Open thread

So my avfl email box filled up without my realizing it, which meant no comments got forwarded to the workaday account I use to moderate avfl posts. Thus the dearth of comments posted on the site for the last … what … day or two? Apologies.

I’ll be traveling for the next few days. Talk amongst yourselves.

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  1. Robert wrote:

    Anyone got any thoughts or info on how artists are dealing with fuel prices?

  2. GD wrote:

    I’ve just returned to my room from the Christ Church Choir Music Conference. What an unbelievable 3 days! The choir was remarkable as usual, but the overall organization of the event was unreal. It was truly first class! The evening concerts were Christ honoring. Voices of Lee was a real treat. Those folks can truly sing. A youth choir from Norway, Voice of Joy, was also there. It was a joy to see these kids praising Jesus. Their accompaniment? A single grand piano! Wow! Geron Davis and Kindred Souls and Avalon were outstanding as well. Landy and Joy Gardner and the entire church family were great hosts. I guess the purpose of this post is this. Yes, Christ Church is a different kind of church. Not every church could have pulled this off. But, when we do things for the Lord, we should always give Him our best. Congrats to the Gardners and the Christ Church family. It was truly a blessing to have been a part of such a great event.

  3. quixotic wrote:

    It was remarked to me last evening, while watching an hour-long program of gospel music, that it seems southern gospel music lacks a majority of tall men. Has anyone else noticed this trend?

  4. Irishlad wrote:

    Just watched a really good 9min youtube clip of the oaks live 1981. It features Rich Sterban on two songs with a short interview in between.Even though they were deep into country/pop at the time, this clip displays how bass should be sung;power,depth and great musicality all showcased here. Bravo!

  5. GospelMusicFan wrote:

    Anyone going to the North Pole Christian Music Festival?

  6. pk wrote:

    I have been surfing and watching some vintage SG groups such as The Lefevres,with a beautiful Eva Mae singing Feelin Fine,Sego Brothers and Naomi - A Beautiful Life, and The Speers. All I did was search some old groups…gosh I miss Jubilee that was on Sunday mornings when I was a kid.

  7. freddyfastbeat wrote:

    Is anyone planning on going to Jason Waldroup’s farewell concert at First Baptist in Morristown, Tn?

  8. Tommy McKenzie wrote:

    #2 GD

    I am so glad you enjoyed your experience at the Christ Church Music and Worship Conference. I am a member of Christ Church and I was at the concerts. I agree, both concerts were phenomenal and Christ Church always does a good job of giving their best to God. Hope you can come again, and I would encourage anyone that wants to be challenged and uplifted at the same time to attend as well. I pray that God was able to use this conference to impact lives and uplift directors, musicians, and pastors so that they can return to their congregations refreshed, renewed, and with a new fire that will spread over their congregation.

    God Bless,


  9. BF wrote:

    I am curious how some some of you professional singers approach a 95 degree outdoor summer sing. Is there an ideal amount of liquids consumed before. Is water the only liquid you drink? Any good tips?

  10. HHE wrote:

    So I was just now trying to see if there were any SG concerts in my area tonight. I went to the SN site. So now I must subscribe to their mag to view the “Concert Billboard”.

    Never mind that I have had a subscription to their mag for many years (Over 20). I even currently pay them for gift subscriptions.

    For a few years now SN has given me a free subscription because I am a travelling Singer/Songwriter(One of the reasons I have bought gift subs).

    Suddenly, I must now pay them for the right to view their limited site. When Salem takes over a media outlet they go after every penny irregardless of a persons loyalty to the property Salem purchases.

    Hey I realize Business is Business. Seems like a person should receive some extra value for the costs.

    Thanks for letting me vent…I sure feel better!

  11. NoNameNashvilleMan wrote:


    All you need to do is contact SN - I am sure there is a code for you since you get a complimentary issue.

    Don’t throw up until you make sure you are really sick!

  12. Trent wrote:

    The big news in SG on several sites now (check out is that Joel Hemphill is proclaiming that Jesus was not God in the flesh.

  13. Ken Silva wrote:


    In regard to the story Trent just mentioned Music Scribe is quoting Apprising Ministries as their source in my article “Christian” Gospel Artist Joel Hemphill: “Jesus Is Not God”, which includes quotes by Joel Hemphill himself from his own website and his 2007 book “To God Be The Glory.”

  14. Irishlad wrote:

    Priceless. Get the faggots ready for ole Joel(and i don’t mean gays) let’s have ourselves a good old 15thc burning! Let’s save his worthless soul from Hell!!.(bet there’d be idiots out there to do to).

  15. Irishlad wrote:

    #14.last word should be too.(’case you thought i was an idiot to two too,ok then,as well.

  16. Leebob wrote:

    #9 BF, I watch alot of singers carry their water with them on stage but haven’t done anything prior to that to lubricate their vocal chords. On the days that you sing, regardless of the temperature, it is important to lubricte your vc throughout the day. To wait until you are on stage places you behind the curve.

    BTW - who schedules an outdoor singing in 95 degree weather?

  17. Alan wrote:

    How sad. To think that my salvation was procured by the agonies and atoning sacrifice of a mere man, not the Son of God. I’ve long appreciated some of Joel Hemphills’ songs, but after reading his own words, they’ll certainly be diminished. To deny the deity of Christ is not only a serious thing, it’s blasphemous.

    Irishlad, no surprise, but once again you respond to something that’s extremely serious with ridicule and sarcasm. If you knew how the belief of such a pernicious doctrine grieved the heart of God, you certainly would have responded a whole lot differently.

  18. CVH wrote:

    Well, Joel can join the CCM groups Phillips, Craig & Dean and The Katinas; they subscribe to an anti-trinitarian doctrinal view. It may not be overt in their song lyrics but that is their doctrinal stance. They may be more visible now in CCM than Joel is in SG, but I still don’t understand how that particular doctrinal view can be justified by the industry.

    How far can we afford to go deconstructing traditional Christian doctrine and consider it acceptable? Does the ‘industry’ have any responsibility to maintain some standard? (I don’t mean niche issues, like someone’s a Pentecostal and someone else is a Baptist, I’m talking about the foundational basics of the faith).

  19. benjamin wrote:

    How sad.

  20. Wade wrote:

    WoW… How can you be a Christian and not believe in the Trinity??? If you rose from the dead and accented into Heaven what else can you be but Supernatural?? What else would you call it?? What else could it be but the Son of God???

    I am without a doubt the most liberal, forgiving non judgmental no guilt bomb throwing person you will ever meet and this just blows me away.

    J & J & Harry will have some fun with this!!

    Let me get out of the way!!

  21. Trent wrote:

    One thing I would like to hear from Joel Hemphill (and perhaps he is reading this site, as many artists do) is whether he has always held this view…I would hear to read his comments on that. It would certainly put some perspective on his music in my mind.

    Any of you SG historians….have any of the Hemphill songs of the past suggested that Jesus was or was not God in the flesh? Let’s take a look at some of his work and see what it does or doesn’t say on this topic.

  22. Phil Myrick wrote:

    Let’s not start a Joel bashing. Each and everyone us has our own personal relationship with God. Why not let his be personal. Oh, how bout keeping your relationship with the Creator personal too!

  23. Diva0427 wrote:

    If you’re going to be singing outdoors, it is good to drink plenty of fluids. One doctor a friend of mine spoke with recommended alternating btw Gatorade & H20. Water is great if it is hot, but if you are sweating a lot, you need something like Gatorade to help your system. Not sure if that makes sense, but that’s what he told her after she almost passed out after an early evening outdoor event.

  24. Alan wrote:

    Phil - #22. I just reread the comments since the subject of Joel Hemphill’s belief was introduced. I didn’t see any Joel bashing. Just a lot of sadness. The deity of Christ was supported, and the danger of the doctrine of anti-trinitarianism. There’s a real difference between standing up for what is truth and against a lie of Satan, and denigrating anyone who holds it.

    As for outdoor concerts in high heat, in my case Gatorade clogs my voice. So, I carry water up with me and try to get really well-hydrated beforehand. I’ve also come to realize that when I’m done, I shouldn’t run right into air conditioning. I personally leave a little buffer time to let my body temperature drop naturally.

    No one has jumped in on Robert’s (#1) question. I have no idea about anyone else, but these days, I figure that every 1000 miles costs me $550 in diesel fuel. It hurts. It’s forced me to schedule for the future more intelligently; trying to be in areas closer to each other with less mileage in-between dates. I’d be really interested in hearing what anyone else is doing.

  25. Revpaul wrote:

    #22 Phil Myrick wrote “Each and everyone us has our own personal relationship with God. Why not let his be personal”.

    Joel Hemphill has published a book entitled “To God Be The Glory” in which he sets forth his views. Those views are no longer personal, they are now public, and open to intellectual scrutiny, just like the works of any other author. I love Joel and Labreeska both, but I think he has seriously damaged his own career with this work. Certainly he must have taken that into consideration before publishing the book. I have only read the excerpts he has published on is website — I need to read the book (I guess . . . hmmm.)

  26. DrummingDrew wrote:

    I purchased several tickets for the August 2, Jason Waldroup’s final GV concert. My family and some friends will be going. I will let everyone know how it turns out. I am sure Gerald will be on top of his game. I am anxious to see how Jason fares, as they wil surely feature him often. I know it is a “Farewell Jason” concert, but I would like to hear Jacob Kitson too. Stay tuned…..

  27. BUICK wrote:

    Rev Paul (#25) is exactly correct. It was Joel Hemphill who made his heresy a matter for public discussion. #17 and #20 have framed this issue perfectly. “Who but God…?”

    In the excerpt from Joel’s book, linked in post #13, Hemphill quotes the book of Hebrews to support his position. That same epistle begins, “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, AND THROUGH WHOM HE MADE THE UNIVERSE.” (Emphasis mine.)

    It would appear that if God’s Son is not eternal, no one told the writer of Hebrews about it. God’s Son was there before anything was created and He was instrumental in God’s creating.

    And that is just from the prologue to the epistle to the Hebrews…the very epistle JH quotes to try to support his false doctrine. The prologue to John’s Gospel is even more specific and more undeniable in stating the the Word was with God and the Word was God…and the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

    The deity of Jesus is unavoidable in Scripture. The only way of denying it is to deny the authority of the Bible.

    NOW - as an adjunct to this post:
    I know that there are those (including our esteemed cyber-host) who lament that when people quote Scripture, it is a thread-stopper because it tends to stifle discussion and dissent. Seems to me that Scripture SHOULD stifle discussion and dissent. Once we are reminded of what the Bible says, that ought to bring a discussion to a conclusion. I always get a little wormy when someone says, “I know what the Bible says, however…” There should be no “however” once we know what the Bible says. As the old-time preacher is reputed to have put it, “God said it. I believe it. That settles it.”

    So, frankly, I find it encouraging that when someone quotes God’s Word, the discussion tapers off. That let’s me know we are a cyber-community that respects The Word.

  28. buttercup wrote:

    Good quote from Confucius:
    Rotten wood cannot be carved

  29. JM wrote:

    It would be fascinating to read a discussion revolving around the whole issue of when a person’s life is private and when it is public. Many people in various venues of life (not just SGM) seem to spend a great deal of energy in propagating a public persona or image that will gain them some degree of attention or notice. Often this is done to gain a greater audience or more sales or greater media attention. I guess as a public figure, the more well known you are, the greater opportunity there is for potential gain.

    However, when this public identity begins to gain the individual some degree of unwanted or undesired attention, they claim to be a “private person,” who’s life should not be opened to a high level of scrutiny and examination. Our courts, in various judgements and decisions, have seen both sides of this argument and have rendered verdicts favoring both points of view. Tom Cruise, Madonna and Brad Pitt have invested countless hours and dollars to establish a high profile, public image. However, when their religious beliefs, personal relationships or children’s welfare is called into question, they attempt to retreat to the warm embrace of being a private individual.

    It does not seem reasonable to assume that one should be able to write/publish/sell a book based on one’s well established public identity without understanding that the same public identity will be held accountable for the information detailed in the book. I guess that’s my long-winded way of suggesting that while Mr. Hemphill’s relationship with God is private, his documented positions relating to God are quite public and, as such, are open to public scrutiny and discourse.

  30. NonSGfan wrote:

    “Jesus Only” or oneness doctrine took it’s hold in 1913, but had it’s inception during the age of the apostles. A disciple of John was so enraged of the assertion their was no Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, he would baptize three times, making the person confess the trinity after each dunk. Joel is a nice man, but he’s so wrong it’s scary. Whoever the person is talking about not “Joel Bashing” and “it’s personal”, you need to know that the bible says, “Them that are spirtual judgeth all things”. AND that we are to “Judge Righteously”. We are to stand up against corrupted dortrines of devils and say what is right. If Jesus wasn’t God in the flesh, why did the Kenosis happen? “thought it not robbery to be equal with God”. He lost the “expression” of his divinity but not the “posession” of his divinity. Just as water (h20) can take on 3 forms (solid, liquid, gas) God has chosen to manifest himself in 3 forms. Father, Son, Holy Ghost. THE FATHER IS GOD, JESUS IS GOD, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD. All 3 distinct yet ONE in power and authority.

  31. Irishlad wrote:

    #17 Alan,you’re right, i am captious, but i am who i am and not ashamed of it. However your statement ‘grieved the heart of God’,took me to the fair. How can a spirit and unknowable Deity have a heart to grieve in the first place? That’s a human emotion and your statement was an(understandably)human emotionally inspired outporing.

  32. Alan wrote:

    Buick, #27, a most excellent reply, and a neat tack to take. I’ve been somewhat discouraged in the past when Scripture was quoted as the final answer, and some comments lamented its use. I couldn’t agree more - perhaps I’ve been wrong, and really should actually be encouraged when God’s word hushes the words of people.

    JM, #29 - you’re also correct in your thoughts about the energy expended to propel someone to the top of their craft, and then once they’ve “made it”, their cry is for privacy. Their take on it, of course, is that they always wanted their art to be well-known, but that their personal lives should remain just that. In a community as relatively small as sgm is we’ve come to meet or know Mr. Hemphill through his music and ministry. We’ve also come to know his family. This isn’t an invasion of his life or family, but a sadly necessary discussion about an entirely false doctrine that he believes. As well, we hope the music that we sing and enjoy is grounded in truth, don’t we? That makes this necessary as well as a valid discourse.

    Finally, #30, that was excellent as well. You mentioned Kenosis, and it was great to read your thoughts. The “emptying” of the Lord Jesus didn’t divest Him of one iota of His deity, just His inherent and intrinsic reputation. Great analogy of water too…three Persons of the Godhead, each equal in personality and essence, yet unique in Person and work.

    I can’t help but believe that the introduction of a foundational plank of faith that is under attack is a healthy thing, and that thought has been brilliantly defended by many of you folks. Maybe this thread will swing over to Doug’s latest post now, and it will be a fascinating continuation.

  33. InsideMan wrote:

    Matthew Holt is leaving the Perrys. According to my sources, his last date with them was Saturday night at the Jackson, TN Songfest.

  34. jbb wrote:

    #33. I sure hope you are wrong on this. There’s no mention anywhere else. I can understand, with his new son, but, I sure hope you are wrong.

  35. Alan wrote:

    Irishlad - I agree that to try to describe some of the attributes of God, we ascribe to Him certain human characteristics. And yes, a euphemism such as the “heart” is all that we can find. Still, it isn’t a reach at all. Note Psalm 145:8 - “The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy.” Would you not agree that the heart of God was revealed through the heart of Christ? At stake here is the very notion that Jesus isn’t God, remember. Note Mark 6:34 - “And Jesus, when he came out, saw a great multitude and was moved with compassion….” In I John 4:8, John writes “He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” The last time I checked, love was indeed an “outporing” of emotion, and seemed to emanate from the heart. Perhaps others would also care to take me to task here. I welcome it.

    Captious is one thing. Carelessness is entirely another. Your remarks that I’d responded to (#14) were made shortly after the subject was introduced. Before us is the consideration of one of the bedrocks of the Christian faith. Your personality is entirely your business, friend. The defense of the Person of Christ is infinitely more important than your smugness in what you are. We need to remember that before God is described as a God who IS love, John tells us that He’s also a God of Light. And it’s that infinite holiness that should make us pause before we make the kind of ridiculous statements as you did up in post #14.

  36. Leebob wrote:

    FINALLY!!!!!!!! Common ground for Nonsgfan and Leebob!

    Now I can stand with you on this one. This has nothing to do with personal taste or style and EVERYTHING to do with Biblical truth. My issues with you have been that you hold to style and taste as strongly as you hold to Biblical truth. This is conviction, the other that you have been pounding on so eloquently is preference.

    Irishlad, “perhaps you are more acquainted with the wrath of God? Oh yeah, human emotion. How about the Love of God? Oops, my bad, human emotion,” Leebob said tongue firmly planted in cheek.

  37. Joe wrote:


    I would agree with Alan and others- your smugness and attempts at humor might sometimes be worth smiling at; but ina discussion of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, they just don’t work.

    As to your comments about the emotions and heart of God:

    Scripture is literally full of anthropomorphisms (metaphorically ascribing to God human features); such as heart, eyes, shoulders, hands, fingers, etc.

    As well, there are many anthropopathisms (metaphorically ascribing to God human emotions); such as anger, jealousy, repenting, being grieved, being angry, etc.

    There are even others. The Psalmist speaks of hiding for safety “under His wings”. These are all designed to help our finite minds understand just a tiny bit about the Infinite.

    Buick, NonSGfan, Wade, LeeBob, and Alan have all written excellent posts in this thread. I especially appreciated Buick’s comments about the value of Scripture, in sometimes stopping idle chatter and nonsensical drivel. Isn’t it supposed to do just that? It is good to see a number popping up with real reverence and respect for the Word of God.

    There is absolutely no wiggle room when it comes to the Deity of our Savior. Either He is the I AM…or it is blasphemy to consider the converse.

    If He is not the I AM, we all die in our sins (John 8:24).

  38. NonSGfan wrote:

    leebob, glad we agree. Makes me feel, I dont know…….giddy.
    LoL. One thing i’m as adimant about as anything is the deity of Christ. Hemphill is wrong, I hate it for him, but I’d love to challenge him to a one on one debate, just me and him, eye to eye, face to face. Not one book in my 4,000 book library would be quoted. Just my black bible on the coffee table.

  39. Me myself and I wrote:

    Does anyone know who did the song with the lyrics ’cause he’ll always be walkin in my shoes. It isn’t I Want To Be Just Like You by PC&D although the theme is real similar.

  40. mp3guy wrote:

    Sounds like a Gerald Crabb song. check the lyrics for “2 shoes” or “was it only yesterday”

  41. quartet-man wrote:

    #39, the answer is In My Shoes by Shiloh.

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