.
    as for the mediore sg music finding radio, how much sg radio is non-commercial. there is no budget to purchase the better quality music. instead these stations take the free music from groups willing to walkin off the streets…
    as a fan i can tell you if i’m not entertained i most likely won’t be ministered to…

  20. BUICK wrote:

    I hate to but I have to agree with Nonsgfan. SG is in a Catch-22. If the artists do classic SG music, the style is very retro and evocative of the Ink Spots, barbershop quartets and The Mordernaires. If the artists change the style, at best they will not get the bookings or sell the product to the people who want and support traditional SG music. At worst, they will get pilloried and branded as infidels for abandoning the genre. (For some, to forsake the traditional SG sound is tantamount to forsaking the Lord! Just look at how the industry treated The Imperials when they went with their Jesus People sound.)

    Folk, we probably ought to admit that SG is a niche market. (So is Dixieland Jazz, Drum & Bugle Corps music and Big Band music: all of which I love.) Make the music for the people who love it and stop coveting the sales of the other styles of music. If I really liked Alicia Keys, that’s what I’d buy and that’s what I would listen to. As it is, I like the traditional sound of the Dove Brothers, the Booth Brothers and even (gasp!!) Signature Sound. Change the style and I’ll just keep listening to the CDs I already own.

    I don’t go to concerts by MercyMe (isn’t that the little guy that hung on the chest of Austin Powers in that spy movie?) or Casting Crowns. And I do not plan to because I don’t care for that style of music. But I support traditional SG by attending concerts and purchasing products because I DO like that style of music.

    I’ve been accused of being simplistic but it really does seem pretty simple to me. If you want to have the market of secular music, sing secular music. If you want to listen to country, tune it in (it’s ALL OVER the airwaves!). And if you want to sing SG in my area, I’ll probably see you at the product table…with cash in my hand.

  21. David Bruce Murray wrote:

    Big budget radio doesn’t have to purchase music for airplay. Quite the opposite.

  22. Sgdoc wrote:

    I don’t know what’s different. Do other genres steal other’s ideas for albums? Ernie Hasse just released an album called “Influenced”. Geeze, talk about steping on the little man. I guess new album ideas are hard to come by these days. Its been a well known fact in gospel music news that the Dan Keeton Quartet titled their new album “influenced” and based the concept on their influences. I know DKQ is not the caliber of Ernie but, I guess all you need is internet access and some balls and you got yourself a new album idea.

  23. Leebob wrote:

    OK….great topic! SG - message tends to be more Biblically based (except for many of our “heaven” songs) and less relationally (subject to the mood of the singer) based. SG songs tend to have a beginning an end and a way of getting from one to the other. SG songs tend to be less repetative than the CCM 747 songs (7 words 47 times over) “I could sing this song forever” immediately comes to mind.

    SG tends to have a wider variety of styles and groups than CCM. Those occassions where I do listen to CCM 30 minutes is about it for me because the songs tend to sound the same regardless of the message.

    Both genres have extremely talented people but with SG you may have just a piano and four people singing, a guitar and three people, full orchestration or less orchestration, Banjos, drums or not drums. CCM you will usually have a lead guitar, a bass, drums, and perhaps a horn of some sort.

    I don’t knock CCM because obviously they have an audience. The audience generally cares very little about personal appearance (SG crowds are alot more easy on the eyes) and leans toward more enthusiasm, a trait I wish more of our SG crowds would exhibit (They can’t help it they are tired).

    I have long held that we are for the most part Christians singing to Christians, edufying the believer and building up the church. We have designed our ministry around this premise to make us more effective toward our audience and accountable to God for our time. We hope to see the results of our time at a church AFTER we have left and the believer to be encouraged with a deeper walk with our Lord making a longer lasting impact.

    Any thoughts out there? I know I missed something because my ADD has gone into hyper-drive on this subject.

  24. jbb wrote:

    LeeBob: I agree with the part of seeing results “after” we leave. One plants, one waters, and one sees the harvest.
    Right now the song playing on my computer says “even in the valley, God is Good, even the valley, he is faithful and true”. Nothing hard to understand in that. What a promise. I could shout!!!

  25. Aaron Swain wrote:

    #22: That is true, but I’m pretty sure DKQ’s wasn’t in the style of the radio shows of the 40s and 50s. Also, I believe there’s was actually a live recording. Both albums may have the same title, but they are different enough that it doesn’t look like one is copying the other.

  26. Revpaul wrote:

    #18 Matureman is right on when he mused that in todays SG “It’s all about Me, what God is doing for Me, etc.” But it’s not just in SG. Look in the index of your traditional hymnal and you’ll be amazed to see how many songs begin with the word “I”.

  27. Jake wrote:

    I think there is another side to this whole argument about why SG isn’t growing the way CCM is, and unfortunately, there isn’t anything we can do about it. It is the whole issue of people’s tastes. I love SG music, especially good quartet singing. Yet I know Christians that simply cannot stand to listen to SG music, while they love CCM. It has nothing to do with the words or the artists, just musical taste.

    Think about it. In the “secular” world of music, many people have preferences, whether it be classical, pop, rock, or country. Some like them all, some like certain types, many prefer only one style. While this may be very broad strokes, a lot of CCM music is more closely related to rock & pop styles, while much of our SG music is more closely related to country. (I didn’t say they were equal, only related.)

    We aren’t going to get everyone to like SG music, no matter what we do. Unfortunately, this includes Christians. We need to do what we do with excellence, and seek to be as broadly appealing as we can without compromising where we shouldn’t, but at the end of the day we need to realize the SG music is a particular style of music, which some enjoy immensely, others can take or leave, and yet others simply do not enjoy just because of what it is.

  28. Progressor wrote:

    I think what really needs to happen is a split in SG music. I think there is a lot of diversity. Maybe too much. I think it’s very hard to program radio for the guy that likes the Inspirations and follow it up with a song for the guy that likes the Crabb family. Both are good in their own right, but are musically very different. CCM sort of did this years ago during the “worship” movement. Many labels now have a seprate Worship label for those artists. I don’t know what you would call it..but groups like Jason Crabb, Crossway, etc. would be in it. I think maybe Spring Hill is headed that way, dropping most of their “southern gospel” groups and starting over. I don’t have a problem with any style as long as it’s done well. But I think the diversity is hurting the industry by trying to pack it all under one general genre. It hurts both ends equally. Imagine two churches one advertises “Southern gospel group Crabb Revival tonight!” and the other says “Southern gospel group The McKamey’s tonight!” Both great groups, just very different, but categorized into the same genre. Does anybody see what I’m getting at?

  29. thom wrote:

    no genre of music is going to appeal to everyone. that’s why there are different genres! one person likes vanilla, another pumpkin spice amaretto, etc.

    many of you are comparing SG to CCM. Each genre has different styles within it.
    CCM includes acts that are edgy and trendy as well as those with a more conservative style. how can rap, hiphop, inspo, contemporary, and Michael W. Smith all fit in the same classification?
    It’s all considered to be CCM from what I understand.

    So when you talk about SG - how can McKameys, Crossway, Crabbs, Ponder, Sykes and Wright, Inspirations, BFA, Perrys, Austins Bridge,and Michael Combs all fit in the same classification?
    Aren’t they are all considered SG.

    The biggest difference is the business machine behind the scenes. I believe that secular music has proven that if you pour enough money and marketing into even the cheesiest act with minimal talent you can sell records and achieve “star” status. So some of the CCm acts that have been mentioned here may be popular in the commercial sense of the word and appeal to a mass of people, sell lots of records etc, But, I contend that it is not due to the spirituality of the music but rather due to the amounts of money and marketing put into them.

    If you had the publicity and business machine (money) behind some of our best SG artists that you have behind say ‘Mercy Me’ or a “Casting Crowns’ you would see a huge difference in their commercial success. Or if someone like Micheal W. Smith took “The Ball Brothers” under his wing as he did “Leeland” and gave them the platform and exposure those kids have had you would see a huge difference in their perceived success.

    Someone else mentioned how that SG is a sub-genre of music like Polka or Dixieland,etc. and that is true. Actually, SG is a sub-genre of Christian music that is but a sliver of the total music market.

    The message in the music is what sets SG apart. The themes of the Cross, the Blood, the Ressurection, etc. are unashamedly proclaimed by SG music.
    Listen to most CCM songs and you don’t know if they are singing about their girlfriend, their dog, or The Lord.

    i’ll stop rambling now……………..

  30. Leebob wrote:

    #28 Progressor - Maybe you are on to something. This is why I said that SG is the most diverse genre in the music industry. I disagree that the diversity is hurting the industry. I personally believe this is one of our strengths, especially when you have that diversity find its way into one group (i.e. Booth Brothers). They are maintaining the older generation yet reaching out to a younger generation….wow balance… imagine that.

  31. Al Locke wrote:

    This is a VERY secular way of looking at “our” genre. When there is a market/demand for “it”, they will buy “it”. New artists are trying new things……the market is going to accept or reject it. It will seek it’s own level. We can all here judge what is good, what is bad…….the market will make the ultimate judgement.

  32. Ocean View wrote:

    #22 Sgdoc:

    1. Yes, Avalon and Michael W. Smith both released projects called “Stand” within a 12-month period. It happens in every genre.

    2. As for Southern Gospel, did the Dan Keeton Quartet borrow their title from Mike Bowling’s “Influenced and Inspired: Remembering Kenny Hinson” CD? I believe his project came out several years ago.

    3. No offense, but I’ve not heard of DKQ until this very moment. (If your goal was to bring attention to the group, you succeeded, because I did visit their website.) I would wager that Ernie Haase and SSQ are truly unaware of the title being used by that group.

    4. Regardless, album titles and song titles are not copyright protected, so there’s no conflict in any case.

  33. matureman wrote:

    Some say SG plateaued when Country Gospel became the predominate influence. That’s about the time when our new singers quit going to the singing schools to learn to read music and to master the vocals.

    Going to music school or even singing in an accomplished choir with a good choir leader/teacher would make better vocalist of most Country singers. It would be the difference in, say, Roy Acuff and Eddy Arnold. Both were popular, sang in some of the same circuits, etc., but, one sounded less polished than the other. I’ll bet Arnold could have sounded like Acuff if he wanted but then had the ability to change to a smooth ballad with an orchestra. He could do either. My guess is that if the first thousand people in the phone book were given a choice of a concert by either singer, most would take Arnold.

    A great number of today’s SG singers are limited in what they can do and mired in the “genre” of today’s SG. How, then, can a group learn new or more complex arrangements?

    Now, there will be some readers that will take umbrage to that view of SG status and history. It really started in the middle to early 60’s as I recall. I won’t call names but I’m not thinking of the Goodmans. There were a lot of one-hit-wonders in that day and time and I dropped out of SG and concerts, etc. by 1970 and didn’t pay much attention again until the early eighties. There was a significant drop in quality and it was painful to listen to some of the groups… as a matter of fact, sometimes, it still is.

    Unless a young person of today likes Country, they probably won’t be attracted to a lot of today’s SG. Nothing against SCG… it is what it is but our three and four part harmony has morphed into something else and not to everyone’s taste. We have popular groups that sing “harmony” with two singers doubling each other an octave apart. Now, come on. Once in a while OK but to not know the difference?

    With that level of skill headlining some of our concerts, how can we be admired and respected as a sliver of mainstream music? How can we fill seats with anyone outside of our regular fans who are gradually fading away before our eyes? Let me tell you that Country fans can tell the difference when a song or group is extraordinarily accomplished. That’s why they pay big bucks to get into a Gaither Production.

  34. quartet-man wrote:

    #14 Wackythinker. It looks like you own the Gaither Trio Live Across America lp or cassette. Am I right?. :)

  35. quartet-man wrote:

    #22, and Russ Taff did a CD nearly 20 years ago called under their influence and the Oaks did an lp over 40 years ago called Songs We Wish We’d Recorded First.

  36. quartet-man wrote:

    747 songs are traditionally P&W songs, not CCM. They are two different things.

  37. Dan Keeton wrote:

    OOOOHHHHH, Great minds think alike…Mike Bowling, Ernie Hasse and….ME!

  38. Practical Fellow wrote:

    Dear Buick,

    pthbbbbb!

    Sincerely,
    Practical Fellow

    P.S. Your arguments are still oversimplified and mildly ignorant. But I do envy how black and white everything must seem at your house.

  39. Rhonda wrote:

    I am going to go slightly off topic on this one.
    Nonsgfan please learn the meaning of the word ‘retarded’. It means slow, not stupid or ridiculous.
    If you want to say it looks fake, absurd, or ridiculous go right ahead and judge the singers that way (because that is what you are doing), but do not insult people like my daughter by misusing the word ‘retarded’.

  40. BUICK wrote:

    Rhonda #39, thanks. That needed to be said.

    Now, let’s see: Practical Fellow’s reasoned and sophisticated response to what I have submitted is “Pthbbbb!” I guess I ought to spell this out: the reason I did not advance my theory in a more complex and detailed way was so that people for whom “Pthbbb” is considered an intelligent rebuttal, could still follow the line of thought.

    And with that, I will retire from this thread. No sense casting my pearls before a Practical Pig. (That is a Scriptural allusion that may have escaped you so you might want to ask someone else what it means.)

  41. nonsgfan wrote:

    Rhonda, my grandmother is mentally handicapped. It’s a figure of speech. Don’t get out of shape you’ll spend your whole life angry. Also, I apologize if I “offended” you.
    Fact is, thats exactly what i’m saying. They look “Slow” in learning because they really don’t have a comprehension of how ridiculous they look. Especially women. It’s almost vulgar. SG has become a market for somewhat talented people to make money. CCM devotes MOST of it’s music to the worship of a God, whereas SG devotes most of it’s time talking about heaven, blessings, me, mine, me, mine and I. There must be a revival of creativity and talent in SG or else it will die. Just like any other thing in life that is dependant on a generation, once the generation is gone, so goes the market. Baby boomers are leaving. The new generation despises SG, and most middle aged christians would rather hear Rascal Flatts, Carrie Underwood, or John Mayer. The future of SG is dependant on the youth, and they despise it.

  42. Daniel J. Mount wrote:

    #25 (and before) - release dates notwithstanding, since Signature Sound spends so long on their recording projects there is a decent change they started theirs before DKQ started theirs.

  43. Practical Fellow wrote:

    Re: #41 “The future of SG is dependant on the youth, and they despise it.”

    I think nonsgfan has a point. (Please don’t start naming all the young people at your church that still like SG as a rebuttal.) I assume he/she is referencing youth in general across the country.

    But I do feel a glimmer of hope with groups like Austins Bridge who may have the best chance at connecting with the next generation. They’ve got the vocal talent, the appropriately messy hair and styling, and they play instruments and write. I’m not sure they totally fall within the bounds of SG - but they’ve been accepted into the radio fold so that’s good.

    It occurs to me that one issue (of many) that youth have with SG is that many of the artists don’t play an instrument. If they do, they don’t play while they sing. Or they primarily use tracks to perform with. I think this comes across as unauthentic to a cynical, media-wise generation. These kids know that technology can make anyone sound good on a record and even live in concert. They connect with live bands who play and write their own music and can communicate authenticity. I think some of the overexaggerated performances of SG, along with lyrical content and other issues drive them away. I wonder if another generation would discover and embrace quartet singing if a producer like David Foster reintroduced the genre to the mainstream market, much like he did with Michael Buble and Josh Groban with their respective genres. Actually, I would love to see someone do that; produce a neo-quartet record. I guess Signature Sound comes sort of close, but then again, they perform with some of those exaggerated moves I mentioned earlier.

    Sorry Doug - I got sidetracked…

  44. Progressor wrote:

    #30 Leebob, Another example of how I think our diversity is hurting the industry is the fact that a lot of my “CCM” loving friends won’t go to a southern gospel concert with me unless I let them preview the style of southern gospel first. Because of what pops in their head when they hear “southern gospel”. The same reason a lot of southern gospel fans won’t even give CCM a try because of all of the negative talk on boards like this about lyrics, etc. Yet those same folks will turn on their local country station and listen to that???? SCC’s lyrics are all backed up by a scripture in liner notes. Many more examples I could list.

    For the same reasons I don’t listen to very much SG radio, programming is awful. SG radio needs to learn to say no and have tougher criteria to get on the air.

    Don’t get me wrong. I’m not for the continuing watering down of lyrics which does happen. But I’m also not going to condemn a group putting out possitive lyrics on the same album as the Gospel message either. I’ve heard more cursing from many a unsuspecting quartet who didn’t think anyone was listening than I have in any CCM song, so lets not start throwing stones at judging lyrical intent with CCM artists or to say that SG artists are more “spritual” than CCM.

  45. Rhonda wrote:

    Nonsgfan,
    My daughter is 17, and that wasn’t as bent out of shape as I could have gotten. With a mentally handicapped grandmother you should have known better. Besides it wasn’t the word itself, actually, it was the tone. Using the word correctly it doesn’t sound derogatory (it isn’t) but your original use was. Therefore, you know you actually meant something else and used the wrong word.
    Also, I am not angry by any stretch of the imagination, and I am sure my post didn’t reflect that, so you also need to learn the old adage about assuming. To make this point clear before I address the topic, my daughter has won two special youth awards through our association here. She won them by being just who she is-a loving caring girl who brings joy to anyone she meets. At our events she greets just about everyone with a smile and she acts better than many “normal” adults I have seen. She loves SG music (and Hannah Montana and Taylor Hicks) and doesn’t have any of these issues we all love to beat to death here. She also likes Casting Crowns and Audio Adrenaline. When we pray before bed I ask her questions about Jesus, hoping someday she will come to that understanding we all hope for in our kids. One of the one’s I ask her is about Jesus love for her. The first time I asked her that she looked at me and said “Duh, He told me so Mom”. Childlike faith. We all have our preferences in music and I can be as partisan as the next person, but she has the essence of it all.

    Progressor,
    Take my word for it, Leebob knows exactly what you mean when you talk about what people’s first thoughts are about sg. When he first asked his brother to join the group in 1998, his brother’s response was “Southern Gospel? Isn’t that the twangy stuff?” That was 10 years ago. Since then his two younger brothers have developed into two of the best vocalists in this area and Lee is right up there with them. Now there is another top notch vocalist who is with them whenever he is available to add a different dimension. This was where Lee wanted to take it from the beginning. He learned to wait on the Lord’s timing in all things, and in addition to what can be brought vocally to a performance they each have strengths and weaknesses to compliment each other. And they know what they are.

    As for whoever said that many young people won’t listen to sg because of the lack of onstage instruments, I say you are wrong. It isn’t the lack of instruments, it is the lack of life on the stage. The lack of excitement. When four people get on stage and barely smile or move then talk more than they sing, there will be less response. The problem with many sg groups today (and some national groups are in this category) is that they don’t look or sound excited about what they are doing. Here in DFW there is an event called Celebrate Freedom. Five of my 6 children have been to this every year. They love it because of the energy. Now my kids know and love sg as well (when done right) and they came home and told me that in between acts last year they were playing Signature Sound stuff. No matter what any of us think from an SG point of view of them, SSQ is reaching the young people. I asked my kids about the reaction to the SSQ stuff and it was overwhelmingly positive from kids who do not like SG normally. Most of SSQ’s stuff is quartet music so what is the difference? Energy, excitement, oh and don’t forget quality. When we start to recognize that many of our people are missing one or all of these key ingredients, then we will understand the difference. Another SG group that the young people like is The Booth Brothers. Again, energy, excitement, and quality.

    We can argue lyrics, styles, etc all day long, but in the end it is letting the world know we love what we do and are excited about it and can do it as good as the world. Until we get that, we are just arguing in circles never coming up with a solution.

  46. nonsgfan wrote:

    Practical has a valid point. Im not very far removed from this generation so I understand them pretty well. THEY DO LOVE live music. Talent goes a long way. That’s why The Crabb boys were so flamin hot with young people, they burn up every instrument they touch. But it’s not just one thing, but a mix of lots of things.
    1. Talent, vocal and instrumental
    2. Stage Presence (SG needs non-corny gestures, stop doing the fake smile, hand on chest, etc)
    3.Better songs (SG songs today are shallow, empty, and redundant)
    4.HUMILITY (ppl hate arrogance. I took a young man to Talley Trio Concert, and we met Lauren. His exacty words were “She thinks she’s all that don’t she”? She flipped her hair, batted her eyes, and acted lke the queen of England. But that could have been due to my extreme good looks also. :)

  47. jbb wrote:

    #46: How do you know the smiles are “fake” and the “hand on chest”. I smile all the time I am singing. I’m happy about what I’m singing about and it comes across that way. Some people say, “don’t just stand there”, others say “don’t smile or raise a hand”…Whats a person to do?LOL
    I do just what God impresses upon me to do. Holy Cow, I might even shout one of these days.

  48. wackythinker wrote:

    quartetman– no, but I did hear Gloria do that bit many, many years ago.

    nonsgfan — I’m not so sure I’d agree that “CCM devotes MOST of it’s music to the worship of a God”. I’ve heard a LOT of what claims to be CCM that has little or nothing to do with God. A lot of it is interpersonal relational. Some of it asks deep questions, but never offers an answer, let alone the God may be the answer.

    Daniel J Mount — In the case of this EHSSQ cd, it was recorded quickly. I was at their concert in Nashville over the weekend, and purchased the cd. In the liner notes, it tells it was concieved by Ernie and producer Wayne Hahn in March of this year, at P F Changs in Columbus, OH (don’t that bless your heart). Less than 3 months from that conversation to finished product on the table. A bit out of the norm for a top-tier group (uh oh, there we go again, using that term. I’m sure I’ll hear about it.).

    But I’ll be honest with you: although I am enjoying the cd, I wish they’d taken the time to do some tuning. Ernie’s pitch problems are evident. Kinda like the first couple of EHSS cd’s. Great song selection, and great arrangements, too. And it appears the vocals are not “stacked” as we usually hear from this group. All in all, it’s a pretty good recording.

    And that’s all I’ve got to say about that.

  49. Southern Gospel Fan wrote:

    Anybody concerned or unconcerned about young people liking SG.
    Just check out EHSSQ website and then tell me young people hate sg.
    Go to one of their concerts or the Booth Brothers concerts,Then tell this white haired lady SG music is dying.
    Some of us older ones need to be really concerned about what we are teaching our young ones. Show me a good ole fashioned Godly family and I will show you some young people who love SG.

  50. nonsgfan wrote:

    There might be a SMALL SMALL SMALL SMALL percentage of young people that like it, but MOST hate it. meaning 99%. I am young, only 21 so i’m not speaking as a 50 year old ASSUMING young people like it because there was 50 young people at the last booth brothers concert. YOUNG PEOPLE HATE SOUTHERN GOSPEL. NOT ALL but most. I’m generalizing.

  51. Leebob wrote:

    #44 Progressor…this is another example of how the one who is close minded would be the CCM people rather than the SG fan. I have a wide variety of music that I enjoy but my favorite is SG because of the clear unashamed message that is presented. I like variety because I understand that kids don’t listen to the same music as their parents. When they do see me singing in choir (yes I STILL go to church) something contemporary, the kids are a little more open to listening when my brothers and I come to sing. Leading by example is the best way to influence people, not try to force it down their throats.

  52. antipathy wrote:

    #41 and #43 you have some great points. #49 wrote “Show me a good ole fashioned Godly family and I will show you some young people who love SG.” HUH???? You got part of it right. The :Old Fashioned” part. Being “Godly” has nothing to do with what style of music you like. Godly = Like God. I’m sure God loved to listen to David sing “When We All Get to Heaven” or “I’ll Fly Away”, strumming his harp at 160 beats per minute. LOL. God likes the songs with lyrics that worship Him. That’s why He put us here. To worship Him. If the song is not about Him, I’d venture to say He’s not interested. A large part of SG is not worship to Him. It is about, I’ll reference nonsgfan, “heaven, blessings, me, mine, me, mine and I”.

  53. Rod wrote:

    SG is already dead in the grand scheme of things…HOLD ON…It is a love hate thing…You either like it or you don’t and most people don’t. I agree mostly with nonsgfan…By the way if you’re a non fan…Why did you go to a Talley concert? To Heckle? I think you’re just trying to start a heated debate myself but those of us who agree with you are probably more serious about this issue…I am a contemporary Christian artist for the most part and our music is NOT redundant or shallow…Maybe CCM radio is a little…Try going to a Mercy Me concert or hearing Casting Crowns sing “who am I”. We tend to get in our own little world (Just like church people or denominations) and forget there are many different people, music, churches that aren’t like us but really love God and desire to make this world a better place. I do still like some SG music but it has lost its class and originality. Yes Ernie Haas is different. However, there is no way young people as a whole will embrace their antics or music. I do not care who posts an argument on this site…There is NO WAY…Rhonda you are wrong and probably fibbing a little because YOU like them so much and your children already like the music anyway. I bet you’re also here in the South. I challenge ANYONE on this site to let 100 church teenagers under 18 from different areas listen to a Ernie Haas CD and you might have 10 that will say “Hey that’s ok”. I sing a relatively CCM style of music in about 140 churches per year and I would be considered a great singer with a middle of the road CCM style and what I see and hear from young people no way coincides with “young people loving Ernie Haas”. I’m even a little traditional for most…GEEZ. Teenagers rarely like anything that is not popular in school and church…I know I have three in my house right now. 3 of the 100 agree with me and I have tried everything to get them to like SG music. They didn’t even like Austin’s Bridge…Too twangy…WHAT? For me personally I hear the same jokes from different groups, the same tired old arrangements and wonder how much longer we’re going to be subjected to this before real change takes place…I do think groups like Austin’s Bridge, Crossway and the like are bridging some of those generational gaps but as one poster mentioned about “the business machine” needing to pour those resources into THESE groups. I just think it may be too little too late. I think most churches and even some people would enjoy these groups but it has to be mass marketed. SG doesn’t have the money or those resources to make it happen. The only way for real change to happen is for NQC, SG radio, Singing News, and the labels to join forces and get some guts…Mostly they’re not going to that because of the immediate financial ramifications. Anyway…Enough of my pontificating…Some will bill it that way.

  54. Leebob wrote:

    #50 nonsgfan….WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, and did I mention….WRONG!
    Take a deep breath, gather your thoughts and back off the venom toward SG. You are probably a fairl intelligent individual who should be capable of coming up with a more sound argument than spewing “hatred?” Hating anything gospel, regardless of the genre, would not be the direction to go. Maybe this explains why some of the more “out there” music borderlines on being violent. It comes from the hatred crowd.

    We went to a church a couple of years back. The youth were toward the fron slouching around. By the end of the day they were clapping and actually had a smile on their face. They enjoyed the energy, the fact we did not ignore them, and even some told their parents, who had to work, about us. The following summer we were scheduled to go back and the pastor had to reschedule because the youth were going to camp the day before and wanted to be there when we showed up. The pastor told me they were actually mad that he would schedule us while they were gone.

    99% is a fairly lofty number. BTW, did you know that 47.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

  55. quartet-man wrote:

    #47 “Holy cow?” I thought only Hindus believed that. ;)

  56. Jake wrote:

    #55 Quartet Man — I wonder how a “holy cow” would grill up. I guess they would be sacred hamburgers and religious steaks.

  57. Progressor wrote:

    #51 Leebob
    How can you say the CCM fans are the close minded ones? How many of them do you know personally? A lot of SG fans generalize that CCM concerts are just a bunch of loud guitars and kids jumping up and down. How would that not be called close minded? I can’t find any questionable lyrics in my CCM collection that I would be ashamed to play in church. CCM music is just as God pointed as SG music, it just takes a different route to the message, thus it reaches a different kind of person. SG arists are taking a cue from this. Look at all the CCM songs rerecorded by SG artists over the last 3 years….Ivan Parker, Talley Trio, Gold City, etc. So are those groups compromising the message of their albums/concerts by singing “shameful” CCM songs?

  58. Leebob wrote:

    Progressor, #44 “#30 Leebob, Another example of how I think our diversity is hurting the industry is the fact that a lot of my “CCM” loving friends won’t go to a southern gospel concert with me unless I let them preview the style of southern gospel first.” Those are your words not mine.

    It is your CCM friends who won’t go without a preview. That is narrow minded. It is my tongue in cheek way of nailing the CCM crowd who think they have an “open mind” about music. Small and large churches alike will allow CCm into their church but a strictly CCM church will not allow SG. What are they afraid? I was blasted for years as I slowly implemented P&W into the services. What I knew that others did not at that time is if you force feed the older generation the P&W/CCM you begin to run them off and quite honestly I knew music ministers who didn’t the south end of a north bound rodent what the older generation thought. Calloused and tragic for many churches for our older saints who paid for the very building they are worshipping in.

  59. Progressor wrote:

    #58 Leebob
    At least my CCM friends will give it a listen. Most SG fans I know won’t even listen to a CCM CD, won’t even give it a try. At least my friends will listen first before they decide if they like it or not. Most SG fans see or hear “CCM” and they’re done. “Nope I only listen to SG.” My point with that comment originally was to show what SG’s blanket perception is with the “rest of the world.” Right or wrong that’s what it is. But to say CCM fans are more narrow minded when a SG fan cringes at the three little letters, CCM, is not an accurate statement.

  60. Progressor wrote:

    BTW, I won’t go to any concert unless I’ve heard something from them anyways.

  61. Jake wrote:

    It’s getting a little heated on this thread. CCM and SG are two different styles of music, appealing to two entirely different tastes. Both have a purpose. If it turns our focus onto the Lord, and is done for His glory, it is accomplishing what it is intended to do.
    I think we need to see the two styles as complementing each other, rather than competing with one another. It is two styles, two tastes, both of which appeal to certain segments of people both old and young. Rather than arguing about which is better, or which is more appealing, etc. we need to be thankful that there are these two avenues for worshipping God.
    And with that, I will also cease my pontification.

  62. Leebob wrote:

    Well said Jake. I am probably one of the rare ones on here that will not only listen to CCM but given the right words and tune, will probably even perform one. The one that bothered me the most was from the young person talking about HATING sg. I can handle alot of what is said on here but that was just blatant disrespect for every SG lover on here.

  63. Progressor wrote:

    Just one comment I have to make.

    CCM Magazine posts SG concerts on their website. Does any SG website post CCM concerts?

  64. Leebob wrote:

    I am impressed that CCM Magazine would do such a thing. I am not impressed with the way CCM and P&W churches have left out a couple of generations in their worship services for the most part.

  65. Jim2 wrote:

    CCM and Singing News are both owned by the same company, so it’s not that huge of a stretch

  66. apathetic wrote:

    Leebob,

    There is also something nostalgic about an old rotary phone, but I use a wireless or cell phone. Times marches on. Join it, or get trampled by it. I’m sure that King David had a different tune for his songs(psalms) than what Southern Gospel has for theirs, I don’t think we would find him whining about the new songs that are praising God. He would be worshipping to the sounds and melodies that are modern today. We must stop whining and do the same.

  67. Progressor wrote:

    CCM Magazine was doing this before they acquired Singing News.

  68. nonSGfan wrote:

    Southern Gospel as a whole has refused to progress with time, and make strides toward modernism in music. When I say young people “hate” southern gospel, I mean they hate the corny hand gestures, too-long held out endings, unprogressive music, redundant songs (heaven, getting through trials and troubles ect). Leebob, i’m not saying they “hate” the message, they “Hate” the unoriginality of it. And your little story about going to a church and a group of stinkin young people starting out slouching and ending up clapping is ridiculous. Anybody can get excited over ANY music for a moment in time. I’m talking about, “are young people going to go to the store, find Ernie Haas, talley trio, Ivan parker Ect. and say, THATS WHAT I WANT TO BUY”. Or are they going to go to Itunes and find a nifty Hoppers song to download to their IPOD. NOOOO.

    If the majority of young people dislike SG, it’s going to die. They DO dislike it as a whole, because it’s unprogressive. I don’t mean it has to ROCK OUT. I appreciate what the Crabbs, Austins Bridge, and others have begun to do because they’re going to pull some young people into the genre, but not enough to make it last. Within 15 years, you’ll see Singing News magazine sales begin to drop, you’ll see more and more groups launching out into business (Like Tony Gore selling Barbecue).

    ROD, I do like heated debate.

  69. Leebob wrote:

    Nonsgfan, Your attitude is not even worthy of comment anymore. You just called me a liar and you haven’t earned that right.

    So I give you another TRUE story about where people are with SG and why they may be there and then I will drop this subject because you cannot communicate with the thick skulled. Maybe the example won’t go above your head. About 4 years ago we were invited to take part in a community Thanksgiving service. We were the only outside group, everybody else that sang represented a church. EVERY song sung was from the SG genre. When we approached some of the people and thanked them for their song selection they had no idea that their songs were played on SG stations, they just liked the music and words and begged us not to call it SG. When I asked them why, it was apparent their problem with SG was more from perception and not the music. I have gone to churches where they were going to have some of their people sing prior and inevitably, even the young people, will pull out a sg tune.

  70. Rhonda wrote:

    Rod,
    I haven’t been on here in a few days so I haven’t known that you called me a liar.
    Do I like EHSSQ? Only a little. I am familiar with one dvd/cd and that is it.
    To quote Leebob, you have no right to call me a liar. The throwing out of that kind of talk does not further the subject at all.
    The story I told was true, and yes my kids like SG (old and new if you want to call it that) but they also like Skillet, Avalon, and so many of the other styles of Christian music that no one can say that we influenced them. They also like country, pop, and rock. My 17 year old niece likes Crazy Horses by the Osmonds and some of their other stuff. She is the one who likes Skillet. My 25 year old likes Kirk Franklin too.
    While there may be some people who like what their parents like, my kids aren’t like that, and neither are their friends. We didn’t raise our kids to be clones of us. They are diversified in their musical choices because of the “GASP” music and our willingness to allow them their own minds and choices And if it is junk they say so. When it is SG junk they say so. Their friends are the same way.
    So maybe the question is why do we have labels? Both of Leebob’s stories are true. I was there for both. I was also there the night 3 thirteen year old girls acted like 13 year old girls do when they see a singer they like. Yes, even in Christian music.
    By the way, Rod, I was born on July 4 in Independence, MO and was raised there. I didn’t come to the “South” until I was an adult, so my views and perceptions are not strictly southern. Where I choose to live isn’t the issue, I notice that alot of the top tier groups appear all over the country, not just the South and they even go to Canada. Are these transplants from the South, or are they people who recognize quality Christian music when they hear it? Your insinuation that I am dumb enough to just believe the line because I live in the south is an even bigger insult than calling me a liar. I will brag here-my intelligence level is far beyond the stereotype you are giving.
    If this thread is going to continue, why not get back to the topic at hand, or better yet, redefine it.
    The question should really be why people think SG is dying when all over the country there are people who attend SG concerts, people who sing SG whether they admit it or not, and there are places where people don’t like it. Why not leave it at that?
    As for the question about who is more close-minded, CCM or SG, why is it that SG parents are willing to let their children explore other genres-Christian and secular-and (from what I have read here) CCM parents refuse to acknowledge that there are other genres of music? Maybe if we stop labeling the music just like society labels our children, they may find they like a variety.
    But then who cares? No one is going to change their mind from their position anyway.

  71. not beavis wrote:

    CCM is fresh, relevant and “is”
    SG is tired, dated and “was”

  72. NonsgFan wrote:

    Leebob, as you tell me my attitude isn’t worth commenting, you devote a whole comment to it. Okay, i didn’t want to do this, but i’m going to for the burden of proof.

    I’ve traveled all across the country speaking at youth events both great and small. I’ve been in youth ministry for the past 7 years, and have studied from some of the most noted youth leaders of our day. I’ve been personally involved in the lives of HUNDREDS even thousands of young people.
    THEY DONT LIKE IT. Now, What do I mean when i say “it”. Do I mean ALL of it? Absolutely not. Young people can appreciate anything thats quality. BUT AS A WHOLE, young people don’t associate with SG because it has progessively fallen of the radar of QUALITY and impact.

    NOW, take this comparison. Take a song that has a modernistic approach, for example, The Gaither Vocal Band song “Picture Of Grace”. Compare that to that song by the talley’s, “Red stinking leter Day”. (one of the worse songs of this century). One has quality and progessive writing, the other is a ploy for radio plays and appeal to Gen-xers and baby boomers.
    BUT THEN, take Lauren Talley’s song “Almighty”. A song that would appeal to young people greatly. But NOT ENOUGH to get them to “PURCHASE THE PRODUCT”.
    It is not favoring, clapping, or liking the music for a season in time that will make the market frugile, it is the PURCHASING and investing in the product that will ensure it’s future.

    Young people may get into a FEW SG songs, but not enough to buy the CD. That is my point. Let me generalize this book..

    1. Young people do not LIKE SG enough to purchase it, invest in it, and make it a future market in their lives like the Gen-x, and baby boomers have. SINCE they do not like it (as a whole, there are exceptions), it will progressively fall off the radar unless drastic measures are taken.

  73. NonSGfan wrote:

    Also Leebob, where was this event located? also, I didn’t say it didn’t happen, i’m saying it’s a lame story to get the point across. There may be 10’s of thousands of young people that like SG Music, but their are MILLIONS who don’t.

  74. Not Beavis wrote:

    Typical teenage male will be drawn to which one?
    http://www.mckameysonline.com/
    http://www.visitmusiccity.com/

  75. Rhonda wrote:

    Don’t count on Leebob responding to your remarks but I will say only one thing about what you keep reiterating.
    I thank God you aren’t involved in any of the youth ministries my children have been involved in, your narrowmindedness is so evident.
    Why do we have denominations and not just one church? Because people see things differently and enjoy different things.
    How interesting that you have come on here and called us liars and told us how we are all deluded and should accept the reality in the face of what we have personally witnessed. I have no doubt you have seen and felt what you have said, because that is the circles you run in. Your self-stated extensive experience does not mean you speak for all and the fact is you have probably not touched the majority of Christian youth in this country and definitely not the majority of youth period.
    So, sir, feel free to feel how you do and to believe what you want to believe. We have only stated what we have seen, we have stated a message of hope, you came in here with a message to tear down something we believe in and love. While we love our music, we aren’t blind to it’s faults that is why we like this blog. That does not give you the right to use the hateful rhetoric (you don’t want to know what rhetoric really means) to tear us down.
    God bless you, regardless of where you believe the truth to lie because the fact is you only have a slice of life view, just as we do.

  76. Leebob wrote:

    In other words, turn SG into CCM and it still ceases to exist.

    You operate in the monetary not in the spirit. You have made that abundantly clear. It is all about who buys and purchases, nothing about whether it ministers or not.

    After much prayer and frustrating deliberation with a couple of knuckleheads I have come to the conclusion that God is the One who will make the determining factor as to whether something exists or not. Not nonSGfan, Rod, not beavis, Leebob, or any of the rest of us. Plain and simple we still have an audience and I am not too concerned with the opinions of “trolls” on the internet. I am far more interested in truly ministering to a congregation than I am selling another cd, filling my own fancies because it is what I want to do, or anything else. I follow God and His leading as much as I possibly can and let Him deal with the rest. I live in the moment when kids DO enjoy SG, even if it is for a moment, and then they go home and tell their parents, who were working, about the group they missed. The doom and gloom crowd want it to go away because they cannot handle the simplicity of it and are way more about following a program than the Spirit of the Living God. I believe God chooses the simple things of the world to confound the wisest of us. That means He will use SG, CCM, P&W, and even (I can’t believe I am saying this) Christian Rap to reach people. When everything is all said and done, if His Spirit isn’t in it, then it will not draw anyone to Him.

  77. apathetic wrote:

    Just because there are people still singing Southern Gospel in church services here and there or people attending concerts or buying a few CD’s doesn’t mean it is a healthy genre. Fact is, no matter how much denial goes on here, it IS a dying genre. Look at your SG radio. In the 80’s SG had thousands of radio stations, hundreds of FM stations across the country. Today, you are lucky if there are hundreds of AM stations playing SG for a few hours a day. Recording (CD/Tapes) sales on a national level have fallen by scores since the 80’s, while other genres have grown since the 80’s. Compare ticket sales for a Gaither Tour to that of Winterjam Tours. No comparison on a revenue level. Winterjam sells out 20,000 plus arena’s. SG is not dead yet, but it is well on it’s way.

    NonSGFan is right in many ways. Anyone who works in Youth ministry on a national level will tell you that youth do not relate to SG on a national level. There may be certain demographics in the country that will tolerate it, but as a whole it is not tolerated on a national level. Ask the prominant youth speakers of today, go to one of their events. You do not hear the McKamey’s, Gold City or even the “Youth Appealing” EHSS playing. You hear CCM music. Why? That is what is relevant to most of the country. Again, there may be a few southern city’s or small midwestern county fairs where a 13 year old girl screams for an octagenarian like she has just seen Carrie Underwood, but that is simply because she has been raised to think that someone in SG is actually “famous”. Someone could tell her that some Joe Schmoe on the corner is the famous John Lennon and she would scream just the same, thinking she was seeing someone “famous”. All the while, having no idea who John Lennon was, never hearing his music, not knowing a thing about him or realizing he has been dead for years.

  78. brad wrote:

    having grown up on heavy metal music i fell in love with ccm music 15 years ago.I still listen to Stryper and like new bands like Hawk Nelson.i served several years as a youth pastor and for the last eight have been a pastor but i love SG music.I like P&W music as well.My main concern is this the younger generation not being exposed to the songs of the faith(hymns).Is the only reason we listen to CCM is the beat nd the guitars w/ distortion or would u say the majority is listening to the message.ive listened to all of it and enjoyed it.My son who is 13 loves CCM but sings SG music has a great voice.He loves both.Now he doesnt listen to the Chuck Wagon gang.He knows as much about CCM and SG as most adults do.Ive listen to CCM lately and find it hard to find a real message in alot of it. i would say SG isnt that way.I applaud the small % of kids who like this kind of music. I was at GoldCitys homecoming this past week and were a lot of kids there.But theyre was not 20,000 but they dont charge like CCM groups.Most churches cant afford CCm groups when many are in the 12-20k .their not nearly as approachable as SG artist.Id rather my kid lookup to Jay Parrack,Jonathan Wilburn,or Steve Ladd anyday.I hope SG does survive but would agree its in a decline.

  79. NonSGfan wrote:

    Rhonda, It shows how little you pay attention to what you read. I never said the stories weren’t “TRUE”, i said they were bad stories to try to make a point, so nobody was called a “Liar” by me. It is NOT narrow minded to speak factually. ALSO, God has used me to touch the lives of COUNTLESS young people, IN FACT, maybe even YOUR CHILDREN have heard me speak. Before you say something like “I’m glad my children aren’t involved in what you do” or whatever, remember it may be me that touches your child’s life in a time of great heartache, addiction, perile, or depression. I’ve helped young people that parents couldn’t help. CAREFUL how you speak of a minister. You very well may fall under a curse from the divine. Leebob, I am speaking from a business standpoint, not minsterial. If you wan’t to speak ministerial thats a whole new ball game. SG mostly reaches OUT, while CCM has tried to concentrate on that which reaches UP. Two forms of ministry in the old testament, that which intended to minster to the needs of people (shew bread, laver) and that which served GOD in worship (incense). SG, the majority of the time reaches OUT, not up. NOW LETS GET DOWN AND DIRTY, with a big surprise.

    I would rather ALL kids listen to SG music and NOT ccm. CCM has become sensual, and too much like the world in appearence, sound, and motive. BET THAT SURPRISED YA, HUH??

    I am NOT a CCM fan, and now lets discover why my name is “NonSGfan”. It is not because I do not like southern gospel music. It is because I have seen what the industry has become. WHEN is the last time you went to a SG concert and saw a heartfelt alter call for sinners? WHEN is the last time you actually saw a southern gospel group take to talk to people like they’re not a potential giver to their cause. before you say, “You’ve not seen all groups”…or “you’re judging all groups from one”….. I WORKED AS A SOUTHERN GOSPEL DJ FOR 5 YEARS. I hosted dozens of events and met EVERY SINGLE southern gospel artist alive on this planet. (exageration). The industry is crumbling on a business side because of their lack of progression, but on a MINISTERIAL side it is because ICHABOD has reared his ugly head. The ANOINTING is what breaks the yokes of bondages, sets man free. The anointing is so NON present in these concerts it’s sick. I could tell you a STORY OR TWO about many many many groups, but there is no point.

    MY POINT-On the business side it’s fading because of lack of progression.

    MY POINT- On the spiritual side, the anointing has left the building.

    Rhonda you said i’m using my “Self stated experience”…which is the EXACT same thing YOU did to prove YOUR point, Right?

    AND YES, you’re wrong, I have seen the youth on a nation scale, like i said. I’m not going to waiste my time proving it, though I could, because that would release my anonyminity which I enjoy thoroughly.

  80. Leebob wrote:

    NonSGfan or SGfanindenial,

    Deep down I thought we were pretty close to the same page but could not tell it because the attitude that comes across while making your point. “stinkin” kids and whatnot doesn’t translate too well for me as we work extremely hard to reach as much of the congregation as possible when we sing. As a minister I am sure you can appreciate the difficulty of this task. Too hip for the old folks too square for the young.

    When it comes to ministry, there are some national groups that are very ministry oriented. Booth Brothers and Poet Voices (when they are active) come to mind. While speaking with some of these men some have told me that they prefer the intimacy of a church setting because it allows for more ministry opportunities. However, they still have bills and must accept the larger venues to meet those obligations to take care of their families. With that said, I have been to a number of concerts where I enjoyed the entertainment but came away with nothing spiritually. I have also been to nearly as many concerts where I was equally entertained (held my attention) and the Spirit was present in a very clear way.

    I have maintained on numerous posts to this site and others that the issue with SG isn’t the money, it is the fact that, for the most part, SG singers have forgotten why they started singing in the first place, to minister. I believe whole heartedly that if our music is from the heart of God it will last and the financials will take care of themselves. If our motives are not what they should be then yes, we will falter.

    One of the things that I have found on Avery is that most of us are concerned with similar things and, in the end, when we have communicated what we really think we are closer than we realize. I leave our website attached to my name for the simple purpose of communication to those who may have questions. I have been contacted on MANY occassions about things that people have both agreed and disagreed with. Through this site I have gained many friendships with people that I may never see this side of heaven but I value every one of them and save their info to my personal email. I hope NONSGFAN that you will one day come out of annonymity long enough to email me and I bet we can find common ground as well. BTW - your annonymity will always be safe with me if you choose to talk.

  81. NonSGfan wrote:

    words like “stinking” Ect. are nothing more than ploys for reaction. Makes things interesting. That’s what makes open thread convo’s exciting and intense. Everybody should always come into these settings with their feelings as far away from their sleeve as possible, understanding that 90% of people who comment, comments FOR the purpose of reaction.

    I like SG, but not what it’s become.

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