eBay alert: Pastor and Family for sale

Dunno if this is for real or not (almost funnier if it isn’t) but RH sent along this eBay auction. Check out the photos.

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Comments

  1. Jason Miller wrote:

    Funny…but if I may skew this comment section before it begins(!), I am glad that, as an Anglican priest, I don’t have to worry about being “out of the box” for worship! There is a real freedom in tradition.

    Sorry if I’m too OT–just popped out.

  2. GospelMusicFan wrote:

    Doug.
    Part of the job description states “hopes to find a church that is untraditional and is ready to reach their community.”
    The words “untraditional” and “community” really caught my attention.
    You have really have reached this community through in a untraditional way.
    Talking about have something in common!

  3. Eric Kaunitz wrote:

    Too Funny!

  4. Leebob wrote:

    “Untraditional” reaching of the “community”?
    Bring on EHSS baby!!!!!!!

  5. Alan wrote:

    Well, ain’t that eBay auction - assuming it isn’t a joke - a sign of the times in which we find ourselves?!

  6. rr wrote:

    Give the guy credit - he’s creative!

  7. Irishlad wrote:

    I’d give 3 grand for the wife alone.

  8. apathetic wrote:

    There is real freedom in tradition???

    Did Christ or the Apostles ever appeal to tradition? No! Not even once. But rather warns as follows: “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” (Colossians 2:8) Were the traditions in your church invented by man or Christ?
    Did Christ Condemn Tradition? Yes! “But he (Jesus) answered and said unto them (the scribes and Pharisees) ‘Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition’? (Matthew 15:3 (read also verse 4-9))
    Scripture warns us against tradition! “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” (Colossians 2:8)

  9. Janet wrote:

    As I have many pastors in my family, many of them quite off-center, this looks very familiar. My brother-in-law, Pastor Ken, died last year of cancer - his church is still looking for a replacement. This guy might be a good fit!
    By the way, just where is the “contentinental” US? Does it even exist?

  10. Jason Miller wrote:

    apathetic–if you would like to engage in an actual conversation about freedom in tradition, my email address is tiojason323 [at] yahoo [dot] com

  11. CBS Teach wrote:

    Jason,

    Are those traditions man made? There is no freedom in man made tradition.

  12. Harry Peters wrote:

    Apathetic (8) and CBS Teach (11). Don’t skin your ignorance by engaging in debate with an Anglican Priest. I’ve never met Jason, but I can assure you that he will win the debate. Who set the traditions that most of the Christian Church follows (at least the Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran and some Presbyterian and United Methodist)? The traditions were set by those who actually walked on the earth with Jesus and studied at his feet. It is the right wing, evangelical fundamentalists who decided to branch off from the true Chrisitian Church and splinter off to start something new on their own. A lot of churches (mostly Baptist) still do this when they disagree about something important (like say the color for the new carpet) they pull up stakes and start a new church. I was driving to our state capitol the other day. It is a 1 1/2 hour drive. I kept noticing churches of the same “denomination” (cult or sect for those who study religion) within sight of each other. I started to look more closely. In the space of 10 miles, I spotted 15 Freewill Baptist Churches. And I didn’t even count the “Fire Baptized “Holiness” whatever the heck they are. I know it will blow some minds, but the Catholic Church is the original Christian Church. It was started by St. Peter…the one of whom Jesus said “Upon this rock I will build my church.” I’ve heard some of you Bible Thumpers and “holy people” rant and rail and say that “Roman Catholics” were not going to heaven because they had not been “SAVED,” utilizing your magic bullet 3 point prayer. Ignorance abounds. I’ll bet you believe that the world was created in seven 24 hour days, too, don’t you?

  13. gc11 wrote:

    cool s/n #12…

  14. Irishlad wrote:

    Harry St Peters.My man!.U’ve the BIGGESTS ‘rocks’on this site(at the moment).heheh.

  15. not beavis wrote:

    #14, Too true, too true. Too bad they’re all in his head =)

  16. Ted wrote:

    He needs to say a little more about himself.
    He needs to give his educational background. His theology (is he KJV only)

  17. apathetic wrote:

    No conversation needed. I don’t want to hear what you “think”. Just give me what God’s word says about it.

    “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” (Colossians 2:8) Were the traditions in your church invented by man or Christ?
    Did Christ Condemn Tradition? Yes! “But he (Jesus) answered and said unto them (the scribes and Pharisees) ‘Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition’? (Matthew 15:3 (read also verse 4-9))
    Scripture warns us against tradition! “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” (Colossians 2:8)

  18. Jason Miller wrote:

    apathetic–it’s not about what I “think.” It’s called conversation, debate even–it’s what normal, rational people do when they disagree.

    Since you’re so fired up about tradition, I hope there’s no tradition at your church. I’ll bet the order of service changes every week.

  19. apathetic wrote:

    Jason, you’re posting thoughts but not word.

  20. Jason Miller wrote:

    2 Thess. 2.15: So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

    2 Thess. 3.6: Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

  21. Joe wrote:

    To both apathetic and Jason-

    You both are right.

    Man-made traditions are a curse. Jesus railed against those of the Pharisees and elders.

    But in the church, as Jason has written, certain traditions were to be guarded and kept; those things passed down from the Lord via the apostles.

  22. wackythinker wrote:

    Harry, The Greek Orthodox Church claim they were before the Roman Catholic Church. Since you see to be the authority, which really came first?

    More importantly, does it really matter which traditions came before another? I think Jesus was telling us the outward appearances were not as important as what only can be seen by God.

  23. Wade wrote:

    Harry St. Peters… Before they try to pick ya apart… ya know it is coming and I bet I know by whom!!!

    Try living in the Chattanooga Area and you have the Baskin Robbin’s Baptist & Church of Gawds goin’ @ it, with Little Debbie’s Sat Only Church ( 7th Day Adventist ) and ONLY GOD know what else and there are 3 Catholic Churches BENDING, BOWING. Oil Wearing, Water Sprinklin’ & Wine Drinkin’ getting it on.

    You can go for a walk in the neighborhood on Saturday Mornin’ & Get Guilt Bombs & Shame Grenades HURLED at ya!!!

    THOSE are some TRADITIONAL PPL!!! LoL;-))

    Oh, a church SPLITTIN’ & STARTING is sometimes not just over important things like the color of the new carpet. I have seen it be something like WHO’S CUZIN’ Was going to patch and restripe the parking lot. Promise… it went to the CUZIN’ who gave them the most parking places cause it was BIGGER!! how’d he do it??? Made the parking places smaller!!!

    Show’m the what holds that thing up Harry. Tell your wife Fonda we said Hi!!!

    SPEAKIN’ of Little Debbie… you know why she smiles so much???

    Now here comes the BEATIN’ !!!

  24. Harry Peters wrote:

    Apathetic (17): If you would listen to Father Jason with an open mind, you could learn a great deal from him. From only what has been said about tradition so far, one could correctly conclude that “tradition” is neither exclusively good or bad. Jesus didn’t rail against “tradition” in and of itself. What he did criticize were those (scribes and pharisees and others) who held on to tradition so tightly that they missed the broader point of the kingdom of heaven now being among them. I would love to read an intelligent comment to this post; therefore, I will defer to Father Jason and respectfully ask him to help us better understand.

  25. Dick Hardin wrote:

    Whackerthinker (22). You are right that the Greek Orthodox claim to be the original New Testatment Church. I’ve heard the Baptists say the same thing. They can’t all be right. But answer me this. If that is the case, how did Saint Peter get to be the first Pope? Speaking of Peter, Harry just called me with a strange invitation to come over to his house next door and have a glass of that grape juice that the Baptist claim Jesus turned the water into. He’s quite a colorful neighbor and LARGER than LIFE!

  26. tangie wrote:

    wacky thinker:

    I guess it’s time for a little church history lesson. Actually the Roman Catholic church and the Greek Orthodox church were one in the same. It wasn’t until the eastern European world was cut off in the (i believe) 3rd century, from the rest of Europe. The eastern world had no idea what was going on w/the gnostics spreading false doctrine. It was so bad that the Church changed the wording of the Nicene Creed (you do know what that is don’t you?) to reflect that the diety of Jesus. The wording was changed to ” We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotton of the Father…”

    The Eastern Church (now the Greek orthodox) wanted it to stay the same wording, still not understanding the problems the gnostics were causing. The chose not to comply and the Roman Catholic church basiclly excommunicated them.

    As far as traditions go, do you not realize that Jesus was a Jew??!!

    Jesus, his disciples, and the first church, would and did follow the order of worship that they were familiar w/ and grew up with. Jesus didn’t come to abolish tradition. In fact, Jesus said that he came not to destory the law but to fulfill it.

    The order of worship for Protestant Churches, ie: Preb., Meth, Ang, Luth, and Episc. follows closely the order of worship for a Jewish service. A service much like the early church and generations since have used. Yes, its been tweaked along the centuries but the essential elements are still there.

  27. Wade wrote:

    Harry they have been strangely quite since you set them straight on St. Peter was the one God chose to help build that church on the rock that became the Catholic Church. Silent in Agreement is what I am thinking.

    I talk to a Priest today and he said they had a strange surge in conversion since that post Monday Morning. Not even Joe, JW, Wacky or nobody has been as hard on ya as I thought they would be… Congrats on those stones.

    Tell Fonda I said Hi!!! I am just giddy since it looks like I have found love on the Heaven is getting crowded thread.

    Please say a prayer that is works out and I will be able to say… I FOUND LOVE on Averyfineline!!!

  28. Jason Miller wrote:

    I am still waiting for apathetic’s response.

    Church History 101: Essentially, there was one Church for a millenium. The official split between East (Eastern Orthodox Church) and West (Roman Catholic Church) is known as the Great Schism, which was in 1054, when the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope excommunicated each other. There had been tensions for quite some time over a number of issues, but 1054 is the marker.

    tangie, the Nicene Creed was actually a product (not a revision) of the 4th century, though you are correct in its purpose to confront gnostic understandings of Jesus. The Council of Nicea (325) rejected the teachings of Arius, who taught that Jesus was LIKE God. The Creed that came out of Nicea (and was completed at the Council of Constantinople in 387) WAS God (I’m oversimplifying a bit).

  29. Jason Miller wrote:

    oops–Nicea *TAUGHT THAT JESUS* was God.

  30. Wade wrote:

    Hey Tangie… If you know how I could send you an email with out us posting it on here for the haters LMK… I wrote you a long love letter and Doug would not post it… I took out a few things I thought might be causing him an aisse and he did not like that one either.

    But I really do like strong opinionated women to buck up against me ever once n a while. But I gotta figure out how to meet you.

    Liked the History Lesson. I love teachers…

  31. apathetic wrote:

    Jason Miller wrote:

    2 Thess. 2.15: So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you WERE TAUGHT BY US, either by OUR spoken word or by OUR letter.

    2 Thess. 3.6: Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from US.

    We are told to hold to traditions taught by Christ and desciples. Sprinkling water on the head of a baby for baptism wasn’t taught by Christ or the desciples. Ritualistic chants and “prayers” spoken by a priest then repeated by the congregation were not taught by Christ or the desciples (unless it is the Lord’s Prayer). Those are man made traditions. (Ones we are told to stay away from)

    So what traditions are you refering to that you find freedom in? (that aren’t man made)

  32. Jason Miller wrote:

    apathetic–where do you see in the Bible that the traditions that Paul gave necessarily came from Jesus?

    I gave you the Bible, you can’t handle it. In fact, I would like you to show me where in the Bible it says we can only get truth from the Bible.

  33. apathetic wrote:

    Jason, I am using the scriptures YOU provided. Traditions that came down from Jesus and the Desciples are the ones that are OK. The man made traditions are the ones that aren’t. According to the Bible, in the scriptures YOU provided.

    The Bible says to stay away from the traditions that are man made, like the examples I provided earlier. (Ritualistic chants and prayers that are man made and not Biblical) I think that stepped on your toes a bit?

    Again, are the traditions you find freedom in, the ones passed down from Christ and the Desciples or the ones that are man made? You are the one who can’t handle it. I point out that the Bible says to stay away from man made traditions then you question Biblical truths????

  34. Jason Miller wrote:

    apathetic–I don’t question Biblical truths. I question your a priori assumption that the Bible is the only place where we can get truth about corporate worship. You are operating from a regulative principle of worship, I hold to a normative principle. I am saying 1) the Bible does not have to be the only source of authority for how we worship, and 2) the Bible never says that it is the only source of authority for how we worship. That is a big difference from questioning Biblical truths. It is an interpretive question, not an authority question.

    You realize that you have changed your position? Earlier in the thread you said “Did Christ or the Apostles ever appeal to tradition? No! Not even once.” I have demonstrated that you were wrong. Now you say, “Traditions that came down from Jesus and the Desciples (sic) are the ones that are OK.”

    So which traditions is Paul speaking when he says, “hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter”? The Bible commands us to keep the traditions that Paul passed on. He taught them in at least two different ways: by letter and by speech. We can look at the epistles and say, there is Paul passing on the traditions by letter.

    But what about those traditions that Paul specifically mentions as passed on by spoken word? They were as authoritative as those written down. So did they die with Paul, or did he pass them on to others, who in turn passed them on?

    Feel free to step on my toes–I’m a big boy! :)

  35. apathetic wrote:

    My position did not change. I just clarified it. Of course by traditions I meant man made traditions. When I think of the word tradition, not only do the man made chants and ceremonies come to mind, the “can’t have a mustache, hair can’t touch the collar” crowd fall into man made traditions as well.

    How convenient for any tradition that is non-Biblical (man made) to receive the status of one that must have been passed down by spoken word, seeing as how there is no documentation there. Is that what you truly believe of your man made traditions/chants/prayers or is that just an excuse for them?

  36. Jason Miller wrote:

    You didn’t answer my question. What about the traditions that Paul specifically mentions as passed on by spoken word? They were as authoritative as those written down. So did they die with Paul, or did he pass them on to others, who in turn passed them on?

    Remember, this isn’t about conversation with me, as you put so bluntly before–this is about the Word.

  37. apathetic wrote:

    We do not know what traditions were passed on by word of mouth. I do doubt that they died with Paul. I’ll give you that. Of course we know how reliable word of mouth is. I’m sure others input their own views/thoughts of the time. You ever played the Telephone game?

    How about your Book of Common Prayer? Is that still used to dictate every service? What is said, what is prayed??? Did that come from Paul’s spoken word or Thomas Cranmer? Or have you went to the Book of Common Worship now? Authored by the Liturgical Commision, not Paul the apostle.

  38. Jason Miller wrote:

    The “telephone game” is not an accurate illustration of the oral culture of the first century. They could not rely on books or written materials because they were very expensive and few were able to access them. They had to rely on the verbal word much more than we do. In fact, your argument is the same as that of those who doubt the authenticity of the Bible, saying that gospels written decades after Jesus’ death would be flawed and miss a great deal of information. No, we say in the Christian tradition–their culture was able to pass on information in a verbal manner that we are unable or unwilling to do today, because that was what they knew. It was a thoroughly reliable method of passing along information.

    The Book of Common Prayer (BCP) discussion is an altogether different matter. Remember, I don’t believe that we must only worship in the ways prescribed in Scripture. I believe that any manner of worship is legitimate, is holy, as long as it is not prohibited in Scripture. Nowhere does the Bible prohibit written prayers or common worship. I’m more than willing to discuss it, even defend it, but it is a different argument.

    Look, I grew up in a nondenominational free church. I found freedom in a liturgical church because I don’t feel like I have to conjur up something new every week (which was my original critique of the eBay auction). Saying the same words each week stirs my soul, reminds me over and over of the fundamental truths of the Christian Faith. That’s not to say we don’t have to be careful not to fall into the trap of “vain repetition.” But repetition itself is universally shown to be a powerful teaching tool, and is how we believe God instructs us through the liturgy. Vain repetition is done for the sake of doing it–we do repetition for the sake of learning, of teaching.

    Our worship is soaked in Scripture. I promise you that we read more from the Bible in Sunday worship than 95% of nonliturgical churches. We read four passages a week–one from the Old Testament, a Psalm, one from the Epistles, and one from the Gospels.

    We plead with the Lord at the beginning of each worship service to make us worthy to worship him. “Almighty God, to you all hearts are open, all desires known, and from you no secrets are hid: Cleanse the thoughts of our hearts by the inspiration of your Holy Spirit, that we may perfectly love you, and worthily magnify your holy Name; through Christ our Lord. Amen.” Where is that prayer unbiblical? Is that really not a prayer that you could endorse with your whole heart? I’m not asking you to adopt it personally, but to recognize that it reflects the heart of the Bible, and that it reminds us each week of who we worship and who we are as worshippers of him.

    Sorry about the length.

  39. apathetic wrote:

    Jason,

    The content of the prayers certainly doesn’t sound unbiblical to me. The part that concerns me is that it is repeated every service, therefore making it a tradition. The prayer was was written by man, not by Christ or the desciples. Therefore it becomes a man made tradition that we were warned about. To me, it sounds like an earnest plea for clean hands and a pure heart. Maybe Paul should have been more specific when he warns us of man made traditions. LOL.

    If you find freedom in doing the same thing over and over more power to you. I find freedom in relying on the Holy Sprit to inspire what is said and done in a service and not being bound to repetitive sermons and prayers. We’re different. Guess that’s what makes America what she is.

  40. buttercup wrote:

    Jason,
    Your “pearls” are being trampled.

    Or, to quote my favorite movie: “I have the feeling we’re on the verge of something just terribly important.”

  41. Jason Miller wrote:

    buttercup–I appreciate the back-up, but anytime I can converse in charity with a fellow brother or sister in Christ, God forbid I see him or her as swine.

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