Money Quote of the day

From reader dan:

[P]ublishing royalties, no matter how small should be paid if the product is sold. Nickels and dimes pay bills the same as paper money!

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  1. VTO wrote:

    Great quote. Makes me think of what I ran into on a candidate’s website:

    “Protect Intellectual Property at Home:

    Intellectual property is to the digital age what physical goods were to the industrial age. Barack Obama believes we need to update and reform our copyright and patent systems to promote civic discourse, innovation and investment while ensuring that intellectual property owners are fairly treated.”

    Not sure how that fits with one of Obama’s biggest advisers (university professor) advocating that music be handled like Wikipedia: free for all, with contributions by all.

    Maybe that’s what Obama means by “update and reform” — “to promote civic discourse” and “innovation”?

    If so, songwriters can kiss even the pennies goodbye.

  2. Leebob wrote:

    Obama’s advisers are misguided yuppies that are disgruntled because they got busted for illegal downloads.

  3. Greg wrote:

    Leebob-we can sure agree on that one!

  4. HHE wrote:

    So Doug,

    This is the only way I could figure to reach you.

    I’ve noticed that you allow the same Poster to slam on Kirk Talley continually.

    Please know that I am not an ally of Mr. Talleys’.

    I was thinking; if you are gonna allow Kirk bashing, why not talk about the rest of the “Queers In The Chior”.

    Southern Gospel has way more Butchy Berthas’ & Swishy Sams’ than it will fess up to.


    Truth Does Not Slander.

  5. Leebob wrote:

    …sigh… sounds like HHE may be jealous and perhaps not getting enough press.

  6. cdguy wrote:

    HHE — A little off-topic, but maybe I can give a little insight. IMO the only reason Kirk has been singled out is that he’s the only one who has openly admitted he was dealing with this issue. He made the info public during an extortion attempt several years ago.

    I believe you’re probably correct in your assertion there are others, but until they confess, it’s probably not our place to “out” them. I do think it’s appropriate to talk about the issue, and what the Word says.

    There have been postings with insinuations and near-accusations of others in the bidness, but I’m not sure that’s the appropriate way to handle the situation, either. Perhaps the most important thing we can do is pray God will convict ALL of us of ALL our sins, to the point where we will repent from ALL our wicked ways.

    To paraphrase a quote I heard a few weeks ago, the worst sin is the one you don’t personally deal with.

  7. HHE wrote:

    No LeeStinkingBob, I’m not jealous. Perhaps fortunate for me, you didn’t get to read my “unedited” post. I wuz namin’ names!

  8. Wade wrote:

    What difference does it make who is gay and WHO AIN’T!!!

    Some of you would LOOSE YOUR MIND if you really knew. I love the music and the inspirational aspects of it.

    Kirk Talley’s, “I KNOW A MAN WHO CAN” is without question one of THE BEST ENCOURAGING UPLIFTING Songs of any kind any where.

    I still get the same feeling when I hear that song as I did hearing HIM sing as George Younce said something like it was the GREATEST Songs the Catherdals ever sang or recorded. Hey had seen it literally MOVE THOUSANDS of PPL!!

    Thats not going to change anything to me and if it does to YOU then it i YOU that has the problem.

    Kirk Talley is one of the greatest ppl of ALL time. I am not gay. I just think ALL of you that say anything negative about Kirk or anybody else because they are gay then GOD BLESS YOUR HEART as Aaron Wilburn says…

    I have a personal burden for gay ppl and the BASHING they take for a sin they no different than the preacher screwing the piano player thats not his wife, the CHIOR Director, back before they became Music Ministers, doing the hot blond soprano singer or The Youth Minister that got personal with a YOUTH MEMBER!! But ALL THOSE PPL are welcomed back in to church without little impact. But don’t dare ever come out an confess your sin like you are supposed to do and then buried for it the rest of your life.

    Joe, JW or any of the thumpers can send all the verses they want but I am telling you they can not help it. They live in constant fear of being outed and that’s not the ones singing in Christian Music. They would gladly switch if they could. It would make their lives SOO MUCH EASIER!!

    I’M TELLING YOU… I COULD NOT SWITCH if they found out they had it wrong all these years and it was supposed to be the other way around.

    If your out there and gay and you still love the lord and are still inspired by a good message and music there should be a place and I am thinking about starting one.

  9. FW wrote:

    HHE: How come you know all of “them”? Do you go to the same parties?

  10. Chris wrote:

    Wow! How did this post get to Obama-hating and gay-bashing? (Not that I’m against either)

    I believe in the pay-for-music system. It works well to get writers what they deserve. If each song per album pays a dime to the writer, then EH&SS just made 10 writers $50K. Not a bad haul. If I’m a writer, I’ll cling to that deal like I cling to my guns and religion.

  11. HHE wrote:

    FW, Everybody in the Industry goes to same parties. So yep, I know em.

  12. scope wrote:

    Be careful who you accuse. I was told for years that a certain single singer was gay. He is now happily married with children, and the rumors have totally stopped. And I’m sure it is not a marriage of convenience.

  13. Leebob wrote:


  14. Brett wrote:

    Especially since the Bible says not one homosexual will enter the Kingdom. 1 Corithinans 6:9-11

  15. justa noutsider wrote:

    There have been gay ppl in not only gospel music, but country, CCM, etc. for years.

    If you don’t think there are gays in gospel music, then just make a little visit to NQC here in a few weeks. They come out in DROVES and lots of them are very “swishy” and open about it.

    I am not gay, but don’t have a problem with them in gospel music, but why do they have to be so damned(sorry) flaming about it?

  16. quartet-man wrote:

    #8, it makes a difference because God says it is wrong. The scenarios you mentioned are wrong too. Even if homosexuals cannot change their preference, they do not have to act on them. I see lots of attractive women. I can say no. Christ said no. They can say no too.

    As far as Kirk confessing, he only did that because he was caught. Had the extortion attempt not happened or he decided to pay them off, we would probably still never know.

    Now, there are other sins of course and doing well in one doesn’t mean the other is okay to do.

    With that said, I hope Kirk is overcoming it. In my opinion, his being tempted is not sinful. I get tempted by the aforementioned attractive women, but I don’t pursue it. If he is tempted, but doesn’t give in, good for him.

    I realize that his situation would be tough and that if he has asked for forgiveness and is trying his best to live the life, it would be harder with people always bringing up the past. However, we do have a right to hold him accountable.

    Michael English certainly did his share of sin, but I believe that he has repented and is living the life. Even so, unfortunately people have trouble forgetting and he will likely always be remembered for it like David is for Bathsheba, Samson is for Delilah, Peter is for denying him, Jonah is for the whale, Judas is for betraying him, etc. Even if we have the capability to forgive, the effects of ones sins and the memory are usually still there.

  17. quartet-man wrote:

    Another thing. Part of the ability to not give into temptation is to not set yourself up for it. If he goes to gay chatrooms or the like, he is that much closer to giving in. If someone who struggles with lust goes to porn sites they do the same. If a man is tempted by a certain woman and he seeks her out to spend time with her (especially alone) he is setting him self up etc. Remember Joseph ran off and left his coat behind when tempted. Had he stayed around he might not have been so strong. On the other hand, David went to the rooftop to see Bathsheba bathe and it might not have been the only time either.

  18. quartet-man wrote:

    Now, Dan’s quote is spot on. Stealing a bag of candy bars is as wrong as stealing an Ipod.

  19. Realistic wrote:

    Chris #10 said:
    “If each song per album pays a dime to the writer, then EH&SS just made 10 writers $50K. Not a bad haul.”

    Not quite.

    The current rate of 9.1 cents per song per album sold is SPLIT between all songwriters and publishers involved in the song. If it’s a relatively simple song, there might be two writers and two publishers, and each earn 2.275 cents.

    Such a tiny amount doesn’t add up very fast — especially in any genre of Christian music, even in a “big” release.

    That’s why most people who are songwriters need to have another job, an additional source of income, or a spouse to support them.

    Also, songwriters only receive those royalty payments once a quarter (if they’re lucky) OR usually twice a year. Not exactly a typical paycheck, eh?

    And of course, we know that all the royalties are paid, and paid on time, right? So there’s no delay at all in getting those pennies . . .

    Songwriting is hard work, full of more rejection than approval, and not the road to riches some people believe it to be.

  20. RLY wrote:


    Let any man without sin cast the first stone.

  21. Wade wrote:

    oh quartet man.. so you just avoid those women… but if you are married at least you get an outlet…If your homosexual… you can’t get married to have that OUTLET…

    So Quartet Man could you switch??? If hypothetically, some lost scrolls of teachings were discovered and it was supposed to be the other way???

    The reason some of you folks are so tough on the gays is because the answer to the question would be YES!!

    So you thinkin’ it would be easy for them.

    Has anybody heard from Tangie???

  22. Harry Peters wrote:

    You people are about to make me mad and make Harry Peters com down HARD on you. It will be with righteous anger, though as opposed to grudge.

    Leave Kirk Talley alone! You don’t know him and you have no right to pass judgment on him or anyone else.

    Have any of you ever witnessed homosexual acts between animals? It is common. Do you kill your queer pooch? I think not.

    Harry Peters thinks it’s a sin to judge, mistreat and bash someone because they are different. I doubt that any of the gay people in SG music are ever going to make a move on any of you.

    My wife, Fonda, says that if she were younger and single, she would go out with Kirk Talley and would not even say no to Ernie Haase (if he were single) just because he wears pink eye shadow and prisses around with that 20 year old spikey hair all over the place.

    As far as that statement about only being sorry because he got caught…talking about the ultimate judgment of somebody. We all know that the Holy Bible says that we will all be judged by the same judgment we judge others with.

    Now let me ask you. Do you want all of your most secret sins exposed in public? If they were, are you willing to be judged by the same standard you are judging Kirk and all of the other gay people in SGM? And don’t even give me any of that horse hockey that you don’t have secret sins. God knows all of our hearts.

    None of us have been innoculated to be immune to sin. If you don’t confess it publicly every time you do it, you are not sorry until you get caught either.

    You “thumpers,” as I think Wade called you, would be the ones standing around a gay person with stones in your hands, wouldn’t you?

    We should all share Wade’s sensitivity for gay people. I can’t explain why I love to take Sunday afternoon “Baptist naps” with Fonda, but it is apparently how God made me. Sexual urges are instinctual and strong. Well maybe some of you thumpers don’t have as healthy a sex life as Harry and Fonda
    Peters. Maybe your testosterone is about a quart low, which would make it easy for you not to sin.

    You all don’t have big enough stones to keep going after all these people, so you should just put them down instead of getting them off behind the rock pile.

  23. quartet-man wrote:

    #20, I am not casting a stone. I am saying what God says about it being wrong. I have sinned too, but I won’t say that what I do that is wrong is not wrong just because I have done them. Kirk himself even said he was wrong to do it. Now, either he knows it is wrong, or he said it because it was expected.

  24. quartet-man wrote:

    #21 absurd. I am single, but I have had opportunities with some women. However, God gives us this thing called a way out to resist temptation. You act like if a man or woman doesn’t have sex they will wither away and die. Christ managed to live a full and productive life without it. He wouldn’t expect us to do something that He couldn’t do Himself when he took on human form.

    As far as my switching. No, if for some strange reason it were reversed in the Bible or something that was verified as being the way it was supposed to be, I would not change. It would mean that I would never be able to have a relationship, but as stated before, people CAN make it. A wife (if you are a man) is a gift from God, but not necessary. Try again.

  25. quartet-man wrote:

    Harry Peters you are so out of bounds. For one, I am not picking on Kirk. I am talking about the sin, let me say that again SIN of homosexuality. Kirk was brought into it before me, and it is as wrong for Kirk to do it as it would be for anyone else or for me to sleep with a woman out of wedlock, or a married woman, or steal, or lie, etc, so on.

    I doubt it is righteous anger, since you are using it against God’s word. I am not passing judgment on Kirk. I am telling what God has to say about the sin of homosexuality. And anyhow. the “thou shalt not judge” line is about as misused as any from the Bible. Keep reading.

    Concerning homosexual acts between animals. No. I don’t think I have witnessed it, thank God. Animals, kill, eat their young, etc. So, should we do that too? What a lame argument. As far as killing, where in the wild. wild west have you gotten kill from? Did anyone say we needed to kill Kirk.

    I am not mistreating Kirk either. When Kirk sent out the email after it was disclosed, it sounded like he was struggling and looking for God’s help in the struggle. I took him at his word and wished the best for him. I still hope he is sincere. I have my own sins to struggle with, but I don’t go around saying they are okay. As far as I know, he isn’t, but I am not around him.

    Your wife’s attraction to the two men is irrelevant. What does that have to do with anything?

    You also need to re-read my post. I never said he was only sorry because he got caught. Those were your words and your mistaken interpretation. What I said was that he would not likely have confessed to us about it had this not happened. I base this on his admitting he struggled with it for over 20 years. From that, it appears the only reason it came out (pun not intended) was due to the extortion attempt. This isn’t to say whether he was or was not struggling with it or was or was not doing it, it is in the fact that it would likely still not be known to us. No, I don’t put my sins on the 5:00 news and I am not saying he had to. The whole line was about wade saying that he came out and confessed his sin. My point is that he confessed it to us as a result of the extortion, not to get it off his chest or ask us for help. Yes, he did do it and yes I give him credit for not lying about it, so in that regard, he did confess, but the extortion attempt was the impetus to getting there. Whether or not he confessed to God before then is not known to me and I am not discussing it. He knows and God knows.

    Then you go on to say that because we have sexual urges, we are powerless to do anything but give into them. That is a lie. So, because child molesters have these urges we are supposed to give them a free pass? You also seem to intimate that God made them this way. Now, I don’t know. I used to say no way, but then I realized after the fall, we are all born in sin with a sin nature. However, God has promised to give us a way out. We don’t have to do them.

    Sexual urges are instinctual and strong. Well maybe some of you thumpers don’t have as healthy a sex life as Harry and Fonda
    Peters. Maybe your testosterone is about a quart low, which would make it easy for you not to sin.

    And once again, I am not putting him down. Read what I am saying. I would say the same thing whether we are talking about Kirk or any other homosexual. I would also say other sins that God says is wrong, are wrong if they are discussed. Even if I have done them. God wrote the rules down. I am the messenger boy in this case.

  26. quartet-man wrote:

    I also want to add that people I know are gay. I am not close friends with any of them, but I wouldn’t be if they weren’t either. One is singing in New York I think. Two were in town singing in a local group with me. One of these two “partners” needed a ride to their home from rehearsal once. I took him. His partner eventually died from aids. I don’t know what happened to him. They had stopped singing in the group long before then and were only there for a short time. I even sat next to them. Either would not have told you that I treated them the least bit bad. So, it looks like you are judging me.

    Now, I never said anything to these two about what they were doing was wrong. I know the one who later died was in church, but don’t know how his church felt about it. The other was supposedly healed from aids and homosexuality. I don’t know as I have no idea where he went. For all I know he is back in Mexico. But, by the same token, had the subject came up I would have said much what I said here, but would also tell them that God can help them whether it be changing their hearts or giving them the strength to not cave in to the temptation.

  27. quartet-man wrote:

    This is in reference to the comment in the open thread. No panic at all here, Doug. May the record show that I never brought it up, but if it does come up I will stand up for the truth.

  28. Joe wrote:

    To Wade and Harry Peters;

    You two are SO far off base here, it is pathetic. You are reasoning from “what is”, and trying to retrofit it into the Bible.

    Sorry guys! The Bible (God’s Word…our Creator, by the way…) says that…

    1. Homosexuality is an abomination, and is unnatural.
    2. It is sin, plain and simple.
    3. It keeps a soul from Heaven. THAT veres has already been quoted here by another “thumper”.
    4. It IS curable. The cure is salvation. Read 1 Cor. 6:11. Being washed by the blood of Christ takes care of this.
    5. It is a choice. Romans 1 states this in the clearest of terms.
    6. All homosexuals were born as a result of the union God intended.
    7. If all of homosexuality were perfectly normal and just another expression of “love” one for another, how long would the human race last?

    You liberals can spout all you want. You are going up against the God of Heaven. You lose.

    And for you who love to quote “let him that is without sin cast the first stone” EVERY time a discussion of this type comes up here, PLEASE be fair to the Lord Jesus and finish His quote.

    He looked the adulterous woman in the eye, and said “go, and sin no more”.

    Your using that Scripture in partiality only, allows for sin of any kind. It is nothing more than a cop-out.

  29. Glenn wrote:

    You guys are sick and I truly pray for a cure. Just another liberal spout.

  30. Leebob wrote:

    Wow….all this over royalties? And I thought I had ADD. I can only imagine listening to a sermon from some of you guys…it would place me in ADD paradise from chasing all the rabbits.

    Since everybody has discussed Kirk…if a sin comes out into the open then yes we are forced to deal with it. Kirk may have struggled with his sin for 20 years privately, this does not mean that he “hid” it. It may very well be that God brought it out in the open to help him deal with it simply from an accountability stand point.

    We ALL struggle with different sins at varying levels. The ones who happen to have their particular struggle brought to the open are the ones who get the “judgement” treatment. Now, that having been said, when yours and my particular sin gets brought out to the open, be prepared. That is when the “being judged with the same judgement” part of Matt 7 comes in to play. That is what I personally believe God is talking about from all that I have read and discerned.

  31. Harry Peters wrote:

    As usual, you commented on the parts that suited you and ignored the rest, although with that many words it is hard to believe. My response: it sure did touch a nerve and to quote Shakespeare (another King James’er) “you do protest too much, me thinks.”

    Harry Peters invited a man living in an openly gay lifestyle and his partner to come to church. One accepted the invitation, the other declined. I visited in their home and we didn’t talk about anything “heavy,” just the mutual appreciation we share for birds. I learned that the partner that had visited our church was a musician and sang well. I invited him to sing in our choir. I will give my choir an A+ because, although he was obviously efeminate, he was accepted into the group. As time passed, he continued to learn. After a year or so, he left the homosexual relationship and has not returned, as far as I know.


    He didn’t stand up in front of the church and beller that he had sinned and was sorry before man. I don’t know how he dealt with the issue with God. It’s his business. What I do know is that he changed for the better.

    How, exactly, would that be displeasing to God?

    Harry Peters has a challenge for you to pray this simple prayer and mean it for one week:

    “God…if you are real, show yourself to me.”

    Up to the challenge, or are you affraid it would revolutionize your understanding of the Gospel?

    The Gosple is “Good News.” My chief complaint with “thumpers” is that when you present the Gospel in such a negative, coercive manner, it leaves people WORSE off than when you found them. In fact, the problem is not that so many people in the United States has not heard of the Gospel. I live in the Bible Belt. The problem is that so many people who have heard the Gospel presented in such a negative way are turned off by the presentation and trying to recover from it.

    Glenn, your post by itself is all the evidence anyone would need to know that: A) You label people B) You are more holy than others C) You are probably insincere. I doubt you spent 30 seconds in prayer about it.

    By the way. . . Jesus was a LIBERAL!

    I’ll also bet that at least 50% of the people in your church will vote for Barack Heussin Obama…maybe even you. What do you think about people who justify and rationalize his views to vote for him?

  32. Joe wrote:

    Harry- I would like some direct answers, please.

    First of all, you take any to task whom you feel are “presenting the gospel in a negative way”.

    The very first recorded word of John the Baptist, preparing the way for the Lord Jesus, was “REPENT!” The very first recorded word of Christ, as He began to preach the gospel, was “REPENT!” They both went directly to the sin of the hearts of individuals, and challenged them on it. You would say that this was a negative approach. You would not practice this. Yet the gospel is full of negatives. Sin. Hell. Eternal banishment from God. Helplessness, Hopelessness. A cross. A terrible death. All of which can be turned to eternal positiveness, but the “negatives” have to be addressed first. No repentance, no salvation.

    Now, here goes. You seem to chime in vociferously every time there is a discussion that deals with sexual issues. Doug has written that he has bounced a number of your posts that we have never seen.

    But just on this thread, you have told us of you and your wife’s sex lives, and the day you prefer for it. No one else here ever uses their full name, addressing themselves in the first person…yet you do it every post, sometimes, several times. As well, you constantly mention your wife’s name. Not a single other poster, to my memory, has ever mentioned their spouses’ name.

    So then…
    1. Why do you always write on sexual threads?
    2. Why do you constantly remind us that your name (if it really is your name) is “Harry Peters”?
    3. And why, if your wife is not only attracted to you, but to other younger gospel singers, is her name “Fonda Peters”?

    Some of us are beginning to smell a rat here….

  33. Cliff Cerce wrote:

    Back on topic.

    The companies that collect royalties for many of the songwriters are starting to scam the very small artists.

    Sometimes, a new artists will just produce 100 copies of his first CD. Under the law, he only is required to pay the royalties for 100 copies.

    But many, if not most, of the companies that collect royalties for the songwriters now only grant a mechanical license for a minimum of 500 copies. That means, in order to get a license, a group must initially pay 5 times the royalty required by the law, even though many young artists will never produce the 500 copies they are paying for - and the companies collecting the royalties know it. In fact, they are counting on it.

    So, they put a guilt trip on a new artist if he doesn’t pay royalties - while sometimes charging 5 times the amount they should.

    The companies say it is because of the cost of handling the paperwork - but give me a break. The artist fills out a form on-line and gets an automatic computer-generated response back in the form of a bill - which he then pays. What expense? There is none. This is a pure scam.

    When I need a tail light for my van and go to WalMart to buy one at the automotive department for a couple of bucks - I hate the fact that I can only get one if I buy a blister pack with two in it. How much more I would hate to have to buy a blister pack with 5 in it!

    This doesn’t really pose a problem for a group like ours, as it would for someone starting out. But this can get ludicrous. Years ago, someone at one of these companies, as I was making arangements to pay royalties on one my early recordings, told me he would send me a icense for 1000 copies - with a bill. Then, I wouldn’t have to “bother” him for re-orders for a while.

    Gee, thanks.

    I brought this to the attention of one of the top watchdogs of our Industry several months ago, informing him that many of these companies just increased their minimum requirement for a mechanical license to 500, from the previous requirement of 300. Though he is a strong advocate that ALL groups should pay mechanicals, his comment was that he would wait until he finally had produced 500 copies - and then get a license. Because, the law does not require an artist to pay more royalties than he is responsible for. And, I suspect, many artists are doing this - or will.

    On the other hand, The Harry Fox Agency will grant a license for as little as 25 copies at the normal 9.1 cents rate - with an additional $15 service fee for all royalty orders that are placed at one given time on one order. This seems more reasonable but, unfortunately, Harry Fox does not represent all songwriters.

  34. nonSGfan wrote:

    Sounds like ole harry might need to move to San Fran and join the movement. You’re a blooming idiot if you invited a homosexual on stage to take part in the worship of a HOLY GOD if he was STILL ACTIVELY INVOLVED in the lifestyle. You think because he stopped the relationship he isn’t homosexual anymore? Did he get saved? did he repent before the church? Did he confess his sins?? OOOH, no, he just stopped the relationship. Maybe you thought he was cute??
    Homosexuality is a sickening, vulgar, perverted, nasty, gross, disguisting, repulsive lifestyle that GOD WILL JUDGE much WORSE than other sins. At age 13 a homosexual man tried to force me into sex with him. YES THATS RIGHT, molestation, attempted rape, whatever you want to call it. You people who say “One sin isn’t greater than another” don’t read your bible very closely. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for homosexuality. The men there were so posessed with this demon, even BLIND they lusted after the angels. You sickening people and your “Homosexuals are people too” bits. OF COURSE they are. OF COURSE Jesus Loves homosexuals. OF COURSE they have souls. OF COURSE they need help. BUT PATTING THEM ON THE BACK AND SAYING YOUR’RE OKAY doesnt help them. Only the TRUTH sets you free. Romans 1 puts Homosexuals in a class with Murderers. God says he “Turns them over”. Or in other words, stops extending his hand of grace through the conscience.
    Sounds like ole harry peters, is a harry moron.

  35. freddyfastbeat wrote:

    Jesus spent time with sinners to minister to them and CONVERT them. Homosexuality is WRONG and IMMORAL! It is so plain and simple. There are no ifs ans or buts about the true word of GOD.

  36. nonSGfan wrote:

    And before you pander about how my own bad experience is the reason for my stand, I worked in a retail store with a homosexual for 3 years and witnessed to him on several occasions and treated him with complete kindness, and FINALLY got the young man to agree to pray. It’s not hatred, it’s FACTS.

  37. quartet-man wrote:

    #31 Shakespeare or not, the thought about protesting too much is overused and stupid. A persons reputation as a person or Christian can be important to people. The more damaging or insulting the charge and the person being insulted can do their best to defend themselves with zest. It is just used as a way to make you feel better about your wrong position and juvenile. It is also a tool to deflect.

    What if you were called a satanist, pedophile, adulterer, murderer or whatever would be insulting and contrary to your religious beliefs? I don’t really care what you personally think, but I will defend against falsehoods, both against the Bible, friends and myself.

    Yes, love can be powerful, but is it love to allow someone to do something that is harmful to themselves and their eternal destiny? Is it love to say okay do what you want and everything will be okay? Is it love to turn a blind eye because you are too chicken to tell them they are in danger?

    With that said, different approaches work with different people and it depends on the motive of the person and how they do it. Sure, coming across hateful and holier than thou will not work. But you can tell them the dangers in a loving way. You can treat them as humans, try to show them a better way while not enabling their behavior.

    On the other hand, sometimes I think people need it spelled out in a firm and direct way with fervor. People marching in gay pride parades spitting on those who object and wanting to silence those who oppose it and who decide to do it anyhow, sometimes might need to be told straight out. (No pun intended.)

    Saying Jesus was a liberal is way off base too.

    As far as how many people in my church vote for Obama, that is between them and God. I don’t base my decisions or convictions on what they do.

    Also, answer on what points have not been responded too.

  38. quartet-man wrote:

    #30 LeestinkingBob, I am discussing the principle about homosexuality. Sure the comment about Kirk was the vehicle, but I also said that I thought at the time that he seemed honest about what happened and never condoned it. I hope that he has overcome it. I wish him no ill. Although there have been some people here who have said mean things about him in other threads, I don’t know that I have seen it on this thread. One problem people have is they tend to defend people they like (which is good), but they condone the wrong things they do because they like them. It is one thing to defend a friend and want the best for them, but it is another to excuse what they do because you like them.

  39. Leebob wrote:

    #33 Cliff…When we came out with our first project, we purposely set out to have 1000 cd’s made because of several reasons. The packaging company and set up was more cost effective than just getting 200 - 500 cds, the shipping was cheaper as a bulk rather than using UPS or Fed-ex, and we didn’t have to worry about sending out more royalties as often. We offset this initial cost by pre-selling cd’s at a reduced rate from what we were going to charge at the table. We ended up pre-selling about 125 cd’s, all of the royalties were paid, we didn’t have to re-order cd’s for awhile, and our fans got to partner with us getting things moving.

    #32 Joe - Thank you for calling HP out. I feel dirty just typing his name.

  40. quartet-man wrote:

    #33 Cliff, I seem to recall that David Bruce Murray just sends a check for the portion he owes and figures they won’t turn the money down even if they expect to be paid for more than they have coming to them.

  41. Blake Edmondson wrote:

    I am constantly amazed at how little “Christians” today regard the Word of God and fear the Lord. To say that everyone should just pat homosexuals on the back and say they’re ok is absurd and not based on the Bible. I for one, believe homosexuality, as well as drug addiction, alchoholism, pedophelia, etc. are forms of demonic possession. I mean, we never see much of the possessions like Jesus saw, and the Bible never says it went away. Nowadays, we see men and women lusting after their own gender. Tell me that’s not demon posession. Luckily Jesus gave us the power to overcome Satan through the blood. I just wonder how long God is going to allow this kinda blasphemy that has gone on to continue. Surely the archangel is preparing his voice and the trumpet is being warmed up, cause soon real judgment will come to this world and aint nobody (pardon my southern english) gonna sit on a chat board and discuss what to do when He comes back. Rev. 21:8 says all sinners will have their place and that includes all who CHOOSE to live in sin and defy God.

  42. nonSGfan wrote:

    right on blakey

  43. quartet-man wrote:

    #38, my bad I should have said “to” at the end not too. :-)

  44. Harry Peters wrote:

    Q-MAN, it’s going to take a while to wade through all of your verbosity and Happy Peters certainly won’t come up short in his response.

    In scanning through it, you took the bait on Obama. A politician can be pro-abortion and temper it with “we should do all that we can to make the number as small as possible” and Democrats who call themselves “Christians” will vote for him. But…as you say, “that’s between them and God.”

    “To him that knoweth to do right and doeth it not; to him it is sin.”

    Does that verse not mean what is says when it comes to politics?

    “Be ye therefore, watchful, for I come in an hour when ye think not.”

  45. Scott wrote:

    Ok, ya’ll, indulge my curiousity.

    #4 states that “I’ve noticed that you allow the same Poster to slam on Kirk Talley continually.”

    I am curious if the person perceived to be slamming might, perhaps, be myself.

    After all, I am the one who has continually asked, “does anyone know if Kirk Talley is still not gay?”

  46. Leebob wrote:

    #38 QSM…I think we are alright. I was talking about the principle as well when it comes to the “judging” thing that people throw out there. I am trying to be the balance between the two extremes on this subject. The “judge not” crowd who thinks we should allow for everything and the “I want to judge everything in the name of what is right” crowd who thinks it is our God given right to drag any adn everybody;s name through the mud. There is a warning in that verse for both sides and plenty of warning about using discernment.

  47. quartet-man wrote:

    #44 HP, my point is that I don’t know what every sin is in other people’s lives, so if people vote for Obama who supports poor things, I cannot stop them. Although I think it wrong they would support a candidate who has a lot of the agenda that Obama has, they aren’t doing the actions or saying they are okay. (Although by voting, they might be helping them to happen.) I disagree with his views on about everything. Now, if they get on a board and say that the things Obama supports aren’t wrong, you can bet I will speak up. Or I would tell Obama himself if he posted here. Big difference. You have proven nothing.

  48. quartet-man wrote:

    #46 LSB (I like the QSM ;-)) I do want to clarify that I am not one who goes up to every person and points out every way they fall short. Far from it. I need to do that to myself first. Pretty much, unless I feel the person doesn’t know what God says about it, or try to say that it is okay when it is brought up, I will likely leave it be. On boards such as these, if such things go unchallenged, there is a huge chance that many would read the post saying it was fine and be mislead because they read it on a “christian board” or even if it is non Christian if they see “Christians” saying it they could use it as an out to justify doing it. You know how easy it is for people to look for the least little bit of permission to do what they want to do instead of seeking God’s word and will.

  49. quartet-man wrote:

    #45, I would say you are in the running if not the guilty party. :-)

  50. quartet-man wrote:

    #44 HP, I won’t be voting for Obama. I pity the country if he wins. However, the Bible doesn’t say voting for him is an abomination. It does say thou shalt not murder (which covers abortion). Your trying to act like I think it doesn’t cover politics is far off base too.

  51. quartet-man wrote:

    I noticed something I accidentally did on #25. Sometimes when I am responding to a long post or one back away, I will paste a part I don’t want to forget to respond to in the post I am making so I can respond point by point. It looks like I didn’t delete Harry’s part about his and the wife’s sexual schedule.

  52. Harry Peters wrote:

    Q-MAN! I think we agree on a couple of things. Harry Peters is not voting for Obama, either. Our views on abortion also seem to be close. The one place we might rub heads (big ones) is in letting people off the hook who say they are voting for the man (In this case Obama) and don’t share his views. As you know, Harry Peters sees lots of gray areas, but for me, voting for someone whose platform stands for the right to choose abortion is enabling the abortionist to perform the murder and therefore, equally guilty.

    And we are all bad enough to bash other Christians…we are the only army in the free world that kills our wounded…but have you heard what Obama’s pastor has been saying?

    Now Q-MAN, I don’t believe that you or I either one could go to this man’s church for 20 years and not know that he had this kind of anti-American and racist agenda.

    Just saying, I don’t always disagree, just to be disagreeable. I think we have some things in common and maybe you can just show old Harry Peters a few things yet.


    #44 should have read “Harry Peters,” not “Happy Peters!” My wife Fonda pointed it out to me and is giving me absolute hell over it. But then she does have that she-devil side to her.

    God Bless!

  53. Leebob wrote:

    #48 QSM…I get what you are saying. When I was in the youth ministry (which I should not have been BTW) the kids would do anything to try to get me to say something was okay as if I approved that was all that mattered. HSP (I just cannot bring myself to spell that one out) may have alot to answer for someday, but then again, won’t we all.

    I too have invited homosexuals to our church but would be the first to ask them to leave our group if it were to come out that they were in fact homosexual. First of all, I would be surprised as two of these guys ar emy brothers and the other one is like a brother to us. That isn’t mean, it is simply that I have to give an accountability to the group that I am in. Pastors have to give an accountability for the church that they are pastoring. You get the picture. Those that have not reached out and have simply spread hate will one day have to give an account for their lack of compassion. Most people already know how bad their sin is. They will flaunt it just to get your ire. I would recomend to the likes of NGSF to sometimes pull a surprise on them and not get up in arms or in their face unless they begin to hit on you.

  54. quartet-man wrote:

    #52 HP, Personally, I feel that voting for someone whose agenda is abortion, is condoning it and I personally would feel as if I were aiding it, so I can’t do it. There are two different theories I am about to share and I understand both. One is to not vote for either candidate when there is no proper choice and the other is to vote for the least objectionable choice (the lesser of two evils approach.)

    As far as shooting our wounded, I have heard that before and know that it happens. However, dropping the standards is no the answer and not calling people out who are still in it isn’t either. Now those who are really trying to overcome it or who may not realize that they are doing wrong might need the less in your face approach. Those who have fallen, but are repentant and are forgiven do not need to have it held against them forever either. But, it does take a while to earn trust back again (especially pastors, musicians etc.) This is also true if a spouse cheats on the other. Michael English did get a lot of heat for what he did. Part of it was his fault (not even just for doing it, but in his actions afterward.) In other ways the attitude might have caused him to say forget it and contributed to his doing more things. However, he also I think initially wanted welcomed back with open arms and yet continue on with Marabeth. My understanding is that Smitty and Lowry and a few others showed Christian love to him instead of writing him off, which was great, but there is a fine line in doing that and condoning it. I think they probably had it about right. Show support, and Christian love, but not condone what he did or maybe wanted to do. Others in Michael’s life either didn’t tell him what he needed to hear because they were embarrassed, didn’t want to make waves or hurt his feelings, or afraid to lose their “friendship” with him. All of these were selfish and ended up hurting him I think. I only brought him up because his situation is well known and I believe that he is in the right place now. I had tears in my eyes when I read his book at God’s goodness and how He has worked in his life.

    I agree about Obama’s pastor. It seems nearly impossible that he only preached those things in recent times or that Obama had never heard them. He only stood against him after it started costing him votes IMHO.

    I saw your typo you mentioned when I went back through the posts earlier too. :-)

  55. quartet-man wrote:

    #53 LSB, I agree that compassion is great. The thing is allowing them to continue in their sin is not compassionate. However, as I stated earlier, different approaches seem to work with different people. Some if show n too much attitude do like Michael English did and think in so many words “up yours” and do not respond well. Others take love and overlooking their sin as condoning it and see no reason to change because you are making it easy on them. I think the first approach works more often with the Christian person who wants to keep on sinning and the second with the unsaved who needs to be shown God’s love before they are criticized too much or at least be told in a direct, but loving manner.

  56. Harry Peters wrote:

    Q-Man! I think I understand where you are coming from. Old Harry Peters can be a little rough around the edges and Fonda says I sometimes play the role of the “devil’s advocate to the extreme” but in this moment, that is not what this is about. At this moment I want to recognize you as a “thinking man” and if we have differences from time to time (which seems highly likely) lol…I’d welcome you to be my brother. I know that God hates sin and loves the sinner. I just can’t bring myself to that level. I am constantly trying to turn from my sin, but the more I do, the more sympathy I feel for those who are having an even more difficult struggle than I am. I’ve always been one to pull for the underdog…and I’d like to see the Gospel shared in such a way that it would put all of the focus on Jesus and what He has done for us…with the hope and prayer that Jesus died for the best of us (not me) and the worst of us (which I am likely chief).

    Anyway, Q-Man…your reasoned, thoughtful response touched this hard old scaley heart of “happy” —nahhhh—Harry Peters. :-)

  57. NonSGfan wrote:

    two words.

    Tony Gore.

  58. NonSGfan wrote:

    juuuuust jokin peeps.

  59. quartet-man wrote:

    #56, thanks Happy, I mean Harry. :) It sounds like we often want the same thing, but have different ideas on how to get there. I too will fight for the underdog assuming they are in the right or are being victimized. When I was a kid, my sister was bullying on a neighborhood kid. I intervened and swung her around and broke her glasses. I thought for sure I was going to get it for that one as we really couldn’t afford the $20.00 for new frames. Then not too much later, another neighborhood boy was bullying her and I made mincemeat of him. :-)

    I also know that the written word can be hard to know the person’s heart. Looking at comments like mine without knowing the tone, feelings behind them or know my other views could come across as being holier than thou or lacking compassion etc, but those are far from the truth. :-)

  60. FormerDJ wrote:

    #50… so is the death penalty

  61. quartet-man wrote:

    #60 I don’t believe it is. There is a difference in murder (the true word used in thou shalt not) and killing. Otherwise, war wouldn’t be possible etc. and God did approve of certain wars.

  62. Joe wrote:

    The “life for a life” edict of Leviticus and Deuteronomy seems to have never been rescinded, even through the NT.

    Christ never taught against the death penalty. Neither did the NT writers.

    In fact, Jesus submitted to capital punishment without a word. The death He died has been called the cruelest form of capital punishment man has ever devised for fellow-man. So too, did almost all of the apostles, except John. Burned at the stake, stoning, beheading, being crucified upside down- they all submitted to capital punishment.

    To say that this is against Scripture, is simply wrong.

  63. quartet-man wrote:

    62. Great post, Joe.

  64. Harry "Happy" Peters wrote:

    None of you guys are affraid to take on the tough issues! Harry Peters has always believed that human life is sacred and sanctified. By “sanctified,” I mean set apart by God as something very special. I realize that there is probably no political party to align this with, but after careful though, for me, it comes down to issues that are too tough for me to judge. I believe that life begins at conception and that it has great value to God and find evidence that supports that in the Psalms as well as the words of Jesus. Therefore, I am opposed to abortion because it amounts to the taking of a life that is sanctified by God.

    I don’t expect many people on this site would find that reasoning shocking and many would probably agree with me.

    Capital punishment is also “taking a human life.” Although I can really appreciate the difference in the meaning of words, i.e. “murder” vs. “kill,” I view Capital punishment resulting in the taking of a human life that was sanctified by God and is special to God, also.

    If it were proven beyond certainty that human life did not begin until the third trimester of pregnancy, Harry Peters would still be against abortion. My reason is, since I can’t be certain, I can be sure that if no abortion occurs, there can be no murder.

    Although I understand all of the arguments many Christians use to justify capital punishment, once again, I cannot be certain that it is not also the taking of human life that was set apart as special by God. Therefore, if there is no capital punishment, there can be no murder.

    Am I soft on crime? I don’t think I am. I believe that for horrible, unspeakable evil, society should be protected by incarcerating evil doers. No possibility of parole–ever.

    One of the problems I have with capital punishment is that DNA is now proving on a daily basis how many “INNOCENT” people have been convicted of crimes and sent to prison and in some cases sentenced to death. How horrible it would be to kill an innocent, be it a “fetus” or a “convict.”

    Also, because something is permissible, does not always mean that it is the right thing to do. I know all of us have probably done things that are permissible, but that in our heart of hearts we knew wasn’t the best thing we could have done. God knows I have.

    Harry Peters does see #60 (Former DJ)’s point and as I have laid it out, I happen to agree with you. I hope that others will not think it un-Christian of me.

    The Bold bottom line for Harry Peters is: Either human life is special, sacred, sanctified and set apart by God or it isn’t. Old Harry Peters is not smart enough to split the hairs and know with certainty. Therefore, I am going to ere on the side of life in both instances. No Abortion–No Capital Punishment.

    #60, I think I sensed some feeling of disappointment with Christians in your short post. Please know this. God’s family is LARGE….there are Christians who have the same views that you do and who see the same inconsistencies that you do. Look for a group of brothers and sisters that you can share this journey of life with.

    None of us are perfect. The only perfect one who ever lived was a casualty of capital punishment. You could have the view that Churches are full of hypocrits and you don’t want to be around them. If that’s the case for God and Harry Peter’s sake, don’t go to a ball game or concert. They are full of hypocrits, too.

    Does any of it ring true? We are an imperfect people, in an imperfect world. If we call on the name of the Lord, we will not be cast aside and once we have pierced the veil of this life, we will journey on and experience the perfect world in heaven with Jesus.

    God loves us all very much and does not want to lose a single one of us.


  65. Joe wrote:

    Sorry again, Harry-

    The same God, Who, as you say, “sanctified human life”, also made it very clear that HE wanted “a life for a life”. That was His decree, and He has NEVER rescinded that.

    As for abortion, I agree with you totally, that life begins at conception. A human soul is formed at that moment.

    I am a medical doctor. I have been in practice for over 31 years. I have never performed an abortion, nor referred a woman for one. Nor will I ever to each.

    But, abortion is law. And the Word of God says “submit yourselves to EVERY ordinance (law) of man for the Lord’s sake…” So what would God have in mind for allowing such a horrible legal act as abortion? What “sake” might HE have in it all?

    EVERY ONE of these tiny aborted souls will be in Heaven forever. With glorified bodies. And glorified voices. Singing in Heaven’s choir- praising the Lamb. Every one. Some Christians get so involved trying to save them for a dying world, they lose sight of the fact that the awesome and omnipotent God might just have a plan in all of this abject sinfulness of mankind.

    He’s harvesting little innocent souls for Heaven, forever. Literally tens of millions will be there, that never had a chance to grow up in unwanted homes, or to be abused, or to end up on drugs, or to be riddled with human disease, or any other number of sorrows. THEY WILL ALL BE IN HEAVEN!

    And I am going to be there too, only because a selfless Savior submitted to capital punishment, for me. A life for a life. As the Talley’s sing so well….”HIS life for mine!”

  66. Rick wrote:

    I want to thank several of you for helping me to make up my mind. I’ve been waffling on the dichotomy between my sexuality and my desire to remain in the church for a long, long time. I don’t know why I am gay. I don’t care why. I am tired of the hateful attitudes of many who call themselves Christians, including some who post on this site. I have done many things I regret and have repented for. My sexuality is not one of those things. Goodbye to this site. Goodbye to the church and goodbye to those of you who are comfortable in your self-righteous robes holding your stones of hypocritical condemnation.

  67. Wade wrote:

    Rick do not leave… we are not all bad. I hope you have read my post. Would enjoy hearing more of your insights. Thanks for having the courage to speak out. God Bless You!!!

  68. quartet-man wrote:

    #66 Rick, I don’t know if you are real, or someone messing with us, but I will go ahead and presume you are sincere and give this a shot. There is no hatred for gays in my heart and I have said that time and time again. Is it hatred to warn people who are doing things God says will send them to hell, that they shouldn’t do them? If that is your definition of hate, then I guess I hate, but it is not the true definition.

    I have also said that being gay and being an active gay are two different things and that is all I will say about it at this moment.

    Homosexuality is a struggle as is any other temptation in my opinion. I had never thought of it being demons, and I don’t know that. It is what we do with the temptation.

  69. Rick wrote:

    #68, I am very sincere. I am not trying to “mess” with anyone.

    #67, Wade, I have read your posts and appreciate your words very much. But I am just so very tired of trying to swim upstream against the majority of the church. I know not everyone feels the same way as those who always seem to want me to feel “less than” as a Christian because of something I did not choose. I’m sorry, but I need a rest from this fight.

  70. Wade wrote:

    Rick… God Bless ya I understand… I have to take a break from this site and some of the dogma that gets rolled out on ppl.

    If being gay sends you to hell I know alot of people that will bust hell wide open. I know the verses that get twisted around here to make ppl feel that way. But I feel that it is no more a sin to be gay than a person who commits a multitude of other sins. Drinking, messing with women and GOSSIPING which Lord knows hell will be full of alot of us on this site.

    I think many of the ppl that feel that way think you need to be SAVED many times and Jesus was not good enough to make it happen the first time by his good grace.

    If that is the standard we all need to confess of all our sins the second before we die.

    Like Aaron Wilburn say… God Love their hearts!!!

  71. quartet-man wrote:

    Let me try this analogy, Rick. Imagine a child not wanting to take medicine, but without it will die. The child can scream and moan that taking the medicine tastes awful, is not pleasurable and if the parents loved them they would not give it to them, but what would be the best thing for the parent to do?

  72. Harry "Happy" Peters wrote:


    I cannot imagine the pain and disappointment you must feel and I offer my apology on the behalf of others who do not even realize what they are doing.

    Rather than hang it up, try hanging out at a different church. From experience, I can suggest that there are many United Methodist and Episcopal churches who would be welcoming to you and not trying to “fix” you. They may not sing SGM. God knows Harry Peters HATES the music at his own church. All we have is a half dozen screachers and an old, out of shape organist that looks like Uncle Fester from the Adams family. What has worked for me is to worship God with and among people that I see sharing my journey with me….and you know, not a single one of them has ever asked me if I was gay or heterosexual.

    Now Rewind almost 20 years. Those of you who post a lot on here know of my wife, Fonda Peters. Fonda was an independent baptist. When we became serious about marriage, Fonda’s mother, a holier than thou, sunday school teachin, typical gossipin, “good Baptist Christian,” started rumors that Harry Peters was gay. You KNOW how that went over in an Independent Baptist Church, so I won’t ellaborate. At the same time, she was telling other people in her “prayer group” that Harry Peters was the greatest fornicator in the world and that I had broken up a woman’s marriage who had 3 children. This created such a buzz in a very LARGE Independent Baptist Church, that the pastor (God love and bless his soul) came to visit me. Although he never told me this himself, I learned that after our talk, he went privately to the prayer group and told them that if they did not stop using the “prayer group” as a weapon, he would have no choice but to ask them to leave the church.

    What the hardliners on this site do not realize is that they are trashing people who are in their closest circle of friends, family and church. Yes, gay people are everywhere. It won’t make you feel much better, but some of these same people saw Martin Luther King Jr as a trouble maker and thought Rosa Parks SHOULD have been in the back of the bus. Thank God, much of that is changing, but when it comes to suffering, you are in good company.

    NOW to the rest of you….HARRY PETERS MUST MAKE A HARD STATEMENT! You are losing precious souls by your approach. For the sake of argument, if you were right in your self-righteousness, would you hope to be helpful to someone like this dear man by trying to run him away from the church and his faith? How is that Godly?

    The Oak Ridge Boys used to have a song with a lyric, “reach out and touch a hand; make a friend when you can.” OH–that’s right– the HTT’s (Holier Than Thous) ran them out of SG music because they weren’t “Godly” enough. Funny that my all-time favorite CAT’S invited them to their Farewell Tour Taping with B—I—-L—L G—A—-I—-T—-H—E—-R.

    Shame on Us!

  73. Harry "Happy" Peters wrote:

    Dr. Joe: Thank God you are not Harry Peters doctor! I’d prefer one whose brain had not been removed by a fellow medical student in med school.

    Your logic is so twisted and convoluted that it smells like smoke from the pit of hell to me. It actually sounds like you are trying to justify voting for Barack Huessin Obama or some other pro-death democrat…after all abortion is legal…and we can’t touch that.

    So…applying your lack of logic, all anyone need do is get enough people to go along with them to make the wrong of their choice a law…and after that, it’s in God’s hands and we have no reason to challenge it.

    Harry Peters would like it better if you keep your head in the sand. First off, you can’t spout off absurdities and second, we won’t be exposed to the gore of seeing the hole in your head where your brain was taken out. I hope it is pickled and someone is getting good out of it somewhere.

  74. NonSGfan wrote:

    Rick, IF you’re truly homosexual, you need to find some role models that have conqured this spirit, and follow their example. Donnie Mcclurkin, for one, may be one to give great advice on the subject.

  75. Joe wrote:


    The simple difference between us is that you are thinking horizontally, and I am thinking vertically.

    I said abortion is murder. I said I have never nor will ever have anything to do with one.

    But it IS law. You may thank Harry Blackmun for his deciding vote, on 22 Jan. 1973. Since then, the estimate (US only) is 50 million abortions.

    A horrible statistic. But when you look at it through Heaven’s eyes, 50 million out of 50 million are in Heaven.

    That is a far better percentage than seeing people saved through preaching the gospel.

    The great commission for us is to preach the gospel. Period. Not to stamp out abortion. Not to change laws the ways we want them. Not to pick political candidates. Not to save redwoods or snail darters at all costs. We are to see people saved for Heaven.

    And THAT, is exactly what God is doing here. Through a horrible and awful law, countless millions are being saved for Heaven.

    Is it a great human loss? Absolutely. Is it a wonderful Heavenly gain?

    It all depends if you think horizontally, or vertically.

  76. Wade wrote:

    Hey Happy Harry Peters… great post… with Dr. Joe’s thinking… there are states that are legalizing same sex unions… that will soon be OK… because it’s law. LoL;-)) Yeap he’s Obama all the way!!!

    But at least he is in the closet about it with the door cracked. I honestly believe the reason some of these folks so freak out about being gay is because when the question is asked if they could switch some of them could and they think EVERYBODY can!!

  77. cynical one wrote:

    So, if I follow the logic here on the policital topic (that has somehow evoloved from royalty payments), as a Bible-believing Christian, I should not, in good conscience, vote for someone who wants to keep abortion legal and take away our assault weapons. Neither should I vote for a candidate who doesn’t want to take care of the sick, poor, and aged, and wants to kill the environment.

    Who’s left?

  78. Alan wrote:

    This has been alluded to, but let me try to jump in here. I believe that every person is born with a sin nature. The Bible states this clearly, and I don’t think that’s controversial. How it comes to be, forgive me, but I just don’t know - but it would appear to me that some peoples’ sin nature leads them to a propensity to gamble. Others’ sin nature appears to give them a predelection to alcoholism, some to intense anger in their interpersonal relationships, etc. When it comes to human sexuality, I think we’d agree that the majority are heterosexual and a minority have the pull of the sin nature to homosexuality. I’ve talked at length with people who have the sin nature of homosexuality. They are fairly unanimous in telling me that from their first sexual stirrings, their only attraction has been to members of the same sex. That’s what has led me to the potential belief that it’s tied to our sin nature. I have also detected that the environment in their upbringing may have exacerbated - or influenced to some degree - their own sin nature. Am I all wet here?

    I have had some dear friends through the years who never married. Their life attitude was that this was God’s will for them, and they had to obey Him, although this surely wouldn’t have been their own first choice. I admire them for honoring God in their celibacy. As far as I know, these folks’ sin nature would have led them to heterosexual sin, had they chosen to indulge in it. That their own professions, witnessed by how amazingly God has used them, is that they never indulged in those sins, is a thing that I - and the Lord - greatly admire. I know professing Christians, riddled with guilt and a loneliness that I can’t imagine, who have struggled all of their lives with a sin nature that leads them to homosexual desires. I wonder if, since they have never yielded to it, I should admire them even more greatly
    than I admire those who haven’t yielded to a heterosexual sin nature…but I do.
    I’ve seen the agony in their faces and heard it in their words.

    And then, there is the subject of those who have that sin nature, and have given in to it. Kirk Talley has been the poster child for it here. When the news came out, I wrote him an e-mail that same day. I’ve shaken his hand, but I don’t know him. I told him that day that he would be in my ongoing prayers, and that I would pray for him to claim God’s unconditional forgiveness, and one day be able to rise above that sin nature that he had struggled with for so long. I never heard from him, nor did I expect to. I still pray for him.

    God names many sins. All of us bear our own temptations. I have mine, and if we’re honest, everyone reading this has yours. They may differ, but the end result is the same. We all need to be saved from both the power and penalty of sin. A sovereign God could have removed our old fallen nature and just superimposed His new nature in us at the moment of salvation, but He chose not to. We now possess two natures, of course - and all too often, the old fallen sin nature takes precedence over our new nature. It happens all too often on this site, in fact.

    Since we all succumb to our old nature all too often, do we dare use this as a club over others? Sin is sin, and while we tend at times to judge everyone except ourselves, we need to be careful. We might put degrees on sin that God doesn’t. Remember that of the seven abominations that the Lord hates, we read in Proverbs 6:17 that leading the list is “A proud look”. We dare not look down on anothers sin in pride, when we have our own to deal with. And yet, in Romans 1, as has been mentioned, it does indeed to appear that in the downward helix of sin, homosexuality is one that God particularly despises; perhaps because it’s a reversal of His creative order. We cannot in any way minimize that particular sin. We’re being systematically eroded in our hatred of all sin, every day, everywhere we turn. The saddest occasions of all are when we’re blinded to our own.

    Abortion is the ultimate manifestation of our blindness to a God Who is, has always been, and always will be. As Dr. Joe said, earth’s massive loss is Heaven’s equally massive gain. It is the ultimate selfish indulgence in a sin nature left unchecked.

    Please tell me if I’m way off-base here, will you? Sorry for such a long post; the longest I’ve ever written by far. I hope only to interject a possible cause for an extremely sensitive subject.

  79. Blake Edmondson wrote:

    I’ll make one last comment on this subject. Rick, the problem is (as you have admitted)that you can do nothing about your sexuality. That is completely true. I couldn’t do anything about my lust, envy, temper, etc. until I met Jesus. He is the only one who can free you from your bondage. And all of you who are saying it is God’s will for a man to be tempted like that have never read 1 Cor 10:13. It is NOT God’s will for you to suffer Rick. God has all power and can free you from your bondage and make you a new man. You must decide whether you want to change. If you don’t, based on the word of God, you’ll face eternity in Hell. But, I can also promise you the joys of Heaven far outweigh the pleasures you now find in your “sexuality.” Read Romans 8:18.
    Folks, this is the message we need to send to the world. There is still a God who can change rotten sinners. The problem is not with homosexuality/alchoholism/etc., the problem is with SIN and the sinful nature of mankind. Only through the redeeming power of Jesus’ own blood can one overcome their sin. Let’s stop trying to pat EVERYONE on the back and saying they are OK. “There is none righteous, no not one.” No sin is ok, all are wrong, and we must repent and try to live free from ALL sin.

  80. Harry Peters wrote:

    Dr. Joe,

    Are you saying that you are at a conventional, stage four level of moral development?

  81. TiredoRepetition wrote:

    This BS is one of the biggest reasons I got out of SG when I did.

    Pipe down.

  82. Harry Peters wrote:


    If you are still around and would like to talk with someone who promises not to judge you, respond to this post and I will share my private email address with you.

    God loves you and so do I.

    Harry Peters