Heaven’s getting crowded

From the New York Times this morning:

Although a majority of Americans say religion is very important to them, nearly three-quarters of them say they believe that many faiths besides their own can lead to salvation[.]

The full study is here. Apropos our discussion about the difference between southern gospel and other forms of Christian music, I’d wager that sg is home to a disproportionately large number of the 25% who don’t believe other faiths or belief traditions can lead to heaven.

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Comments

  1. JM wrote:

    Like many of the posters to this site, I was raised in a conservative, bible-believing, evangelical family. As a young person, I came to embrace Christ as my personal Savior. Some of my earliest memories recall Sunday sermons that reflected the singular truth that there is only ONE way to salvation and that way is by accepting the shed blood of Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for our sins and our sinful nature. No other way!

    As time went by and I grew older, I tried to “soften” the hard edges of some of those sermons from my childhood. You see, I had friends and relatives who were good people and did the right things and surely a kind and loving God wouldn’t turn them away.

    But, the same book that tells me about the kind and loving nature of God, also tells me about the righteous judgement of God. He loved us enough to give his very best; he requires, in return, that we accept his gift and pledge our lives to his service.

    God’s Word is true and sometimes hard and it cuts like a two-edged sword. You don’t “sneak” into heaven; you either go in covered by the blood of Jesus or you don’t go in! This is one of the hardest teachings in God’s Word, but it stands true. I remember hearing an evangelist declaring that Heaven would not be a crowded place. That was about 50 years ago and today, I’m afraid it still has more than enough room.

    Good works, kind acts, religiousity and good morals won’t suffice. There remains only one way and that is through the blood of Jesus Christ. My belief or lack thereof will never change the reality of a singular salvation experience through faith in Christ. Oh…with apologies to the New York Times!

  2. quartet-man wrote:

    Great post JM. I guess I don’t so much have to post here now. :)

  3. sockpuppet wrote:

    As William Young states in the fiction book “The Shack” that is causing quite the uproar in Christian circles -
    “Who said anything about being a Christian? I’m not a Christian. Those who love me come from every system that exists. They were Buddhists or Mormons, Baptist or Muslims, Democrats, Republicans and many who don’t vote or are not part of any Sunday morning religious institutions. I have followers who were murderers and many who were self-righteous. Some are bankers and bookies, Americans and Iraqis, Jews and Palestinians. I have no desire to make them Christian, but I do want to join them in their transformation into sons and daughters of my Papa, into my brothers and sisters, into my Beloved.

    Does that mean, asked Mack, that all roads will lead to you?

    Not at all, smiled Jesus…Most roads don’t lead anywhere. What it does mean is that I will travel any road to find you.”

    And this is a book that will find it’s way into many churches and “small groups” this fall - google Wayne Jacobsen Shack heresy and see what you find

  4. Videoguy wrote:

    The great and powerful Oprah disagrees with you, JM.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=pwGLNbiw1gk

  5. Joe wrote:

    JW- yet another fantastic post. You succinctly summed up the gospel of Christ in a Biblically-accurate way.

    Your experience parallels that of mine. As I read your post, the words of a song the Perrys recorded on their “This is the Day” CD ran through my head, and my soul.

    “I’m saved! I’m saved! Redeemed and set free;
    No longer a poor sinner lost:
    For between my soul and the flames of hell,
    Stands the blood of an old rugged cross.”

    What a thrill and a peace, to know our Savior is THE Way.

    Thanks.

  6. Alan wrote:

    Amen, JM. A marvelous post. Nothing else really needs to be added. It all comes down to faith and the word of God, doesn’t it? To me it can’t be any clearer than the words of Christ in John 14:6…”I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” If we believe the Bible to be true, this verse (among so many others) says it all. So, count me in as part of that 25%. How sad, if that’s an accurate number…anyone want to guess what the percentage would have been had that same question been asked maybe 30 years ago?

  7. Practical Fellow wrote:

    I’m curious to know Doug’s opinion about this. Do you think other faiths provide a way to eternal life with God? Your post left me feeling you weren’t saying everything.

  8. JM wrote:

    #4 - Videoguy / Thank you for reminding me of the vast wasteland that is reflected in this Oprah clip! I think we have to accept the fact that the most insideous and harmful theology in today’s world is not some cult or eastern religion. Rather it is the American born and bred theology of Divine Goodness. There is so much falsehood, anger, destruction and vulgarity in today’s world that, in a reflex action, we run toward ANYTHING that seems to be good or cheerful or positive. We elect politicians to office because “they’re not as corrupt as the other candidate.” We watch televisions sitcoms which “aren’t as dirty as some of the others.” We even attend churches because “the pastor uses the Bible when he preaches…sometimes.” Our sensitivities and intellect have been so compromised by the crude and crass and hateful nature of the world that we readily embrace someone like Oprah, who seems to really CARE about people. After all, she gives away cars and houses and whatever else. She HAS to be right and right-minded. And then, we hear her suggest that there are multiple ways to God. You know…I really wish there was a essay test to get into Heaven and that God was an “easy grader” and that he graded on a curve. But, no amount of wishing on my part will ever see one good person get into Heaven…save that they are covered by the redemptive blood of Jesus Christ. But rather than mourning for all the good people that may spend an eternity seperated from the love of God, we should accept the challenge of continuing to reflect Christ to all the good people we meet. One of the saddest passages in Scripture is when Agrippa says to the Apostle Paul, “ALMOST thou persuadest me to be a Christian.” Pray for “good people,” so that they may become God’s people!

  9. j-mo wrote:

    sockpuppet…what’s youre point? I’m not sure I understand which side of the argument you are on?

    Your tone suggests that you disagree with the passage from the book, but I’m confused at what you find to disagree with.

  10. Leebob wrote:

    Alan, it was around the 55-60% level because I remember as a 16 year old a youth evangelist giving us the “staggering” numbers along with a prediction that in 25 years it would be cut in half.

    I am not one of those that believes only Baptists goes to heaven. I do believe that it is Christ alone that will allow us to enter heaven and whether it be Baptist, Catholic, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, Methodist, or whomever, if you are totally depending on Christ and His work at Calvary you are in.

    Sorry Oprah but ANYTHING + Christ = works for salvation. Those belief systems that hold to baptism as a requirement for salvation are works based and thus busting the door to hell wide open. Talk about your fire-water.

    The problem with Oprah and the 75% is they do not have an appropriate view of the living God. They have created a false god based upon what they hope he is up to thus making them guilty of idolatry. I once mentioned that we had an “anti-Oprah” hat at our product table in a conservative Baptist church. It simply says “One Way to Heaven.” Sad to say there were a couple of misguided ladies that were very displeased with me. Man’s ways are not God’s ways, neither is man’s thinking, God’s thinking. I have grown weary of Christians playing softball with fundamentals of our faith simply because a popular cult-figure has deemed something as truth.

  11. JW wrote:

    Whoa, Joe #5.

    While I’d like to take credit, that’s another “judgemental” Christian, JM, not me, JW.

    I must be a prophet! In my judgemental posts I was mentioning Oprah and here this appears the next day.

    Now, don’t any of you give Christians a bad name and judge Oprah. Let’s just love, love, love.

  12. Joe wrote:

    Sorry, JW- I realized my mistake after I posted; you and JM sounded so much alike and on target, I mistook you for each other. Not a bad thing after all- both of you have your heads screwed on pretty straight theologically…

    And you, Leebob; you just nailed it, sir. The way you just ended your above post…

    “Man’s ways are not God’s ways, neither is man’s thinking, God’s thinking. I have grown weary of Christians playing softball with fundamentals of our faith simply because a popular cult-figure has deemed something as truth.”

    …is one of the most accurate statements I have ever read here. What Oprah is espousing is damnably attractive, and no doubt, will attract many, who think it is the truth.

    Satan is never more dangerous than when he has a Bible in his hands, once stated CH Spurgeon…

  13. sockpuppet wrote:

    #9 j-mo,
    You’re right, that was a pretty unclear posting on my part. The truth is, I am conflicted about the book.
    I read the book as an “assignment” from my daughter-in-law and was very mindful of her concerns, but as a FICTION book, I enjoyed it very much. As part of my “report” to her, I recommended she read Tim Challies review on Amazon (1 star) as he masterfully addressed the concerns I had. Fuller review here: http://www.challies.com/media/The_Shack.pdf
    All that to say I thoroughly enjoyed the book - it will give great insight into God’s character and is a powerful message about bitterness and forgiveness.
    The caveat though, is that Oprah or any other universalist could also read the book and have no qualms about wholeheartedly recommending it. A measure of spiritual maturity and discernment is needed before jumping into the book, so I also see the danger in just willynilly passing it out to friends and relatives.

  14. Harry Peters wrote:

    Hmmm…Where to start? Perhaps with it’s not OUR place to decide who gets to go to heaven and who doesn’t. It’s God’s choice. Second, for all of you home-spun theologians, I’d like a clarification of this scripture (words of Christ, in red). Luke 13:19. The kingdom of heaven is “like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.” For anyone who is a thinking person, it does not imply that ONLY Baptist birds will lodge in it. What if you get to heaven and have a Muslim brother whose “mansion” is next door to yours? Don’t get me wrong, Jesus IS my way of salvation and he said, “whoever comes to me, I will in no wise cast out.”

    Problem with some “thinking” (dogma) is that the “holy” people think that everyone has to have an earth shattering, get down on the “altar” and slobber and PLEAD for God to save them and it is a high drama experience. Paul was “saved” in this way. But what about Timothy? He grew up in the temple and his conversion appears to have been more of an evolutionary process.

    Point is….I’m not smart enough, nor am I presumptious enough to think that I know what God thinks; neither can I speak for God. Maybe you should step down from your thrones of judgement and realize that we are all nothing but sinners, saved by grace. If God is willing to let people from other faiths into His kingdom, it is His business and I won’t question it. I guess it makes it easy for all of you who have all the answers packaged in a nice, neat box. Smells like smoke from the pit of hell to me!

  15. wackythinker wrote:

    Harry — You’re right. We cannot presume to know what God thinks. We can, however, know a few things he said.

    For example, His Only begotten Son said, “no one comes to the Father but by me.” And to paraphrase Rodney Griffin, He
    “means just what [He] said.”

    So, according to Jesus, a muslim man can make it into the Kingdom of Heaven, but only if he (as Jesus said) is born again.

    Which leads me to a digression on people trying to differentiate between “Christians” and “Born Again Christians”. Now, if the deliniation is evangelical vs non-evangelical, I’ll buy that. But doesn’t Jesus indicate you’re not one of His unless you’re born again?

    You’re right, Harry. There are many paths to Jesus. But He is the only path to the one true living God.

    “There’s a way that seems right to a man, but in the end will be destruction.”

  16. Alan wrote:

    Harry - “…all the answers packaged in a nice neat box.” ?! I just reread every post here, and I haven’t found one that even hinted at being judgmental or dogmatic as regards personal opinion. We all actually do have the answers, if one believes that the Bible is true and the Word of God. In a society growing ever more dim from the inevitable failure of moral relevancy, I find real and great comfort in the simple but emphatic and eternal truths stated by Jesus Himself, and echoed repeatedly by His disciples. “Smells like smoke from the pit of hell to me.” What does? The Scriptures some of us have quoted? Sheesh. Nah, Harry. Thank God all that we smell these days is the fragrance of a Savior Who loved us enough to die for us. I still wait in vain for anyone to answer me why, if there are supposedly many ways to salvation, the Lord Jesus had to die? If good works, church membership, or anything else you might wish to add, was all that was necessary, then why, again, did Christ have to die?

  17. Leebob wrote:

    Harry, most of the people here are not homespun theologians. I have spent the better part of 25 years coming to grips with the fact that Baptist have not cornered the market on truth. We are not talking about the difference in carpet color, worship styles, hair length, etc., we are talking about THE way of salvation. That is to not be compromised. If a muslim is next door to me in heaven it will only be because he came to the realization that there is a God in heaven who loved him enough to send His Son to die for him. That is what is written in the Word of God.

    I will give people things when it is not written in black and white (or red and white) and allow them the grace to follow God as they see fit, whether I agree or not. I will NOT however compromise a fundamental doctrine of the scripture, especially when it comes to the salvation of the lost. God had a plan from the beginning of time and now even His children are wanting to compromise that plan. So I suppose now we serve a God who doesn’t have a clue what He is doing? I think not. There is a Savior and His name is Jesus, not Allah, Buddha, Confuscious, or any other name you want to put on the door.

  18. Rhonda wrote:

    Harry,
    I have read two of your posts from today and get the feeling you are full of anger about something.
    Many people put their emails and such on here so they can be contacted separately from here. May I suggest that if you are this angry you contact that person directly on an adult level so that the discussion here can proceed with the topic.
    In the meantime I will pray for you.

  19. Joe wrote:

    Harry-

    Don’t mean to gang up on you, my friend- as wackythinker, Leebob and Alan have all swiftly run to the only bedrock of sanity and security they can, and that is the Word of God. They live it, breathe it, and believe it. It is our only frame of reference.

    If you really want an explanation of Luke 13:19, provide me your email address, and I’ll respond privately.

    The point made by wackythinker about the difference between someone claiming to be a Christian, and a “born-again Christian” (actually, a Scriptural redundancy, as Scripture allows that everyone truly a Christian IS born-again…) is most important in today’s world.

    No wonder Jesus prophesied that one day, from behind a firmly and eternally closed door, He will banish from entering His Heaven those who called and claimed Him as Lord, taught and did wonders in His Name, but never knew Him as Savior. Even sadder, He states that He never knew them.

    The Lord knows them that are His.

    The Imperials are loudly singing in my head just now. The words are unforgettable. Not as good as my brothers quoting the Scriptures they have quoted, but some good words nonetheless…

    “Oh you might be a Baptist, and not be born again;
    A Presbyterian or a Methodist, and still die in your sin;
    You can even be a charismatic; shout and dance, and jump a pew-
    But if you hate your brother, you won’t be one of the chosen few.

    No it won’t be old Buddha that’s sittin’ on the throne-
    And it won’t be old Mohammed, that’s calling us home;
    And it won’t be Hare Krishna that plays that trumpet tune-
    ‘Cause we’re going to see the Son- not Reverend Moon!”

    Amen.

  20. sockpuppet wrote:

    I know that I keep referencing things off of this website, but if you want to find out how ridiculous it is for a Christian to refer to a Muslim as a “brother” - head over to youtube and listen to Ergun Caner’s testimony. The man knows what he is talking about.
    As much as some people would like you to think otherwise, the simple truth is that the God of the Bible is not the same being as Allah. We know that God is love, but in the 90 some descriptions of Allah in the Quran, never is he described as “love”, “loving” etc.
    As Casey Stengel said “you could look it up”

  21. cynical one wrote:

    sockpuppet — You’re right. Even though many politicians, media-types and others would have us believe otherwise, Muslim clerics will tell you Jehovah and Allah are not the same entity.

    Anyone who tries to tell us otherwise is apparently incorrect.

    We don’t ALL ’serve the same god’.

  22. Blake Edmondson wrote:

    #14. I know a ton of folks have already responed to your post but I felt I need to respond as well. The greatest lie “from the pits of Hell” that has come in these last days is that there are many ways to Heaven. We as the church have allowed the true message of Christ to be so watered down that it has eventually led to this. The ideals of “decisionism” in our churches have convinced so many lost folks that they are saved, that it has naturally led to “why can’t everyone who lives a good life and believes in God be saved?” What we need in our churches today is pastors and leaders who will get back to preaching the old way of conviction and holiness and sanctification. You can’t just decide to be saved and all be well. You have to actually get saved by the regenerating power of the blood of Christ. That is the only way. I like the old #66 from the Church Hymnal that we sing in my old-time baptist church “Just one Way to the Pearly Gate” says

    Others risk their souls
    On some newmade way
    Thinking they will come
    to the gate someday
    But they might find out,
    ere their lives are done
    That the old cross road
    is the only one
    THERE IS JUST ONE WAY TO THE PEARLY GATE…
    Read again John 14:6

  23. JW wrote:

    Amen, sockpuppet, #20.

    I was having a great laugh thinking anyone could possibly think a muslim is a brother to a Christian.

    I might be a “homespun theologian”, but anyone with a tiny bit of knowledge of Islam knows how laughable that is.

    Don’t believe me? Try telling a muslim you and he are going to Heaven together and see HIS response! Oh, and don’t ask that in a muslim country unless you really are ready to find out that minute.

  24. Harry Peters wrote:

    You folks present the gospel in such a way that most of the people you reach are trying to recover from the presentation.

    Now, I’m quite sorry that I stirred so many of you up about a Muslim brother. However, your responses clearly point to your bigotry.

    The point I am trying to make is this. Each person’s relationship with God is a one on one, personal relationship.

    Remember, God can change his/her mind about things. As one example, take the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Should God choose to change his/her mind and accept Muslims into heaven, it’s God’s choice to make.

    After it is all said and done, I believe that God will allow some of you bigots into heaven. None of us are perfect, you know. It’s only by God’s grace and mercy that we stand a chance. If God wants to extend his/her grace and mercy to someone who was brought up in a different religion it’s perfectly okay with me. I get the feeling though that some of you would want to ask for a different mansion if you had one next door to a Muslim…but then I’m willing to be that here on earth you don’t have any Muslim neighbors or probably no black neighbors, for that matter.

    I don’t believe God is sitting in heaven with a check list saying okay….that guy down on earth got the “confess with thy mouth” part…and…got the “believe” part…but OOPS…missed the “in thy heart” part…so…goodie-goodie….I get to send that person to hell because they messed up part of the “magic prayer.”

    I believe in a God that created and sustains the universe. I believe that God is love. I believe that God created people of all races and creeds and does not wish for any of them to go to hell. Since the God that I know is so gracious and has so much mercy, it is conceivable to me that he/she might allow someone in the heart of a jungle somewhere into heaven–even though they never heard of the Gospel or of Jesus and did not repeat the “magic prayer” Oh…I’ll give you that “if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” But Jesus said, anyone who comes to him, he will not send away.

    Thanks be to God that he/she is more tolerant, merciful, loving, kind, non-prejudiced than anyone on this site. Some of you seem to really feel good about knowing the mind of God and doing the judging for him/her. News Flash: God will take care of it. He/she doesn’t need you to do a thing. What you COULD do is be kind and love EVERYONE…white, black, jewish, polish, Muslim, Budist alike. I don’t mean…just say you love them. I mean LOVE them….like your own flesh and blood brother or sister, mother or father. People would be drawn to Jesus more from this than presenting the Gospel in such a negative way…(You’re a low down rotten sinner headed for hell)…It’s no wonder that so many people have heard the Gospel (which means “GOOD NEWS”) and are trying to recover from it.

  25. Leebob wrote:

    Entrance into heaven = what have you done with Jesus…..PERIOD! Muslim, Baptist, Catholic, Church of Christ, thief on the cross, etc. How is this bigotry?

    There is no bigotry in that statement. Nothing but truth from the Word. yes God is a God of Love but He is also a God of holiness. One without the other is a false presentation of God.

  26. Fezzik wrote:

    Harry,
    Could you please explain to me why Jesus came to earth?

  27. For all the doubters wrote:

    For “Harry Peters” — and anyone else who wonders whether or not Jesus can make himself real to Muslims — take a look at this DVD (which can be ordered from your local Christian bookstore).

    The autobiographical stories are beautifully filmed on several continents and are told in the original languages of Farsi, Arabic, Turkish, etc. with English subtitles.

    God is reaching one person, one heart at a time — in such amazing ways!

    http://www.morethandreams.org/

  28. JM wrote:

    #24 - Mr. Peters - Your position is incorrect on two major counts: 1) God will NEVER do anything that is contrary to his spoken word. There is nothing in his word that speaks of multiple or alterative ways to God. If this were so, it would demonstrate that God is imperfect and suffering from a memory lapse. God is good and loving and PERFECT. 2) Over the last fifty years or so, I have watched main stream Protestant churches engage in a race to “water down” the gospel and make it more acceptable to the masses. Where has it gotten them? Dramatic decreases in attendance and membership, little to no moral influence in our society and country and a number of denominations on the verge of fracture over homosexuality has been their reward.

    Truth is Truth and God’s word is Truth. It’s hard and it cuts and shows mankind their imperfection, as reflected in the blood stained cross of Calvary. Perhaps you are simply bored on a Wednesday in July and are looking to stir up our posters. But, should you be serious, let me state with a firmness and spirit of love, that without accepting the finished work of Christ in exchange for our sins, no one, NO ONE (all races, colors and creeds included) wil see God. Not my opinion; it’s HIS opinion. You have a good rest of your Wednesday and God bless!

  29. Joe wrote:

    Mr. Peters-

    There is one simple way that I and others here KNOW that you are dead wrong.

    What you are saying totally contradicts the Word of the living God, whose HOME is Heaven.

    Wanna know who will be in Heaven? Surprisingly, the Bible tells us so.

    Please read Rev. 21, the last few verses. There, you have 2 blunt, distinct, no-controversy answers as to who will be there.

    v. 24- “…them that are saved…”
    v. 27- “…they that are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

    Period. End of discussion.

    ALL saved, and written in the Lamb’s book of life, will have been saved and forgiven, only through faith in the blood of that same Lamb.

    THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.

  30. wackythinker wrote:

    Mr Peters, you contradicted yourself. You say that God could choose to allow a Muslim into Heaven, but you later remind us that Jesus is the only way.

    Now, if you’re saying a Muslim, Hindu, Buddist, et al, can accept Christ, and therefore make it into Heaven, I would agree wholeheartedly. I imagine most everyone else who reads/posts here would agree with that. Once they accept Christ, though, they really are no longer a Muslim, Buddist, or whatever. As Paul said, in Christ, we’re new creatures. The old has passed away.

    About Sodom & Gamorrah, I’m not so sure God changed His mind. I think he allowed Lot some leeway, so He could prove His point. If I remember the story correctly, he didn’t spare the city, He only postponed the inevitable.

    God’s Word says He doesn’t change, so He does not change His mind. Maybe we (as humans) misunderstand what He is saying. For example, sometimes we think we hear Him say “no”, but what He really means is “not yet”. Then, when we finally hear a “yes”, it may seem like He’s changed His mind. Sometimes He just has to wait for US to change.

    And maybe that was the point with Lot. Lot had to change, and accept that the place he was in was evil. Maybe God just needed to prove that point.

    Now, some of what we learn from God’s Word is assumption and drawing our own conclusions. The Bible doesn’t always flat out tell us what the moral of the story is. That’s why we listen to good Bible teachers and preachers. And why we read Bible study books. And that may be why there are often differing opinions on Biblical meaning. Or why there are divisions within the body.

    Also, depending on where a person is within his/her own life, we can read a passage one time, and get one message out of it. Then read the same passage some time later, and get something totally different. Why does God to that? Why can’t we see it all the first time?

    Maybe it has to do with our finiteness vs His infiniteness.

    I do know this: He commanded us to love each other. He didn’t say “Love your neighbor, unless He’s Muslim.” Or unless she’s fat. Or unless he’s old. Or unless she’s prettier than you. Or unless he’s ugly. Or unless. . . . Well, you get the picture.

    Souls will not be won to the Kingdom without believers showing His love. And all that love entails.

  31. Wade wrote:

    Surprise…Surprise J & J and a few others are pounding on Harry. They are always right in their minds.

    Whomever said they were going to explain to Harry about the mustard seed story please do it here so we can all benefit from it.

    I hope there is a place in heaven for ppl in heaven like J & J & the like so they can all have their I AM RIGHT you are WRONG Parties.

    Some of you are so busy wanting to be right you do not even really read what Harry is trying to say. If you would stop parsing everything and READ the MESSAGE… YOU MIGHT GET IT !!! You guys always seem to want to END the discussion with YOUR HOT AIR!!! LoL

    Lastly, JM talks about how some try to water down the word to make it more acceptable to the masses and how THAT decreases dramatically influence… ahhh Joel Osteen!!!

    End of Discussion!!! LoL;-))) LMAO!!!

  32. Joe wrote:

    Wade-

    We all understand very clearly what Harry has been saying here. It seems as if it may be yourself who does not understand. Let me re-quote for you just one of his lines.

    “The point I am trying to make is this. Each person’s relationship with God is a one on one, personal relationship.”

    This is just one example of how he is dead wrong.

    The only relationship a sinful human can have with a Holy God is through the Mediator Christ Jesus. Not a word in the Bible of a “one-on-one” relationship.

    Even Job, in the oldest book in the Bible, cried out for a Mediator (Job 9:33).

    If Harry doesn’t have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, he doesn’t have a relationship with God (John 3:36, 1 John 2:1-2).

    Harry gives his own thoughts, to back up his own thoughts. Those who have written in opposition to his errant stance, have backed up their words with the Word of God.

  33. Harry Peters wrote:

    Joe, you show your ignorance in regard to the Holy Bible. Taking one verse to prove a point is called “proof texting” in a legitimate seminary and you can prove anything you want to prove from the Bible in this manner. You can find where Judas went out and hanged himself and another verse where Jesus said, “go ye and do likewise.”

    Second, I hate to break this to you, but
    Bible Scholars believe it was unlikely that Job was a real man. It was a classic story and similar ones are found in other religions to attempt to make sense of human suffering.

    Esther was most likely a comedic play for dinner entertainment.

    Harry Peters is not using his thoughts to back this up, this is what the studied, scholarly EXPERTS have to say. Your email did give my wife, Fonda a good laugh! Thank you for that. She needed it.

    For you fundies who think that every word of the Bible is “LITERALLY TRUE,” you have lost your minds. By definition, a parable cannot be “literally true.” I’ll bet the world wasn’t created in seven 24 hour days, either….which explains why evolution and creation by God through “intelligent design” can co-exist.

    It’s okay to be ignorant, just know more about the Bible than I do when you try to engage me in debate…and I’m not saying that I know ALL that much.

  34. Joe wrote:

    Well Harry- it is actually YOU who exposes your colossal ignorance. From what you have posted here, it seems as if you have barely read the Bible, let alone studied it.

    Job not a real man? God said he was. That’s enough for me.

    Esther a comedic play?

    The Bible not literally true?

    And sir, to take you to task for what you’ve written at least 3 times- GOD IS NOT A “SHE”.

    Makes one wonder what “experts” you’ve been listening to, and reading.

    No wonder Doug is moderating most of your posts out before they get on.

    Any single verse in Holy Scripture can prove any single point, Harry. Read 2 Tim. 3:16. It says “ALL”. That includes Job, Esther, all the parables Jesus taught, and every passage about the HEAVENLY FATHER.

    And one last thing, my friend. I really can’t care any less about similar stories in “other religions”. Other religions are not going to get me to Heaven.

  35. Tangie wrote:

    Joe:

    I’ve been reading for awhile just never responded; however, your last post in reply to Mr. Peters, shows your total lack of knowledge. Mr. Peters is exactly right. Job was not a real person. The book of Job was written as a play (as in theater). Yes, even in BC times, they enjoyed fine art. Esther was the same. Maybe your fundy Bible thumping self as never had an original thought or researched anything. I grew up in an environment much like yours must be. I was told what to think and what to believe. Once I grew-up, I began to really examine fact vs ficition (which I dare say you probably never have done).

    You mentioned parables. Apparantly you don’t know the meaning of the word. A parable is a story used to teach a point that otherwise would be missed. Jesus never intended for people to take parables literally but to learn and understand his teachings. Job and Esther are parables to help us understand important truths.

    I feel very sorry for your intense lack of understanding. You’re the one who seems very angry and misguided, not Mr. Peters.

  36. Tangie wrote:

    Joe:

    I forgot to mention, I wrote an paper for a seminary class on Job and it meaning for the time it was written and it’ present day application. If your not afraid to expand your horizons and knowledge base, I’d be more than happy to e-mail you a copy.

  37. Joe wrote:

    Tangie- Thanks for your offer, but no thanks. You are as blind as Harry.

    What you both really need to do is to read your Bibles.

    1. God Himself referred to Job as a real live man, and allowed Satan to have his way with him (Job 1:8-12). Since this is just a “story” to your mind and Harry’s, are both God and Satan mythical as well?

    2. Ezekiel, one of Israel’s “major” prophets, refers numerous times to Job as a real man (Ezek 14:14, 16, 18, 20) along with Noah and Daniel. FOUR times, he calls them “these three men”. If Job is a myth, then so is Daniel and the captivity, and so is Noah and the flood.

    3. James, the half-brother of the Lord Jesus, calls Job a real man (James 5:11). He uses him as a very real example of a human being who endured under trials. In the verse before, he ties Job in with the prophets, who have “spoken in the name of the Lord”.

    No thanks; actually, I feel sorry for the two of you. Explain away Scripture, and you erode the Rock on which you profess to stand. Wouldn’t want to be in your shoes for a second.

  38. Harry Peters wrote:

    Joe,

    On referrring to God as a SHE. You must know that the origins of the Old Testament were an oral tradition where the stories of the faith were told around meals and camp fires. They were not written until many years later. It was an elitest, sexist culture–much like it is today–but even worse if you can imagine that. I referred to God as He/She because God is a SPIRIT and as such presumably has no penis or testicles. Therefore, it makes as much sense to call God a SHE as it does a HE unless you believe that males are superrior in God’s sight. I don’t believe that for one minute. In addition, God has as many traits that we associate as being female traits as those we associate with male traits. It does make it very easy to promulgate sexism and keep women beat down and into submission, when you impose your logic. I believe that God loves females every bit as much as males and that God is a spirit. It is MAN who assigned the male persona to God.

  39. Harry Peters wrote:

    My friend and brother Joe,

    A final thought from old Harry. If you recall I never said that there are other paths to God than through Jesus. I also said that Jesus was MY path to God. What I did say was that I do not presume to know what or how God thinks. I also said that if God, the creator and sustainer of the universe, chooses to allow a Muslim or Hindu or anyone else into the kingdom of God through another avenue or religion, it is perfectly okay with me. Maybe that is more succinct and clear than I said it before.

  40. Joe wrote:

    Harry-

    None of us could ever presume to know how God thinks..unless, of course, He wrote it down for us to KNOW, as recorded by John numerous times in his epistles.

    As pointed out to you by numerous posters- the Word of God is crystal clear on this point. There is only one Way, and He died on a cross. If God could “allow” others to come to His Heaven by other ways, then the death of His Son was a waste.

    As far as the gender issue, what you have written, pardon me for saying, is pure and unadulterated nonsense. Every personal pronoun used of God about Himself is male gender. The OT God was never close; He was shadowed, hidden, obscure. Through Christ, the NT God can now be our Heavenly FATHER. There is not a hint in any passage of the Bible, that suggests the female gender. And it is NOT, as you suggested, a “sexist” thing. It is what it is. Sexism is an invention of humankind, not the Lord.

    That women were subjugated to second-class status in Scriptural times is without controversy. But the salvation Jesus brought elevated women to a status they had never been lifted to before. He appeared to more women, intervened for more women, thought kindly of more women etc., than He did men. He allowed a woman to be first witness to His resurrection, and backed up her testimony. The only faithful witnesses to His crucifixion, besides John, were women.

    You’ve been listening too long to “politically correct” liberals, my friend.

  41. Tangie wrote:

    Joe:

    I feel very sorry for you that you are so insecure in your faith and beliefs, that you aren’t even willing to have your knowledge base widen. If you were truly comfortable w/your stance, then you would, without hesitation, want to read other views besides your own.

    Nothing I said makes my belief in God and my personal relationship w/God any less than yours. I have been able to rise above my independent Baptist upbringing, where I was told what to think and believe, by preachers that maybe had a High school education but certainly not a college education and most definately not a real seminary education.

    Knowledge is not a dangerous thing. In fact, knowledge only helps to strengthen one’s faith in God. If you can’t or won’t see that, I feel very sorry for you.

  42. Harry Peters wrote:

    Joe,

    Looks like we just see things differently, which is okay. “Politically correct liberals” sounds like something I would be against in politics, but I have to tell you that the Gospel is LIBERAL and radical! That’s a big part of what got Jesus nailed to the cross and crucified.

    I believe that you and I have many more things in common that those that separate us. As an example, I know that neither of us believe in the “bump and grind,” “sexy” trash that is going on in SG Music. For that matter, we both adore SG Music. I’m very conservative and politically, I’ll bet we vote identically.

    Much of what you say leads me to realize that you are a thinking man, which I greatly admire.

    In regard to the gender of God, if you must view God as a macho male, so be it. Jesus wept over Jerusalem and commented how often he had wanted to gather them under his wings as a mother hen. That is definitely a feminine reference that Jesus is making toward himself. Since Jesus is a part of the holy trinity, he seems to be taking sex out of the equation.

    My wife, Fonda, asks why would it matter if God were male, female, neuter or anything else, if one weren’t prejudiced? Personally, I could really care less if God is a sexual being, but I believe that is low-minded and earthly minded and has nothing to do with God and heaven. Do you believe that all angels are male, too? Do you think that women shouldn’t be pastors? You alluded to the point, but didn’t quite say it, that if it weren’t for women, the church would not be here today.
    Joe, it’s all good. I can’t prove that God is sexless and you can’t prove that God has a penis and testicles. But, why would God need sex organs if He/She were not going to procreate?

  43. Joe wrote:

    Tangie-

    There is absolutely nothing MORE secure in my life, than my faith in the Bible, and in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    If you think my faith rests on whether or not Job was a real man, think again.

    However, I showed you clearly that Job, as a man, was just as real as was Daniel or Noah. James and Ezekiel both say he was a real man. And so does the God of Heaven.

    If you wish to believe the word of man, then it is your right. I choose to believe the Lord, and His Word. Paul warned Timothy against the very thing you are trying to sell me. The “knowledge” of learned men, who stand in opposition to God’s Word.

    Please don’t feel sorry for me!

  44. tangie wrote:

    Joe:

    You have just proven my point. My guess is your not smart enough to even know it.

  45. tangie wrote:

    Joe:

    Oh, by the way…. most biblical scholars have their doubts that Daniel was a real person too. Just food for thought.

  46. Joe wrote:

    Tangie-

    This will be the last I write on this. I went to a Christian university. I have a Bible book library of around 800 books.

    At no time in college, and in no book I own, have I ever read a single reputable person espousing this nonsense.

    Here’s the issue; if you start turning this part and that part of the Word of God into a fairy tale, then you end up wondering what really is real. You will not know where to stop, or where draw the line. And all the while, whatever foundation you have staked your forever on, might just be crumbling around your feet.

    I will see both Job and Daniel in Heaven. I hope to see you there too.

    You have a choice. You need to decide whom you’re going to listen to. Your eternity might be at stake on it.

  47. tangie wrote:

    Joe:

    Here is some food for thought. I have shared this many times w/my congregation, where I am the Director of Christian Education.

    How do we react when tragedy strikes in our city? Do we find a way to make it the victim’s fault? Why did Katrina destroy whole cities and take the lives of so many people? Was God in the storm? How do we react when tragedy strikes in another country? Do we say that God is punishing the residents because they believe in a different god? How do we react, when someone, that we love and care about, is suddenly taken from us or is stricken by a terrible disease or loses all their material wealth? Do we tell the family, “It’s ok, remember, all things work together for good” or do we secretly wonder of what sin they must be guilty?

    Understanding pain, suffering and tragic loss is very difficult when it affects a member of our church family. It is much easier to pass judgment on a victim we do not know or countries far from us. It eases our conscience to say the victim or country deserved what transpired. When a member of our own church family is affected, we can not simply go on about our lives without giving a second thought. A myriad of emotions and questions are stirred within us. Why did this happen? Why did God allow it to happen? In times of tragedy we often hear statements such as: Mollie was such a good person or Mike was in church every Sunday. As adults, we have grown up believing that God is in control of every aspect of our lives. God is a fair God. Do the beliefs hold up under tragedy? The book of Job is helpful in bringing a sense comfort and understanding of suffering to the adults that I minister to in my church congregation.

    The book of Job helps raise questions that my congregation may have about life and relationships with God. Job is a clear example that righteous people can, do and will suffer. Job teaches us what suffering is. Suffering is not merely physical pain. Job suffered the physical pain of losing his heath as well as the pain of losing his possessions. He suffered the pain of alienation from his family and friends. The whole community made fun of him for his plight. An ironic part of his pain and suffering came from Job knowing he was a righteous person and feeling a sense of abandonment by God. Job vocalized his thoughts and feelings which give us an insight into the thought process of a “good” person going through unspeakable events. This vocalization process gives us a sort of road map through the grieving process.

    Most people of Job’s day believed in the doctrine of retribution. This doctrine stated that righteous prosper and the wicked suffer. When Job’s friends and community applied this doctrine to Job, they drew the conclusion that Job must be a wicked person. The doctrine of retribution can still be heard today. When Hurricane Katrina destroyed the Gulf Coast, I heard many people voice that New Orleans was a city of sin and this was God’s way to clean it up. When the Twin Towers were attacked on 9-11, many television evangelist proclaimed that God was punishing America for her evil ways and turning her back on the biblical foundations of the founding fathers. Is this not the doctrine of retribution? As a Christian educator, it is very important for me to teach my congregation that tragedy does not distinguish between good and bad, poor or rich, believer and unbeliever. Tragedy is non- discriminate. God does not cause suffering. We live in an evil world and because evil is in the world, bad things happen to the righteous and the wicked.

    When Job’s three friends came to give “comfort”, Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar brought with them the traditional orthodox views of the day. The three friends truly believed they would bring comfort to Job. They were sincere and without underlying motives. In Job 4-5, Eliphaz tells Job that he is not trying to offend him. Eliphaz testifies to all the good he has witnessed Job do in the community. Eliphaz then tells Job that a spirit came into him in a vision and exposed that Job was suffering because of a sin he had committed against God. Eliphaz was trying to make it easy for Job to confess. Eliphaz believed Job had a secret sin that caused God to punish him. Eliphaz had been taught that God only punished people that were evil. If Job were innocent as he claimed, this would not be happening to Job. Job maintained his innocence but it was met with deaf ears.

    Job demonstrates the thought process of a suffering person. In the beginning he is numb. Just when he thinks things can not get any worse, it does. He begins to examine himself, “Was there something I did to deserve this?” That is a typical reaction. We have a hard time comprehending our situation and trying to rationalize why we are going through this trial. The next thing Job did was to get angry with God and question why God was doing this to him. Job’s friend, Bildad, is appalled that Job was addressing the almighty God this way. How dare Job address Yaweh with disrespect! Who did Job think he was? In Job 9-10, we see Bildad tells Job to stop accusing God of making a mistake. Job’s children must have sinned and Job is paying the consequences for their actions. Just when Job thinks he can not stand anymore “comfort”, Zophar comes on the scene in chapters 12-14. He accuses Job of idle and foolish talk. He tells Job that he should stop demanding to try his case before God. He makes it clear that if Job does not cease and desist, he will endure more punishment from God.

    I am reminded of a book by Steve Brown called When Your Rope Breaks. In his book, Steve Brown says that when you are going through terrible suffering its okay to be angry with God because God already knows. It is important for me, as a minister to a hurting congregation, to remind them that God is our father and our mother. When we are angry with our earthly parents, they do not stop loving us. How much more does our heavenly parent love us? God wants us to express our feelings, both good and bad. This is the relationship we have with God. God loves us in spite of ourselves.

    When all hope is lost, God appears in a whirlwind to Job. I believe the most important verses in Job are found in 40:9-14. God asks Job:
    Have you an arm like God?
    Can you thunder with a voice like His?
    You tread down the wicked where they stand,
    Bury them in the dust together…
    Then will I acknowledge that your own right hand
    Can give you victory.

    God seems to be telling Job if he thinks it is so easy to keep the world together and to keep bad things from happening to good people, give it a try. It reminds me of the movie, “Bruce Almighty”. Bruce thinks that God’s job is a piece of cake. God gives Bruce a chance to keep things in order; Bruce fails miserably. God wants the righteous to live happy, carefree, peaceful lives but that is not possible. It is too difficult even for God to keep chaos and wickedness from claiming innocent victims. But as God stated to Job and the movie “Bruce Almighty” portrays, humankind could not live without God. After Job encounters God face-to-face, he understands that he only knew God through what he had been told. Job had never had a personal knowledge or relationship with God. Job understood that it was not about what happened to him but how he handled his tragedy and misfortune. God had never abandoned him, God was there listening to his cries the whole time.

    God expresses his anger toward Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar. God tells them that they have misrepresented Yaweh. God makes Job their intercessor. Job’s friends could only make sense of the world and Job’s sufferings by deciding that Job deserved his plight. To say that everything works out in God’s world may be comforting to the bystander but is an insult to the grieving and unfortunate. As a Christian educator, it is my ministry to help those in the grieving process as well as teach the congregation how to comfort. Tragedies are never simple issues. Many times, one’s faith is rocked. There is never a shortage of opinions and advice from those not experiencing the pain. It is important for me to teach my congregation that there are never simple answers to pain and suffering. Instead of asking God “Why is this happening to me?” we should ask God for help through the fire. Throughout scripture, we see that God hates injustice. God teaches us to “do justice, love kindness and walk humbly with God (Micah 6:8). Our job is not to sit in judgment of a tragedy, whether it is Hurricane Katrina, 9-11 or the sudden loss of one that is dear; rather our job is to ask God to help us. Job learned that in the end, God was on his side. God is on the side of the righteous today.

  48. Harry Peters wrote:

    Bob,

    If you haven’t heard of the scholars’ opinions that Tangie has listed, you must have gone to a Christian University with a right-wing, slanted view. I assure you that if you went to a United Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran or other mainstream university or seminary, you would have been exposed to a whole new world. As far as whom you hope to see in heaven? Food for thought. Last week my minister preached that many people that we thought we would see would not be there and many people that we would have thought would never be there are there. He used the parable of the enemy planting the weeds among the wheat as his text.

    Of course, since you believe that you have the gift of discernment or the righteous judgement of God, I suppose you can identify who and who not will be there.

  49. Joe wrote:

    Tangie-

    Your exigesis was excellent. I read through it quickly, as I am on the run, but I believe I agree with all that you have stated.

    The reality of what Job endured, was that it was a real man who endured it; therefore, a real example to us all. I am amazed that after he heard the wave after wave of terrible news, the first thing he did was to drop to the ground, and worship his God. That touches me deeply every time I read it.

    My 2 most-favorite passages are when he longs for a Daysman, a Mediator or Advocate, who would stand between himself and a Holy God, and be able to draw them both together. In the oldest book in the Bible, he longs for…Christ.

    As well, I love when he so boldly and confidently states “I KNOW that my Redeemer lives, and that He shall stand one day upon the earth…”

    Great thoughts. Thanks.

  50. Wade wrote:

    WoW… y’all been gettin’ it on over here and I did not even see it. I been watching the other threads… This thread is even on the 2nd page. Wished there was a counter on the front page that showed thread activity.

    Tangie, are you single?? You seem like the kinda woman I’ve been looking for all this years. Confident and able to speak your mind WITH REASON!!! I’m getting in the spirit just thinking of the possibilities!!!

    I better be quite now before I start sounding like Harry St. Peters!!! LoL;-))

    Harry & Tangie… your heads must be bleeding bad from banging against some of these folks that probable went to a college like Tennessee Temple here in Chattanooga, Bob Jones in Greenville, SC. Maybe even In that place up in Virginia. I know many of them and your just not going to win in their mind.

    Thank God they do not decide who gets in and who does not… We’d be in trouble. I love them though and pray that some day they will realize some of their beliefs ( attitudes )( Dogma I think Harry used ) are not to far off from the radical Muslims they rail against.

    Before you jump on me. I do not beleive that a muslim that has not accepted Christ as their savior and acknowledge that Jesus came to dies for our sins will not be there.

    Tangie, send me an email I would like to get to know you!!!

  51. tangie wrote:

    Wade:

    Thank you for your kind words. To answer your question; yes, I am single.

    Do you think you can handle such a strong, opinionated and smart female?

    I guess if your not a right winged fundy that thinks the mans role is to be a dictator, it might be interesting.

  52. Harry Peters wrote:

    Wade (50), So you think you are begining to sound like Harry Peters, eh? Well there may be other Harry Peters in the world, but I am the original and I just say what is on my heart and mind. I can take the heat. My wife, Fonda, makes it hard on me, though. She rubs it all over me every time somebody trashes me and I never live it down. I think I’ll go drink a glass of that “grape juice” that the Baptists say Jesus turned the water into. Then it will ALL BE GOOD!

  53. francisco wrote:

    “Love Not The World”

    ”For the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one”(I John 5:19)

    “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world will pass away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of The Only True GOD will abide for ever.” (I John 2:15-17)

    “If you were of the world, the world would love it’s own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said unto you, the servant is not greater than his Master. If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept My saying, they will keep yours also.” (John 15:19-20)

    “Where do wars and fighting among you come from? Do they not come of your lusts that war in your members? You lust, and have not: you kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: you fight and war yet you have not, because you ask not. You ask, and receive not, because you ask amiss, that you may consume it upon your lusts. You adulterers and adulteresses, don’t you know that friendship with the world is to be at enmity with The Only True GOD? Therefore whoever will be a friend of the world is the enemy of The Only True GOD.” (James 4:1-4)

    “The world cannot hate you; but the world hates Me, because I testify that the works of this world are evil.” (John 7:7)” and “The Messiah gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of The Only True God, Our Father.”(Gal 1:4)

    The Messiah testified: “If the world hates you know that it hated Me before it hated you.”(John 5:18) Truly, Truly, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone: but if it die it brings forth much fruit. He that loves his life in this world shall lose it; and he that hates his life in this world shall have it unto life eternal.” (John 12:24-25)

    John testified: “Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hates you.” (I John 3:13) “ James testified, “Whoever would be a friend of this world is the enemy of GOD”(James 4:4)

    The “earth” is The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father of ALL! The “worldly” systems are the creation of, and under the dominion of “the god of this world”, he who is “the father of lies”, he who “has blinded the minds of those who believe not The Messiah”! All the nations of this world are under the dominion of, and serve, the evil one for he provides the fuel that feeds mankind’s “imag”ination, and mankind’s “imagination is destroying and perverting Creation(land, air, water, creatures, Truth, Love, Peace, Faith, Simplicity, .etc.) ;-(

    And the “strongest thing” in the evil one’s worldly systems? “Woman”…… yet The Truth, that which is of The Only True GOD, is stronger even than woman. (read I Esdras 3&4 of the Apocrypha) And Truth, Love, Peace, Faith, Mercy, Hope,,,etc,,, all that is “good”, is of The Only True GOD and is of HIS Spirit, not of this world. Those born of The Spirit, those born of The Only True GOD, are the brethren of The Messiah, for they received “a love of The Truth that they might be saved”. Reborn!

    And those who have received “a love of The Truth” have separated themselves from this world and those of this world, for they have taken heed unto The Call of The Only True GOD to “Come out of her MY people.” They are “in, but not of this wicked, evil world”, and The Only True GOD has received them, and is “A Father unto them, and they are HIS sons and daughters”. And they follow, and desire to be like their Master and Brother, The Messiah, He Who was “the firstborn of many brethren”. And as “The Messiah was a servant of The Only True GOD”, so also His Brethren are “servants of The Only True GOD.”

    The called out ones are not “adulterers and adulteresses”, they are not “friends of this wicked, evil world”, they do not “fornicate with the god of this world” for they know that “to be a friend of this world is to be the enemy of The Only True GOD.” They are at war against the evil spirits that possess those who are of this world.

    And they do not “allow that woman Jezebel, which calls herself a prophetess, to teach. For she teaches others to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. The Only True GOD gave her a chance to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.” (Rev 2:20-21)

    “fornication” and “adultery..” in that which is recorded above signifies spiritual fornication with “the god of this world”, which is to love that which is of his world.

    Once again, the “earth” is The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father of ALL! The “worldly” systems are the creation of, and under the dominion of “the god of this world”. Those who “love this world” all serve “the god of this world”, and play their part in the processes that seek to destroy The Creation of The Only True GOD. “And The Only True GOD will destroy them who destroy the earth.” (Rev 11:18) Global warming, polluted air, land and waters, toxic wastes, sexual perversion, evil inventions of destruction, greed, hate, carnal warfare, dis-ease ,,,etc,,, are all destructive processes that have their root in “the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life”. And as stated, “woman is the strongest thing of this world”. Yet stronger than woman is The Truth, which is in those who have “received a love of The Truth”. The Truth Is Alive in those who have been born of The Spirit for “they no longer love this wicked, evil world and it’s things, nor do they love their own lives in this world”. They but seek and desire The Will of GOD, as they await their final transformation. “Corruptible to Incorruptible” ndeed and Truth!

    Now “the ground was cursed for Adam’s sake” because he “hearkened unto the woman”. Adam listened to a woman rather than obeying The Only True GOD. Yet because of Faithful Noah, The Only True GOD “no longer would curse the ground for man’s sake” because Noah obeyed The Only True GOD! (Genesis 8:21-22) And the Faithful today are exhorted to “love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.” And Faithful women are exhorted to “be in silence.” “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. For I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” “For Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (I Timothy 2:11,12,14) A man and woman joined together in obedience and submission unto The Only True GOD are blessed indeed. All who are not obedient, all who will not submit themselves unto The Only True GOD will have to answer to HIM..period.. Be not of those who deny and defy “The One GOD, Father of All”. Be not of those who are destroying and perverting HIS Creation(land, air, water, creatures, Truth, Love, Peace, .etc.)!

    “The Only True GOD is The HEAD of The Messiah, The Messiah is The Head of the man, and the man is the head of the woman”. Multitudes pervert GOD’s Order because they have been seduced by ” the commandments and doctrines of men and devils”. Multitudes are seduced by the religious systems that are in and of this evil world. Seduced because they love this evil world and their own life in it! “Set your affections on things above”. Desire heavenly, eternal things. Quit serving ‘time’ in the prison that is this world and take heed unto the call to ”Come out from among them and be separate!”

    Once again, “Come out” of the worldly systems, which are the product of mankind’s “imag”ination, especially the religious systems. “Come out” from among those who are destroying and perverting Creation and be of those who follow The Messiah on “The Way to The Truth of The Life”.

    Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this world……. francisco

  54. Pedantic wrote:

    Now THAT is a “stopper” - even a reference from Esdras, very impressive.

  55. Wade wrote:

    Tangie… Great Post… i am trying to reach you but AV will not post my love letters. I have tried 2 x… if any one could help me with how you email ppl from here with out having to post email addys on the thread I would appreciate it. Doug is BLOCKIN me here. I thik I have finally found the woman of my dreamz.

    Harry I will never be able to sound like you except we both can get down some rabbit paths on worldly subjects…

    You are the man Harry!!! Between your Jesus Built the Church on the Rock and Dick’s little church lesson. WITH TANGIES LESSON I think on another tread I am a little surprised at the silence of some of the FUNDY’s as Tangie calls them… THAT’S HOT…

    A Priest did tell me since you post last Monday there had been a increase in conversions.

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