Open thread

I’ll be an absentee landlord for the next several days, what with the fall term starting soon and a hurricane coming. It’d be super if the homosexual panic that erupted from a post about paying royalties didn’t spread to this thread.

There’s plenty of other stuff to talk about: “Get Away Jordan” went gold. Anthony Burger videos have snagged some awards too. Canaan’s first big release of new product is out (I’m especially eager to hear the Mike Lefevre album). Jacob Kitson tries again to get that “Little is Much” ending (with only slightly better results; much can be little too, I guess … warning: camera work may cause motion sickness). I’m henceforth calling conversations like (via DBM) these asymptotal discussions: threads full of comments that approach some sort of point without ever really touching it (there’s plenty of asymptotalism around here too, of course). And NQC is only a month away. Who thinks fuel prices and the general economic malaise will affect attendance, on either side of the stage?

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  1. mat wrote:

    Anybody know how Danny Funderburk is doing? Is he singing?
    What about Rick Strickland???

  2. Mike McIlwain wrote:

    I have a friend who moved to middle Tennessee last month. She said that Danny Funderburke was supposed to sing at a church in her area either this weekend or last weekend.

  3. JEB wrote:

    I saw Danny in Winston-Salem, NC mid-June. He is singing well. I understand he does quartet dates one weekend a month (Danny Funderburk and Mercy Way) and solo the other weeks.

    I especially enjoyed the old class - The Unseen Hand.

    Don’t know about Strickland.


  4. Steven wrote:

    I believe, if the website is still correct, rick strickland is singing with the American Quartet. He may be doing some solo work also

  5. Diana wrote:

    Here’s another Greater Vision video with Jacob Kitson:

    “Little Is Much” starts around 1:39. It sounded great to me!

  6. BUICK wrote:

    Since this is an open thread, I want to ask something I’ve wondered about for a few years now:

    I think I recall that when the Cats were moving toward retirement and L5 was being formed, that the first announcement about L5 indicated that Scott, Roger and Ernie would all be involved. The next thing I knew, there was L5 and EHSSQ.

    Am I mis-remembering? If not, was there ever an announcement about why EH was not going to be with L5?

    The two groups certainly have distinctively different sounds and there is clearly a place in SGM for both. But I’ve often pondered those earliest announcements.

  7. Irishlad wrote:

    Hey Doug,you starting to make words up now?Asymptotal and asymptotalism?? If i follow your drift about things(lines and curves) not meeting, i was sure the word was asymptotic or asymptotical.Then again i could be getting my lines crossed.

  8. Irishlad wrote:

    Buick#6. Thinking back on the time(i travelled over for the 96 and 97 nqc)i believe EH wanted to be the top cat in the outfit but couldn’t because he had the redoubtable Roger and his trusty lieutenant Scott to deal with,so two against one proved too much.Didn’t stop him in the end however.

  9. gc wrote:

    Hosted the Isaac’s last night and they were very good. Incredible talent and very easy to work with. I was very impressed with their helpful spirit.

  10. An...anon........sec wrote:

    #6, the way I remember it is that Ernie was never a part of the forming of Legacy Five. There were lots of rumors around about what would happen with the remaining Cathedrals members. Ernie sent out an email at the time saying he was asked why he was not a part of their plans. He said he wasn’t asked and that Scott and Roger knew how much he had worked on developing his solo career. He said they had talked it out after the fact.

  11. TonyWatson wrote:

    BUICK - I never heard anything about Ernie ever going with Roger and Scott. Maybe it was the wording or an article or something, saying that Ernie, Roger, and Scott all have their plans to do something or something like that.

  12. SH wrote:

    You can view Danny’s concert schedule at He usually updates it month-to-month.

  13. matt wrote:

    I don’t know about Ernie and his plans etc after the Cathedrals. Like somebody else said, both groups are very different, and there appears to be room for both to succeed. I assume that they all must have got along and worked well together in the Cathedrals, as they (EH,RB, SF) were in it for about 10 years together.

    What I am wondering is about the reputation that the Cathedrals have/had. They were/are my favourite group, so I hold them in high esteem. However, I have yet to read anything negative about them or their ethics or anything like that. With all the smearing that goes on on this site, and perhaps others, it seems interesting that I haven’t read anything negative about the Cathedrals. I know they are retired for awhile, and some have passed on. Maybe thats why.

    I’d like to thnk that they truly had a great rap.

  14. msh wrote:

    Cathedrals are very missed. So are the Martins and the Crabb FAmily. How cool would it we were going to NQC to see the Goodmand, Rambos, Hinsons, Oak Ridge Boys (1971) and the Speer Family.

    It would settle for NQC line up of Cathedrals, Isaacs, Martins, Crabb Family? Guess I am 10 or 12 years late.

    You can’t always get what you want!! I guess I will stay home.

  15. Tad Kirkland wrote:

    Remember LV started immediately after the Cats retirement. Ernie was solo for a couple of years before starting SS. Maybe that was strategically planned to avoid any of these questions. I do think it’s obvious that they had/have different visions for their groups.

    Does anyone have any word on Jerry Thompson these days?

  16. David Bruce Murray wrote:

    Ernie was pushing his solo ministry before the Cats retired. The word when they retired was that George and Glen were coming off the road, Ernie planned to step up his solo career to full time, and Roger and Scott were going to form a new quartet.

    I remember there being questions as to why Ernie wasn’t joining Scott and Roger’s venture, and these were addressed at the time. However, I never got the impression that he was ever considered to be part of L5.

    Scott and Roger had been business partners for a number of years with their studio, so it just made sense for them to continue to work together.

    L5 has been around several years longer than EH&SSQ. Their plans were known as the Cats retired and the big question was who would fill the other three spots.

    When the Cats retired, Ernie sang solo while George was on a hiatus of a few months. Old Friends Quartet formed next with George, Jake, Ernie, and Wesley Pritchard. Garry Jones typically played piano for Old Friends whenever they appeared in concert, but I don’t believe he was pictured on the CDs. After that was over, Ernie and Garry formed Signature Sound. Then THEY parted ways (with Jones taking Shane Dunlap with him), and you have the SSQ of today.

  17. BUICK wrote:

    Thanks all. I suspect between and among you all you have answered my question and all the pieces of information can easily be correct and fit into one picture of what may have happened.

    As to the reputation of the Cats, I’ve never heard anything but good about George, Glenn and almost all of the people who shared the stage with them over a very long and storied career. I PRAY that no one takes this as an opportunity to begin making up feces to throw at the Cats in hopes that something sticks.

  18. Kyle wrote:

    Ernie seemed to be working toward a solo career, ala Kirk Talley or Ivan Parker. He released several solo projects (two with Daywind and a few independently). The next thing I knew, he was singing with George in the Old Friends. I assumed that was a limited deal, as Ernie was still doing solo dates (it was). After a little while longer as a soloist, Ernie announced his plans to form a group with Garry Jones….which became Signature Sound.

  19. Leebob wrote:

    I have never heard anything negative in regards to George or Glenn. It seems they managed to stay above the fray. I have heard rumors of other members (pre EH, RB, and SF) purposely “rigging” the sound to mess up an opening group from several different sources. Enough so that it would indicate that this was possibly the case.

    Has anybody else heard of this practice from them or any other national group.

  20. quartet-man wrote:

    #10, I might still have that email newsletter (if that is it) or else it was on a message board, but I do think it was probably in an email. I seem to remember the impression I got from Ernie’s comment was that Ernie may have been a little hurt about not being asked. He never said, and I might be reading too much into it, but he said something about meeting with them, clearing the air and that he thought they would do well and wished them well. At least that is how I remember it.

    Then, when Old Friends started (I think) he said how much he had missed group singing and how he could do both. Then after Old Friends stopped, he and Garry started Signature Sound. Then some time later Garry left and Shane did as well. Ernie said that he and Garry had different ideas on the direction or maybe running of the group (in so many words) and that it was better to dissolve the partnership then earlier on and that Shane had similar ideas as Garry so he would go too. I think he also complimented Garry and said whatever he (and maybe Shane) did would be good and that he wished them well. I also think he commented about them dividing and reaching more people.

  21. Greg wrote:

    Danny Funderburk and Mercy’s Way was recently at our church. He has a lot of health problems but he is still singing well. I saw him at the “Night to Remember” concert in Spartanburg, SC as well.

    The Martins are touring on a limited basis. They were in our church in June. They sounded fantastic! They’re working on a new project and have already recorded several songs.

  22. Irishlad wrote:

    #Yes Leebob, JD did it years ago when a rival qt were tearing the house down.He just walked down the hall and ripped their sound cable out which of course ruined the set. Bad but necessary(he thought away).

  23. J wrote:

    Both C’s…the Couriers and the CAT’s. Eveything from personal behavior to business was always ethical and straight up!

  24. DEB wrote:

    Is Mitchel Jon still singing? I saw where he and Dave mcvay were singing some with Poet Voices but Mitch’s web site is not updated. Who is with Poet Voices now. Anybody know?

  25. Cat's Fan wrote:

    OK for you Cat’s lover like myself. Here ya go… the real truth.

    I promoted several dates with the Cat’s. George & Glen were THE BEST to work with. One time when the crowd did not show like we all wanted they even gave me a break on the flat. They never complained or wanted to go first or last or wanted the best place for their table. Just wished every one else was so easy to work with.

    L-5 NEVER wanted EH… EH is a pain in the butt to work with. Anybody that wears that much make up is never a pleasure. EH is also pretty tough to work with if you are in a group and have ANY IDEAS that do not match his. Thus why L-5 & Garry Jones went on to do their own thing. [edit] I have to say on a positive light that EH works hard @ his craft. He was always good at putting butts in the seats. He would work his email list to get ppl there when some groups NEVER do anything beyond putting it on their site.

    As far as rigging sound, the Kingsmen were always the best at this. Nobody ever wanted to use their sound system if they were a touring group also and remember a concert where there were 3 different systems and 4 drum kits on stage for a 4 group concert.

    But I enjoyed working with the Kingsmen. Back in the day the Kingsmen & Rex Nelon Singers still hold the record for the most money my high school Key Club ever raised in ONE EVENT and that was 25 years ago.

    This ( rigging sound) has become much better now. The groups seem to work well together and if one groups sound is used they usually have a member present through out the entire concert. Plus the way the sound is so modular today most of the time they all just share speakers & subs now. They all roll their cabinet out with their band in it!!LoL. Their board & amps are all neatly in the same cabinet with the band. lol

    Garry Jones is great to work with as far as putting on an event. Ivan can be a pain but not in the same Diva type way EH is.

    I could go on and on. But I can say as someone who has put several thousand dollars in their pockets I have a good base of experience. I won’t say I have had the best groups in the world BACK me up on stage like some posters have. I just pay them.

    It would be interesting to hear the experiences of some others.

    Ya ever wonder why L-5 & EHSSQ do not do more dates together??? Ever wonder why you have never seen a Gold City Reunion with BF??? Ya ever wonder why BF & IP left GCQ @ The Same Time???

    Who have you guys worked with that was easy in their dealings & good at putting butts in seats???

  26. JM wrote:

    Back in the day, I was associated with a PA based quartet, which had a degree of regional following. We put together a Spring show each year and always called upon the Cathedrals as our “big draw.” They were good businessmen; however, both Glen and George were always more concerned about their message and outreach. They consistently were concerned with our financial stress and would have taken less than the flat, if it would have placed us in a difficult position. They were good Christian colleagues and mentors. I will always consider them the finest group of all time, for their music…for their message…for their Christian concern.

    Then…there are the “others!” In attempting to bring SGM to a less cultured area of the great North and despite great marketing efforts, we “took a bath” on a program that featured a well known SGM group. They did next to nothing to promote the concert, but offered no concession when the turnout was something less than disappointing. It should be noted that they had no obligation to cut their flat; however, their lack of advertising and their modest set time (about 45 minutes) reflected their lack of sensitivity and mutual respect. I could recall stories of groups who chased concert producers down hallways and out into fields to insist upon their take…in cash! However, what’s the point? Undoubtedly, you reap what you sow. But, it’s also why Glen and george will always hold a position of reverence in my personal pantheon of SGM heroes!

  27. Jake wrote:

    Well, surprise, surprise, surprise.

    It sounds like some of the SG artists get along with each other the way that (ahem) some of get along here on averyfineline.

    I guess that means they are in good company. (Or does it mean we are the ones in good company?)

    Who’d a ever thunk?

  28. John Masters wrote:

    At the risk of being dragged outside the city and stoned to death, can I suggest that we find another subject to over discuss? The whole Cathedral Quartet thing is getting really tired and old. I have never heard so much yapping about an over-rated group in all my days! Sure, you have to give them credit for stunning success (thanks to Gaither) in the last few years, but for heaven’s sake, even Glen and George would be tired of hearing about the glorification every insignificant belch that they made! The plethora of spin-off groups that came from the Cathedrals all put together can’t equal George and Glen. So can we just listen to the old records and let them rest in peace? Please?

  29. Leebob wrote:

    #28 John Masters has just addressed a golden calf on the avery website. May the Lord watch over your soul and ego during the next 37 posts!

    I do disagree with the Gaither comment. He had very little to do with their success.

  30. quartet-man wrote:

    John, the Cathedrals were a great group and I would say in the eighties and nineties were one of the top groups. When it comes to favorite male quartets, here are my picks. The Oak Ridge Boys, The Cathedrals (especially with Danny and Mark, but I still liked them until the end), Gold City, The Gaither Vocal Band, The Singing Americans (with Funderburk and English or Parker, and Strickland with English was good too.) The Sound (the group on the first lp. I don’t know if that particular group cut any others or not), and The Stamps (I really liked the group with Baize, Donnie, Ed Enoch and Richard Sterban with J.D. added sometimes the best, but there were others too.) The Imperials had some good groups too.

    So, I am enjoying reading this and talking about it. I agree that the groups that sprung from the Cathedrals aren’t nearly as good, but they are young. Even so, they may never get there. I also know there are those who prefer the previous versions better and those who wouldn’t put them in the same league as the Statesmen or Blackwoods, but I prefer listening to the Cats and the ones I mentioned. I also like the Hoppers, Talleys, Greenes, the Martins, and some other groups. I do like some stuff that Legacy Five and Signature Sound have done.

    So people, keep talking. John can just skip over the posts.

  31. quartet-man wrote:

    By the way, if you guys want to gather the stones, I am sure I am big enough to drag John outside. ;-)

  32. matt wrote:

    To John Masters,
    Respectfully, I submit that for me, the whole CQ thing will never get tired, because they were the best. Their impact was exceptional! IMO anybody who can release as many acapella albums as they did are worth discussing….. I would much rather discuss the CQ than who is gay and all the other s**t that comes up on here. I’d love to take your suggestion and listen to the old records, but my record player broke. Does anybody make good record players anymore???:-)))))
    As to your Gaither comment, are you saying Gaither sprinkled his magic over the CQ as much as the SSQ? I know BG and the CQ were close, but I doubt it. The CQ slogged it out many years before BG came around.

  33. quartet-man wrote:

    LeeStinkingBob, it might be best if John gets out of Dodge for a while while the gettin’ is good. ;-) I too disagree with the Gaither comment for the biggest part. He helped them by giving them songs, producing an lp with Kirk, and putting them into homes that might not have heard them otherwise, but they are the ones who had the talent. Gaither did a lot of the same things for other people. Sometimes it stuck, sometimes it didn’t. Sometimes it was lack of talent for the ones who didn’t make it, sometimes bad timing, bad song selection, etc. Sometimes Gaither might have even picked out some people who weren’t as good as maybe he thought. So, Gaither gave a platform to them to grow, but they brung it. I don’t know how much he coached them or anything.

  34. Cliff Cerce wrote:

    Amen to post # 23.

    We sang with The Couriers and Cathedrals many times, and they never did anything to mess up our sound. On the contrary, Neil Enloe from The Couriers would often come out on stage behind us (where his audio board was located) and tweak the sound to improve our blend. And, many other groups will tell you that he often did that for them as well.

    The Couriers and Cathedrals did nothing but constantly encourage and help me in my earlier years.

    But, a national group that was very close to The Couriers (not the Cats, who were very close to them, but another group) once came on stage and purposely messed up their mix on the audio board - and turned them down.

    I won’t mention who that group was, but I was told that it cost the group several future appearances at the Couriers’ promotions - and rightly so - which were the biggest concerts in the East. All was eventually forgiven, but I was told (not by The Couriers but by others) that The Couriers were very hurt that their friends would do this to them.

    That said, the practice was very prevalent throughout the 70’s - and is, to me, one of the most disgusting things a group could do to their brothers. Certainly, ministry or pleasing the Lord wasn’t their motivation.

  35. matt wrote:

    Quartet-man, I agree that the Singing Americans were enjoyable, especially the “live and alive” album with RS, ME, EH, and DB. They had some fantastic song selection, and each part was capably covered. What DB lacked in vocal depth, he made up for with his smooth tone. That group sound was awesome, and RS was IMO at his best on that album……there, that should please Mr. Masters. Not a single mention of THE CATHEDRAL QUARTET

  36. Leebob wrote:

    QSM - I will loan John my anti-stone barricade for a day or two. However, he must agree to return it by Thursday. I am sure my practical self will need it back by then. ;)

  37. matt wrote:

    By the way, when I thought of Rick Strickland, it reminded me of when I saw JD Sumner and the Stamps, at an outdoor concert venue. Rick Strickland was alone on stage, doing the mic check/sound setup, and he was doing some singing….I know he’s a great tenor, but i heard some awfully low notes as well. Can anybody confirm this?? From what I heard, he’s got one heck of a range.

    I did it again… CQ!! :-))

  38. GC11 wrote:

    The cats will not only be my favorite quartet but group period. I need some clarification though on something, didn’t Glen Payne move to Nashville in the latter days of their run?? Some sources say he and George weren’t seeing eye to eye on things at the end. Has anyone else heard this?

  39. cdguy wrote:

    Not a story about anybody messing up someone else’s sound, but I love the stories I heard years ago about groups playing practical jokes on each other. My favorite was the night the Oaks had a mic backstage during the Speer Family’s set. The Oaks circled around that extra mic, and sang the last note with the Speer Family, but held it several seconds past the Speers’ cutoff. I can just picture the looks on their faces, trying to figure out what had just happened.

    That was back when Mom & Dad Speer were still alive, so it was, of course, WELL before tracks and stacks.

  40. quartet-man wrote:

    #37, J.D once said about Rick Strickland that either George Younce or Glen Payne said Rick was going to be a star and it wouldn’t take J.D. much time to make him one. See I didn’t mention the Cathedrals either. ;-)

  41. quartet-man wrote:

    #38, Yeah, I heard that Glen moved to TN and that although he and George got along just fine, there seemed to be two cliques in a way, George and Ernie and Glen, Roger and Scott. I don’t know if this is true or not, but a friend told me. So, it wasn’t so much Glen and George, but maybe nothing more than the separate groups being closer since they lived in separate places. I am not sure of the details or legitimacy of it.

  42. quartet-man wrote:

    #39, that would have been fun to see and hear. Another one I heard of was when the Oaks did “Go Out To The Program” and Rose came out and started singing with Willie.

    In regards to the sound system thing, that is awful. I have heard things happening in church about pulling stuff with the sound system because of your own agenda.

    I also read in the Oaks “Our Story” book about the Kingsmen and another group (maybe the Florida Boys) almost getting into a fight at a concert because neither wanted to use the others sound system. Maybe now I know why.

  43. tad kirkland wrote:

    #21, was Melissa Brady, who filled in for Joyce with the Martins for 6 months (per or Joyce with them at your church? Why was Joyce not with them? Are the 3 siblings back together again?

  44. Trent wrote:

    #26, once a group has contracted to sing for a flat, and especially if they are going to drive a great distance to sing in the event, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that group expecting to be paid the agreed-upon flat, no matter the size of the crowd.

    Further, it’s not the group’s obligation to help advertise the event. That’s the concert promoter’s job. The group can mention it on their website, etc, but a busy group has no time to advertise a concert in PA when they live in TN and do 4 dates every weekend.

  45. John Masters wrote:

    Yawn . . . . I expected to be bruised a bit. As for you folks who said Gaither didn’t make the difference for the Cats, they doubled their rate after becoming a part of the Gaither Tour, and only then could they do stand alone concerts that made them the really big money. The television and Gaither exposure put them in a league of their own, just like EHSSQ. Why do folks poo-poo the power of television that Gaither brought to SG? Sheesh. Like a dog biting the hand that bought the food bag! Okay Ernest T. Fire away another rock!

  46. Brandon Coomer wrote:

    Re: #25 — Great post. I’ve seen, experienced, or been told by people I trust the same things you mentioned (except the Kingsmen sound issues).

    re: sound sabotage

    The only group I know with 100% certainty that did the old sound sabotage was the Hinsons. Of course this was over a decade ago, but my dad’s group was booked on back to back days with the Hinsons at the old Hee-Haw Village in Pigeon Forge, TN. Dad’s group opened up and tore the place apart. The Hinsons got up and started talking and talking. And talking. An old man in the audience stood up and screamed at Ronnie, “Shut up and sing or bring the other group back out!”

    The next day, dad’s group was told they couldn’t use their own sound system, they had to use the Hinsons or the Hinsons wouldn’t sing. Needless to say, the sound was horrible. It was magically fixed as soon as the Hinsons took the stage. It was blamed on an “unplugged cable”.

  47. quartet-man wrote:

    #45, I freely admitted that he gave them the exposure that helped them. I have never denied Gaither’s helping them or a lot of artists who weren’t having the success they had once had. Even the Cathedrals said that he helped them and got more dates after the videos too. But, it wasn’t like they weren’t successful at all prior. that they had no gifts, or that they never would have made it without him. They had success early on with Rex Humbard, they later had success with Roy Tremble and George Amon, again with Kirk, and
    Funderburk etc.

    When you come down to it, a lot of Southern Gospel “stars” careers had about wasted away until they got the exposure from here. Basically it is a collaborative thing. Just like music performers don’t do it alone (producers, stylists, P.R. etc.) so was it with Bill. the Cathedrals wouldn’t have been as successful without his placing them in other people’s homes, at Praise Gathering etc. and had they not been able to make the most of that exposure, they wouldn’t have been as successful. For that matter though, the Cathedrals in addition to the Gaither Vocal Band, and a few other groups were the reason for me to buy the videos. I could have done without most of the choir songs and some of the other groups.

  48. Robert York wrote:

    I had Danny Funderburk and his son’s group Driven in concert together back in May. They did an excellent job together. Each did the first part of the program seperate and after break Danny joined Driven to do several Cathederal songs. It was good to see them together singing.

  49. Chris wrote:

    #37 Matt - We used to have JD&Stamps all the time and Rick would constantly amaze me with his range. He’d belt out the high notes and then hit JD’s mic with some low notes. It was cool.

    #45 John Masters - The Gaither’s made the Catherdrals? You’re out of you’re friggin mind. Out here in the West, the Cathedrals have been drawing 1000+ since the mid-80s. By 1995, they were drawing 2000+. I seriously doubt, both as a SG fan/promoter and a business man, that Glen and George being on the 6 Gaither videos released by that time really boosted them by that much. Take some college psych courses - correlation does not equal causation. The Cats were just that good. People loved them. Compare them to the Weatherfords - they drew 150 people before Gaither and 125 after Gaither. Daryl Williams Trio - 100 BG and 100 AG. JD Sumner - 500 BG and 500 AG. If Gaither was responsible for the Cats success, why didn’t anybody else get an extra 1000 each concert? Extra 500? Extra 250? I’ll tell you why Johnny Boy - THE CATHEDRALS WERE THE BEST EVER.

  50. Trent wrote:

    Since we’re doing the numbers thing, Bill Clinton never won the presidency until the Gaither phenomenon started.

  51. BUICK wrote:

    Trent, Please do not blame Gaither for Clinton. PLEASE!!! Rumors like that could bring about the fall of Giatherdom.

  52. swhalen wrote:

    #45 Masters - An old proverb say don’t speak about things you don’t know for sure. Years past (BG - before Gaither), several times I travled 400-500 miles to see the Cats. Seldom was the crowd less than 1000 - for Cats alone.

    I enjoy SG for the music, but I’ll tell you that more than any other group I’ve seen, the Cats made their concerts a spiritual experience - never forced.

    One more thing - my family and I drove several hundred miles & spent the night in a hotel to see the Cats. In the morning (following the concert) we went to check out - and the Cats bus was out front and Glenn was in the lobby. Suffice it to say that folks with their spirit are a rare find.

  53. Dean Adkins wrote:

    Re Gaither & Cathedrals… from The Cathedrals by GY & GP w/ Ace Collins:

    Mid 70’s…”The day at the Praise Gathering was a turning point…One week the people who tried to sell us couldn’t give us away to people who wanted a southern gospel quartet, and the next week we had three and four offers for the same date to work in places where people had bareley heard of southern gospel music”

    So perhaps without this boost, it’s possible that they would never achieved the iconic status that some people give them.

  54. Alan wrote:

    I have to agree with several who have commented on two groups. My dealings with the Cats of old weren’t very often, but every memory of them - especially George and Glen - were entirely positive. As for the Couriers, with whom I had much more contact, I couldn’t agree more. Those men were, and are, absolutely the real deal - always encouraging, classy men, great Christians, and exactly the same whether they were onstage or off. A lot of folks in SG who were around in the heyday of The Couriers will agree, without any controversy, that they were in a class nearly by themselves. Best of all, they’re still exactly the same.

    Trent, that was a riot. I never knew till now that we have Mr. Gaither to thank for the Clintons. LOL

  55. quartet-man wrote:

    #49, Gaither did help the Cathedrals as he introduced them to more people, but the Cathedrals had the talent to back it up. At some of the concerts I went to I heard people talking who had discovered them on Gaither productions. I heard at least one pronounce George’s last name as Younce (rhyming with ounce) instead of the way it was supposed to be. (This was done on the introductions on some of the Gaither videos). Sure, someone could have read it on liner notes or in Singing News and pronounced it wrong, but people who followed them much at all knew the proper way.

  56. quartet-man wrote:

    #50 LOL. You know, we could also say that Gaither never sold many videos until he had Glen and George on the Homecoming video. ;-)

  57. Ben Harris wrote:

    I loved the Cats as much as anyone, but in reality they made a good living copying old Statesmen recordings. As to impact…that has to go to the Statesmen for they were the ones defined a gospel quartet. They had a national TV show and worked stages along side many of the top secular artists. Gaither has not done that yet, as successful as he has been.

  58. JM wrote:

    The 2,000 lbs. gorilla that is sitting in the corner for this discussion is the reality of regionalism. SGM had its’ roots and is primarily identified with the South. While there have been a few groups from the north, mid-west or the west, the vast majority of SGM influence has come from the South. I recall conversations with Glen and George during the 70’s, during which they expressed how difficult it was to get bookings with Southern SGM promoters. That was the day of the Blackwwods, Happy Goodmans and the Florida Boys and as I remember it, the Southern promoters were quite protective of their turf. Groups like the Cathedrals or Couriers were rarely booked into a Southern concert swing. I have to assume that this was a business decision and that the Southern SGM establishment felt that more local talent would put “butts in the seats.” I must say, however, that the Cathedrals and Couriers were very fine musicians and were devoted to their ministry. I would travel to many concert venues in the north, following productions put together by Lloyd Orrell (I think that’s correct?). I heard the Goodmans and the Speers and the Florida Boys and the Blackwoods and the Hinsons and the Downings and the Statesmen. But, I never felt that the Couriers or Cathedrals took a back seat to any of them. For showmanship, give me the Statesmen. But for inspiration and ministry, give me the Cats or the Couriers, anyday!

  59. Leebob wrote:

    How ironic…hearing of a promoter that felt more local talent would put “butts in the seats” when the promoters of today will not even think of putting a local group out there for fear of driving the crowd away.

    New theory…If a promoter has two quality groups that he is paying top dollar for, why spend the money for the third supposed top tier group when he/she could even spend less for a quality local group that already has a following? Consider this…most of the crowd is there for those first top two groups. That third group would be there for exposure plus $500, at least a difference of $2000. At $15/ticket, is the “third” group actually going to bring 134 more people to that concert above the quality local group.

    Let’s really talk this out. Am I wrong in my thinking? Correct the error of my ways and straighten me out.

    Mr. Masters - I may need my anti-stone barricade back please.

  60. JM wrote:

    #59 - Leebob / You are probably correct. However, the issue that I was referring to was how good, quality regional groups gain some exposure in the accepted home of SGM…the South. I have no problem with promoters running their business in a manner that produces the largest possible return on their investment. However, (and this is where we get down to the pavement) is it a worthy exercise to recycle the same 5-7 groups, around the same venues in the South, with little changeover in their musical portfolio, year after year after year? As much as I loved hearing the Statesmen or Blackwoods or Hinsons back then, I eventually stopped attending those “sings” because I’d heard the same songs, saw the same stage acts and heard the same tired jokes and stories just two or three months before. I guess I would rather see something new and different vs. the same group four times a year. As great as those groups were, they got complacent and their concerts reflected it. The Homecoming travelling road show has held up better than most shows; however, even Brother Bill will be hard pressed to sustain his all-star concerts for too much longer. We live in a society that has a limited attention span and we are always looking for the best new thing that is coming down the pike. Who knows what form that new thing may take? It might be a retread idea from the past…like four part harmony, in matching suits, gathered around one microphone, singing close harmonies, accapella. Or it might be something totally different…like a merging of SGM with technology, in order to deliver a virtual concert experience to your living room. Your guess is a s good as mine…probably better!

  61. John Masters wrote:

    Dean said, “Mid 70’s…”The day at the Praise Gathering was a turning point…One week the people who tried to sell us couldn’t give us away to people who wanted a southern gospel quartet, and the next week we had three and four offers for the same date to work in places where people had bareley heard of southern gospel music”

    Thanks Dean. Nobody makes my point better than Glen and George. Those who are boasting of the Catheral’s ability to draw 1000 people . . . nothing looks more lonely than 1000 people in a 5000 seat venue. After Gaither exposure, the Cathedrals began to soar. George and Glen said it too. So, Mr. Avery, no need to compensate me for the number of hits you got from this thread. I knew the Catheads would come out of the woodwork. Nice to see some spirited bantor again on this site!

  62. TonyWatson wrote:

    #49 Chris - while I agree about the Cathedrals and Gaither not being totally responsible for their success, if I look at the facts, I must understand that Gaither’s influence on the Cathedrals was long prior to the Homecoming videos. The first album that Gaither produced for the Cathedrals was in 1982 - first mainline studio album with Kirk Talley on it and it featured “Step into the Water” and “Then Came the Morning” and other good songs if memory serves. The PraiseGathering even earlier than that was mentioned from the Cathedrals biography.

    So while the Cathedrals were plenty good on their own and after years or hard work and doing things right drew great crowds, they, like anyone else who has had success, had a little help along the way and some of it was in no small part, Gaither.

  63. NonSGfan wrote:

    I passed the tour bus of Karen Peck and New River on my way to work yesterday morning on I-75. It looked kind of old and wore down. The reason I think it was their bus is because the L.P. Said “KPNR”.Could it be that things aren’t as frugile in SG as we think?

  64. Leebob wrote:

    #60 JM in the words of Lucy from Peanuts, “THAT’S IT!!!” Only now it is promoters having about 10-12 of the best groups and then throwing in a third group. For example; A couple of years ago the Hopper’s, Booth Brothers, and a third group were pitted together that I will not name at this time. The third group was not bad at all but I guarantee you that 60% of that crowd was there for the Hopper’s and the other 40% were there for the Booth Brothers. My question to promoters is, why pay for the third group the fee they require when you could have a quality local group for a fraction of the cost plus exposure. It increases revenue for the promoter, whom I hear, are dying out there and opens up more avenues for groups that are perhaps more regional.

    I know! I am speaking in a practical sense so straighten me out. Please bring me back to dreamland again.

  65. John Masters wrote:

    LBob said, “My question to promoters is, why pay for the third group the fee they require when you could have a quality local group for a fraction of the cost plus exposure.”

    I am not a promoter, but here is an answer. If you only have “top tier” groups and a local group, how can you help build a following for newcomers on the scene? People wondered why promoters booked a new, funny-looking group from California that nobody had heard of called the Hinsons back in the seventies. We are seeing groups like the Collingsworth Family going to the next level today because smart promoters took a chance and exposed their audiences to a group that will no doubt be a vital force for Southern Gospel. That’s why. There is nothing more unbearable than watching a crowd get worn out by a local group trying to rehash some popular group’s material, jokes and antics. There’s another reason!

  66. quartet-man wrote:

    #49 Christ

    A secret I am about to share is something I have told no one. J.D. was really a baritone. His special mic dropped the notes he sang down two octaves. That is how Rick was able to sing some low notes. ;-)

    Dean and Tony, thanks for backing up what I said earlier about Praise Gathering, the Something Special lp Gaither produced and how the Cathedrals talked about his exposure getting them more dates. In my original comment I never meant to imply he never helped them, but it takes more than someone giving you the ball to make it. You have to run with it and you have to have the skill. I didn’t make that clear enough on the first post, but the implication seemed to be that the Cathedrals owed all of their success to Gaither and never would have made it without him.

  67. quartet-man wrote:

    #65 Oops typo, should have been Chris, not Christ. :-)

  68. GC wrote:

    #24 DEB-I think Dave McVay and Mitch are still singing with Poet Voices. According to the PV website they are only singing about once a month so who knows what is actually going on. I saw them a couple months ago and they sounded ok but not as good as when Mark Lanier was with them.

  69. John Masters wrote:

    QTman said, “the implication seemed to be that the Cathedrals owed all of their success to Gaither and never would have made it without him.”

    I don’t see that implication. What was said was that the Cathedral Quartet has been seriously over glorified, and that without Gaither to maximize the abilities they did have, they would likely have never accomplished all they did. They “made it” just fine without him - if crowds of 1000 or less is success. The tens of thousands on tour and hundreds of thousands via cable television that Gaither exposed them to made all the difference in their career and the careers of all the “Homecoming” artists.

    Why can’t folks realize that was a GOOD thing?

  70. Leebob wrote:

    #65…Okay, now we’re getting somewhere. I am not saying just throw any knucklehead group up there, and Lord knows there are an abundant group of them. What I am saying is that, if the promoter is truly interested in promoting someone other than himself, he will take that chance. I am watching someone who insists on throwing himself up there singing some awful bass on “Wedding Music” and then has the audacity to say that local groups would ruin his show. I suppose he has paid for the right to stink up the place.

  71. Insider wrote:

    #66…I’m assuming your statement about J.D. and his mic is a tounge-in-cheek remark…lol…

  72. Scott Fowler wrote:

    “Didn’t Glen Payne move to Nashville in the latter days of their run?? Some sources say he and George weren’t seeing eye to eye on things at the end.”

    Ok…I must answer this one myself. All the other speculation on relationships and reasons for success is up to all you historians to wax eloquently about. But when it comes to the above question, I cannot let that history get re-written. I realize it makes for great “blogger-fodder” but here is the truth. When George and Glenn announced to Roger, Ernie and me that they were going to cut their schedule from 200 dates a year to 100 dates a year, they told us we could live wherever we wanted to live, just make sure we showed up for the concerts was all they asked. Roger and I moved to Nashville and Glen soon followed. NOT because he and George didn’t see things eye to eye. You cannot work with someone that long if you are not on the same page. Glen moved to Nashville because two of his three kids lived there as did his grandkids. And now that they had implemented the schedule cut back, he would finally be able to spend lots of time with them. His remaining child in Ohio soon followed suit and moved to Nashville as well. He and George had a great relationship as did I and Roger. To be able to be in business together and be best friends until death do us part is a rare and remarkable gift from God. George, Glen, Roger and I were very blessed to get to experience that!

  73. Alan wrote:

    John Masters #69 really said it all, I think. Is there anyone here who feels that the Cats weren’t always an upper-tier quartet? It was always Glen and George and whoever the two other young guys were. And, nearly regardless of personnel, when you featured a lead singer like Glen Payne and a bass like George, gosh - you almost have to ask “How couldn’t they be great?” I’m certain that I heard them in every group incarnation that they ever had, and they were always superb. George was just a gracious emcee, their concerts were the elusive blending of great music, good fun, and a spiritual tone. The banter between the two “old men” is the stuff of legends. We give that group their rightful place, I feel…one of the best.

    Having said that, the exposure that the Homecoming DVD’s and tour has given almost every single artist has been a boon to their careers that simply can’t be denied. Go down the list of groups and soloists, and then say that they were just as well-known before that phenomenon as they are now. I can’t imagine anyone denying that the most successful venture in sgm history hasn’t benefited everyone who was asked to be a part of it. Even the Cathedrals. The Homecoming tour has introduced almost all of us to some who are now enjoying great career success. Chances are that we would all wish that Mr. G had chosen others than he did, and not have chosen some that he did; but you can’t expect to give that kind of exposure to artists and then say that it’s a static situation, and that it didn’t benefit them. SGM artists who were only known in a small region of the USA, and to a relatively small genre of Christian music are now known by some folks around the world.

  74. Kyle wrote:

    Thanks, Scott, for the post and the clarification. To hear it from the horse’s mouth, it makes sense!

  75. Leebob wrote:

    Thank you Scott for setting the record straight. You have always come across as a class act and I appreciate that about you.

  76. GospelMusicFan wrote:

    Who needs the Inquirer today with this hot, or lets say, cold blooded thread?

  77. jbb wrote:

    God Bless You Scott Fowler.

  78. quartet-man wrote:

    Thanks, Scott. Glad to hear the details.
    I never bought the part about Glen and George not getting along. At least from stage, their affection for each other seemed really strong.

    Insider. yeah, a joke. That is why I put the ;-) there. LOL

  79. TonyWatson wrote:

    #70 Leebob -
    THAT was FUNNY!

  80. DEB wrote:

    Thank you GC! These blogs say to ask away but then you get lost in the shuffle of all the other yappers. Just in case anyone wants to know how we do it in the mid west we get the two big groups and have a third local group (who wants the opportunity to sing with the big dogs) to sell 100 tickets at 15 bucks apiece, friends , family, self, they basically covered their own cost , it works pretty good. They get a paid gig, sing the some heavys, everybody goes home happy. Gaither should have a time frame for groups. One season with the homecoming group, work it , there needs to be some variety. I get tired of the same songs and routine and jokes. Lets give everybody a chance. Lets face it , When someone sings with the Gaither patrol their church prices go up,the little churchs and venues can’t touch them anymore. It does work for the good of the group. If you think about it, we are not in compitition with each other. There is enough Gospel to go around. You can’t have to many restaurants or gas stations or SG groups. But its always the same old same old. Ok did I touch on just about all of it? Thanks for a place to vent. We need some new blood. In leadershi in SG, in new groups. with new methods, Put a lay person on the board of the NQC. Oh my gosh! Pick me pick me.

  81. GC wrote:

    I agree that there is quite a bit of room for improvement!

  82. Leebob wrote:

    #80 DEB…That is the purpose of the regional/local groups: to provide QUALITY SG for small to mid-size churches. SG is not dead just going through a transition in which the top national groups have outpriced the small to mid-size churches and the larger churches have moved to P&W and CCM. The promo guys only want the big name groups. Until the regional/local groups take what God has placed before them in the way of abundant open doors they will never fully realize EVERYTHING that He has in store for them.

    As far as jokes go, I don’t have to use the same jokes as the big boys. Being in a family ministry, the youngest brother does so much stuff that it is only a matter of time before I get a new story and never have to make up one word.

    #79 Tony - I am not sure which part was funny but I do try to amuse the masses! I have to hand it to the promo guy though, he has built a very large audience with a consistently good show 6 times a year. I never schedule an event that would have to run against his.

  83. justa noutsider wrote:

    Umm, Mr. Fowler, you made mention about how you, George, Glen, and Roger were Blessed to be in business together”, yet you make no mention whatsoever of Ernie in that equation.

    Would that mean that the rumors flying all around the last few years of a major “falling out” between you, Roger and Ernie actually DID take place?

    No wanting to stir the pot more, just curious if that was actually the case.

  84. john masters wrote:

    #72 Scott, Thanks for the info and for taking time to set the record straight. L5 is a great group, and I appreciate that you have developed your own brand, and not have not settled for trying to be George and Glen. Your sound is fresh, your material is well chosen, and your legacy will be a strong one!

  85. TonyWatson wrote:

    #82 Leebob - I thought what you said was funny because I’ve been in that same room many times. . .

  86. Leebob wrote:

    I bet you have Tony. It is the professional answer to an “open mic”. I just cringe whenever I hear that term anymore. yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck…

  87. Trent wrote:

    Something else that comes to mind about the Gaither thing. Operation Desert Storm ended about that time. I think the Gaither videos definitely had something to do with that.

    And what about that TV show “Friends” that everybody was so crazy about? Where do you think they got the title? The creators of the show plagiarized it from the “Old Friends” video and just took the “Old” part out. It wasn’t right…

  88. Wade wrote:

    # 83… you took the word right out of my mouth. I read the entire Scott Fowler post waiting to see EH’s name and it never came up!!! Sometimes more is said by WHAT is NOT said!!!

  89. Brandon Coomer wrote:

    RE: #83 and #88

    You both need to re-read Scott’s post. Scott was talking about what a blessing it was to be in business with your best friend until death. Those four experienced that, George with Glen and Scott with Roger. Excluding Ernie doesn’t mean they had a falling out, just that Ernie wasn’t his best friend.

    BTW, Ernie’s name is mentioned in Scott’s post.

  90. Ben Harris wrote:

    Look guys, speculation about Ernie or any other person living or dead, is meaningless speculation. You don’t know, and should not imply something even in question form, for it gets passed from one to the other and eventually gets told as fact rather than speculation. Ernie I know for a fact had already discussed asolo career and it seemed that was where he was heading. As a second venture George asked him to be a part of Old Friends for a while too. It seems to me this would preclude him from going with any other group, including L5. Scott gave you a solid answer, in an attempt to clear the air. Let it go at that. You’re readin way too much between the lines….it aint there to read.

  91. Tim wrote:

    Now that Gaither has released a couple of other videos featuring bluegrass gospel, how do you think a Gaither styled bluegrass homecoming tour would do? Maybe even a Gaither backed tour?

  92. David Bruce Murray wrote:


    You’re absolutely right as usual. Ernie had laid the groundwork for a full-time solo career LONG before the Cats retired.

    Checking my January 1999 issue of _Singing News_, I see he was scheduled for five solo dates that month, which was several months before the Cats retired.

    Going back to the next oldest issue of _Singing News_ I own, August 1996, Ernie had four solo dates scheduled that month…a full three years before the group would retire.

    By the time the Cats retired, he was already an established soloist. I couldn’t find any evidence to suggest whether he had pushed any singles to radio before the retirement, but he was definitely setting a precedent for what he would do after the Cats came off the road.

    I remember there being the normal expected questions of why he wasn’t part of L5 at the time, but it really made more sense for him to make a go of it as a soloist at the time.

    Scott and Roger were obviously close friends who worked well together, so it made equal sense for them to launch a group together.

    On one hand, there were two guys who worked well as a team. On the other, there was a guy who had innovative ideas and functioned better if he was the sole boss of the operation.

    All three clearly worked well together under the guidance of their mentors. Haase even went back to work with his father-in-law on a limited basis. I’m not so sure all would have been so rosy if L5 had consisted of three owners with two employees, though. Remember, Roger was already the de facto producer/co-producer for the Cats and was poised to continue that role for L5, so where would have Ernie’s bolder ideas fit into that equation?

  93. David Bruce Murray wrote:

    By the way, Ernie’s solo CD _What A Difference A Day Makes_ came out in January of 1999, if the information I found is correct. This is one other example of how he was prepping for a full time solo career.

  94. jgurnett wrote:

    Ben Harris, that statement about the Cathedrals making a good living as Statemen copyists is just asinine.

  95. Glenn wrote:

    Although I got into this really late, JM in post 60 has a great point about things getting kind of tired. Although I was late in the SG scene compared to most of you, I have seen Greater Vision at least 20 times and have heard Gerald Wolfe tell the same jokes and the same stories almost each time. I guess where I differ is that I still love to hear them sing in a live environment. With that said, I still would much prefer that at least every year or two that they change things. I guess they want to stick with what has worked for them in the past.

  96. Grave Digger wrote:

    90 -
    Hey Ben . . . I love your latest CD!

  97. Kyle wrote:

    Tim, a true bluegrass-style Gaither show will never happen….simply because bluegrass doesn’t use tracks!!!

  98. Irishlad wrote:

    The Cathedrals won the Dove award 4 times. This is the proof of their stand alone success,considering one of the years was 1976.

  99. Irishlad wrote:

    To add to#92.The Cats won the sn fan awards 82-87(excluding85)and 94-99 inclusive:a total of 11 times.That speaks for its self.

  100. Leebob wrote:

    As a blogger who has had one line out of a 6 paragraph blog taken WAY out of context, #83 just anoutsider and #88 Wade “creates vacuum”. You TOTALLY missed the whole point of the post. Wade, you read the whole thing to see if EH’s name came up? Talk about missing the forest for the trees. You two have an opportunity to engage in discussion with a member of one of the great quartets and THIS is what you come up with?

    I better loan you two my anti-stone barricade because I haven’t been this mad in a long time (even at NSGF) and the rocks are very close by…

  101. Greg wrote:

    Tad (#43),

    Joyce was with them at my church. Judy was very pregnant with she and Jake Jr.’s 4th child. Our concert was the last date before she had the baby. They’re only singing about once or twice a month. They were excellent.

  102. Greg wrote:

    #94 Ben is primarily on target about the Cats singing a lot of old Statesmen songs . . . even their last studio lp had “Trying to Get a Glimpse” which was written by Big Chief (a new verse was written for the Cats project) was an old Statesmen song. Let’s list some other Statesmen Songs the Cats sang:

    Climbing Higher and Higher, Led Out of Bondage, Oh What a Savior, This Ole House, Light of Love, Everybody Will be Happy Over There, and Teach Me Lord to Wait.

    That’s a pretty good representation to prove Ben’s point. That’s not to say the Cats weren’t fantastic but they did admire, like, and somtimes sing Statesmen songs!

  103. Ben Harris wrote:

    To #94, The Cats did make a good living singing Statesmen songs. “Climbing Higher and Higher”, “Oh What A Savior” “This Ole House”, and countless others were songs and arrangements by the Statesmen. Now, the Cats were not the only ones to do so. Countless other groups have also coped their arrangements, including my own group. It would be virtually impossible to be in SGM and not do some arrangment that the Statesmen had not already done. In fact, George Younce himself once said, “Every time I think we have came up with a new idea for a song, a look back proves that Hovie and the guys had already done that….only better.

  104. Wade wrote:

    LeeBob… thanks for the offer… but believe me I have my own. This is the only place I have seen you can STONED for making an observation…especially when 2 ppl have the same one. Do not know what got ya so in the crack about that??? … But God Love Your Heart!!!

  105. Leebob wrote:

    Wade…Oh, I recently had a 6 paragraph blog about our groups particular stand on a subject. One very small sentence was taken out of context and a couple of people gave me grief over what things they really knew nothing about.

    At the time, we were still a trio and had a friend that came along as a guest singer so we could do some quartet things. He was also guest singing with another group. I knew that Joe was leaning toward singing with us permanently and we consider him when preparing to make a change in our ministry. In the middle of the blog I made the statement that “the four of us were considering” something that was going to have an impact on our ministry. Thet fallout from the other group was amazing. In the mean time, they missed the whole point of the blog. I have seen it happen to Nick. Doug, and others and it really does get tiresome watching it happen.

    I view SF coming on here as an opportunity to learn from soemone in the business rather than blast him for something that was or was not said, however subtle it may have been.

  106. john masters wrote:

    Pssst! Can you Catheads start your own thread? Let’s talk about Tim Surrett’s excellent bluegrass gospel, Judy Martin’s baby, JD’s mic or Dave and Mitch for a while. This talking about dead people so much is getting kinda creepy!

  107. jbb wrote:

    Does anyone know if they are going to offer the “live streaming” of NQC again this year? WE watched it every night in our living room last year and it was awesome. The only thing missing is the ice cream.

  108. justa noutsider wrote:

    Never knew we were allowed to “get stoned” on a website pertaining to a religous ideal.!!.

    Must be one of them there new types of religon.

  109. TonyWatson wrote:

    NQC sent out an e-mail today about the live webcast. It’s 59.95. Information is on NQC website at

  110. Mr. Music Fan wrote:

    I was just wondering what’s up w/Three Bridges. They had a couple #1’s,never got nominated for awards,and were on SN,and still strangely seem to have disappeared. What’s up with them? I saw them on TBN’s website…the PTL past shows..and they sang a couple songs. But whatever happened to them? BTW-no connection w/Three Bridges, but is the Kingdom Heirs new cd a Church Hymnal cd…because if it is…it’s very un-original..(remember-Greater Vision made about 4,5,or 6 well-produced cds of Church Hymnal songs)..

  111. Wade wrote:

    LeeBob… Honey I was not blasting anybody just an observation. Chill out and have some Sweet Tea!! I enjoy L-5 and frankly do not blame them for doing their own thing w/o EH. Probably why he did a solo ministry… he knew he would not be wanted. As far as all the other stuff you just mentioned… ahhh probably only Harry & Fonda Peters care. God Love Your Heart!!

  112. matt wrote:

    Pssst, hey John Masters….last I checked this was an open thread, meaning us “Catheads” as you call us, are welcome to continue.
    And tell me how talking about JD Sumner isn’t talking about dead people!!
    PS…as a Funeral Director/Embalmer, I talk about the deceased alot, and it isn’t creepy. Death is a fact of life.
    Oh yeah, I forgot to mention THE CATHEDRALS.!!!!!!!!:-)))))))))

  113. matt wrote:

    Back to this talking about dead people thing……a significant part of what keeps me interested in SG music, is those deceased performers, and the recordings/legacy they leave behind. There is always more to learn about the music they sang, and from people like Scott Fowler, who chimed in awhile ago. I regularly listen to my CD’s of the old groups. The music is still powerful. They still affect me, whether the singers are dead or alive. Quite frankly, now the only group I really follow is Legacy 5. In part due to the Cathedral connection, but also due to the fact they come to our city regularly. I enjoy their performances/style. I don’t know about others, but I pick up a vibe from singers at concerts, and I get a good one listening to L5. Their overall presentation and package sits right with me.

  114. john masters wrote:

    Matt spit this out “And tell me how talking about JD Sumner isn’t talking about dead people!!”

    I didn’t say talk about JD. You gotta read before you write! I want to talk about his mic! His mic! Trust me, his mic was never dead!

  115. Trent wrote:

    Topic change. Joshua Pope has quit the new Florida Boys.

  116. Tim wrote:

    Due to the fact that the Cathedrals are still mentioned often on the blogs and are considered the benchmark more male quartets is a testament to their viability in Southern Gospel music. While they covered several Statesmen tunes in their career, you can’t get much more original than We Shall See Jesus, Champion of Love and Step into the water. Every local group of the 80’s sang these songs when they were introduced by the Cats and many will re-introduce these songs in the years to come.

  117. whitenoise wrote:

    Don’t know where the “honey” thing came from, but obviously you don’t need a “barricade” because you obviously have a very hard head.
    The whole point is and was-Here was Scott Fowler, a member of the Cathedrals, and someone who has accomplished much in this industry in his own right, actually engaging in the conversation and all you could do was try to start something by bringing up the fact that EH wasn’t mentioned by him. Probably because the discussion was about Glenn and George and not so much EH.

    He referenced an incident he had dealt with in which someone had tried to read into an innocent comment he had made in a blog more than was there, just as you did in your response to Scott Fowler.

    How many times and how much more spelled out can it be for you? You appear to want to come in here and bait people rather than seriously discuss and debate the issue being discussed (or in lieu of that) start another discussion that would be more relevant than something conjured up in your imagination.

    If there was discord between any of the Cathedrals, I respect the remaining members all the more for not making it public and for not biting into your attempt to dig into something that is none of your business and is, was, and should always be private between them.

    My suggestion to you, sir. Get a life.

  118. jgurnett wrote:

    Ben, seriously. Out of the hundreds of songs the Cats did, only a handfull were old Statesmen songs. The songs the Cats were known for, and their biggest hits, were all their own; songs like Step Into the Water, We Shall See Jesus, Wedding Music, Jesus Saves, etc.

  119. Jim E. Davis wrote:

    Just bought Gold City’s new Cd along with the Mike LeFevre Quartet’s new one. Blown away. Up another notch. Great songs. Favorite of the two is GC. Song I find myself singing is “When Jesus Saves” - Ernie Haase will be sorry he didn’t find it first. Choreography happens spontaneously.

    Meanwhile, back at the Cats…heard them and thought they were good but when I bought the Symphony record, I was hooked big time. Still one of my all time favorite albums. Drove three hours and got a motel to see their farewell concert in a sold out 3000+ venue. Good times…

  120. natesings wrote:

    #115- Interesting, I was thinking something like that happened since he hasn’t been in any of the recent promo pictures like this one for example:

  121. Disgustedatclassless wrote:

    Wade, There is still alot of presumption on your part that EH was not wanted. The rumormill does not escape your post because you allow it to continue. It seems like you are wanting to do anything you can to disparage one of the great quartets of all time.

    It has been posted on here numerous times that EH had already been working on a solo career. Seeing the difference in EHSS style and LV style, the presumption should be on the side of difference in taste rather than the more negative, “they didn’t like each other”. This is a prime example of the prepensity of humanity to go negative.

  122. nonSGfan wrote:

    Does anybody know what’s going on with Ronnie Hinson nowadays? Is he still singing? writing? It’s strange to me that the mind that poured out “Lighthouse” hasn’t had more success. Just wondering where he is..

  123. Irishlad wrote:

    What makes some people think that Scott Fowler came on here to get into a debate or discussion with anyone. Not a chance. He made his statement and that was that. End of story. People in his position can’t afford to go down that road.

  124. DEB wrote:

    #110 Mr Music Fan, I had the priviledge to see Three Bridges in concert a couple of weeks ago. They are coming out with a new cd this month. I can’t wait to hear it. They have one of the finest groups Ive heard in a long time.Go to their web site Three Bridges .net. They are booked solid. I dont think they are going anywhere for a long time. Anywhere but up that is.

  125. wackythinker wrote:

    We speak of our dearly departed grandmother, and no one thinks it’s creepy. Same with Elvis, Bing Crosby, et al. Why should it be any different with our favorite gospel singers?

    Is it just me, or does anyone else watch the Gaither videos and think “I see dead people. They’re just singing. They don’t even know they’re dead”?

  126. music professor wrote:

    On the mike lefevre quartet new cd:

    Best So Gospel CD I’ve heard since the GVB of the early 90’s. Now granted, a lot of Southern Gospel fans will not appreciate it because it’s not your prototypical southern. Take for instance David Bruce Murray, he reviewed the CD and gave it a 3.5. That review HAS to be about personal taste and not quality. I’ve not really followed this group until a few months back when they signed with Canaan. I’ve been listening to the pods and I got the CD as soon as it came out. Smooth blends.. the only weak link would be the bass singer but they did manage to mix him out of a lot of the material. The tenor is not a typical nasal, pointed sounding one, but rather a fresh, contemporary sounding. Lead singer has a distinctive voice with a country flair to it. Though distinctive (which can sometimes be a problem with blending), he blends really well. The baritone, whom we are all familiar with has a couple solos on this CD and sounds better than I’ve ever heard him before. I think he’d honestly tell you he’s singing with the best tenor and best lead he has ever sang with.. I know I think so.

    Having said that, the Gold City CD is a great one too. I love the new lead singer. But again, I don’t think the southern market is going to be well receptive of it due to the lack of musical intellect among a lot of the fans. (hints why greater vision, inspirations, mckameys all do well in fan awards)

  127. Leebob wrote:

    Music professor…whoa!!!!!!!you lump GV in with the McKameys and Inspirations???!!:o

    I know I am going to hear from the hockey fans of SG but there is absolutely NO comparison between the three harmonically. Now if you want to compare them lyric wise maybe, as all three groups do come up with some very good songs. Musically though, not even close.

  128. 2miles wrote:

    #122 - I’m certainly not the expert that many are on here but Ronnie Hinson wrote the Lighthouse in the early 70s…He and his family went on to sing until the mid to late 80s and then regrouped and sang in the early 90s until Kenny died of Cancer…Ronnie wrote most of his songs after the LIghthouse…

    Recently, He has also written “Praying Man” by Brian Free and Assurance (Also “You’ve Got His Word”, “Just Waiting for my Ride” by the Hoppers, “We Still Believe” by the Collingsworth Family. Along with many more…

  129. quartet-man wrote:

    #116 Tim, great post. I have thought the same thing. Although doing some Statesmen stuff has been part of their history, once again they have put their own mark on the industry and have done their own songs and style.

  130. gina wrote:

    Leebob, you also might wanna note there is no comparison in terms of status and longevity among the three groups either. Let’s see, about 18 years of GV, compared to 40+ and 50+ for Inspirations and McKameys, respectively.

  131. DEB wrote:

    #122 Mr NonGFan, I saw Ronnie In Nashville accepting an award for “Feel a little song coming on” that made famous. Three Bridges . It was #7 song of the year. He’s got another song coming out on the Three Bridges new cd. That great mind is still delivering #1 songs.

  132. DEB wrote:

    oops, Backwards, That Three Bridges made famous.

  133. Leebob wrote:

    Gina…Duely noted. My musical taste do not extend that far into the hills personally. I understand there is a core group that REALLY enjoy those two groups, I just don’t happen to be in that core. Although I will acknowledge that, especially the McKameys, have had some extremely well written songs.

  134. wackythinker wrote:

    DEB — You may have been right the first time.

  135. Jim2 wrote:

    It must be that “academic” mindset (no offense to our host) Thanks for chiming in before I had to. I’m suprised his toupee didn’t burst into flames mentioning those 3 in the same sentence

  136. Trent wrote:

    Let’s talk about the Gaither Vocal Band’s return to the National Quartet Convention. I’m looking forward to seeing the crowd’s response when they take the stage on Friday night. I’m thinking that this will be Wes Hampton & Marshall Hall’s first NQC appearance.

  137. Leebob wrote:

    Jim2 - I decided to take one for the team this time. Usually I will try to let discretion be the better part of valor but in this instance….not so much.

  138. Wade wrote:

    whitenoise or LeeBlaB & Disgustedatclassless… you really need to remember this is not a news paper and it is a discussion board, open blog thread… y’all both need to chill out.

    If I did not wonder out loud y’all would only have your stardom to talk about. I feel comfy though that if I did write that in a newspaper I could source it 2x and be safe. I call ya Honey Lee BlaB because that is what I say to women to calm them down.

    It’s funny what ever you want to blab at each other in your self & mutual admiration society but oh don’t allow any one to make an observation that might be contrary to what you feel. Oh and you’re both such Good Christians that you even take the time to make up CATCHY SMARTY ID’s to hide behind while you condemn ppl to hell and wine while you eat your cheese.

    WHO needs to get a life??? Look in the mirror for the answer if you ever shave.

    Disgustedatclassless & Whitenoise… maybe that was self descriptive!!!???

    But you can pick on me… Give Rick, Harry & Fonda Peters a break for a while. I got a set.

  139. Aaron Swain wrote:

    #136: I think Marshall was there back when it was him, Phelps, Penrod, and Gaither.

  140. The #1 Music Man wrote:

    Hey…Mr. Inquirer about Ronny Hinson, there are a lot of songs Ronny has written that are or have been recorded by several great artists. These are but a few: “When It All Starts Happening I Want to Be There” (Mercy’s Mark), “The Dove” & “I’m Just Waiting for My Ride” (Hoppers-the latter of which featured him), “Where the Dirt Road Stops” & “‘Round the Kitchen Table” (Karen Peck & New River), “We Will Sing” & “Praying Man” (Brian Free & Assurance), “Death in the Family Tonight” (Hinsons-his son’s group), “If God Doesn’t Have It” & “Already Sold Out” & “In Spite of the Storm” (Freemans), “That’s Just God Doing What He Does” (Inspirations), and “Let It Be Me” (Triumphant Quartet). So I think that Ronny hasn’t put down the pen so to speak.

    I’m random and so is this question…Whatever happened to the Brainards who sang at NQC a few years back? Are they still going or did they quit?

  141. Chris wrote:

    Ronnie Hinson had told me he’d gotten real down and had stopped writing for a long time. But he started up about 3 years ago, and he’s cranking out the hits. He’s touring as well. We had him in concert last year and he was incredible. The crowd went nuts for him. We’re having him again, this time with Legacy5, out here in California. Can’t wait to see him.

  142. Trent wrote:

    That one he wrote that Karen Peck sings called “Round The Kitchen Table” is a tremendous song.

  143. Glenn wrote:

    #136 Trent, I am really looking forward to it also. Although I think the NQC will survive no matter who is there, even if not on this scale, I think the Gaither’s being there will always be a big draw.

  144. Jim E. Davis wrote:

    Not to mention that Ronnie’s signing with Daywind also was a boost.

    Hopefully, that doesn’t offend any of the RH fans like it did the Catheads concerning Bill Gaither’s influence.

  145. Wade wrote:

    The Question was… have you heard Ronnie SING??? If you have seen him you know it is not much… But I love him… I just wished he sand more and preached less… when he preaches he reminds me of Lee BLAB & Harry all rolled in to 1… In the spirit of Lee Blab I promoted 3 events Hinson’s sang at and they NEVER MESSED with the sound system. Plus they did not ask EH to be in their group!!! LoL;-))))

    Lee Blab… get a life… God Love Your Heart!!! Honey !!! LMAO!!!

  146. Leebob wrote:

    Wade - I am sorry that you actually think I am hiding. I leave my website attached and have spoken with a number of people off of this web site as a result. However, I did notice brother, that there is no way of knowing how to reach you off of here. You know nothing about me and yet have, as noted by disgustedatclassless, chosen to go negative when I, among others, was merely pointing out that you were in error in your presumption. Oh yeah, this is a website of discourse, where any and all should say whatever without any kind of challenge. I merely questioned you on your presumption of the negative which you have successfully stayed the course.

    You see sir, I have been challenged several times and when I am wrong I will freely admit it. I take a stand where it is important to stand, like the blood of Christ, and will discuss where it is not so important to stand, like prefernece of style of music. Two final things: 1) God does love my heart and 2) it is Mr. LeestinkingBob to you. LOL!!! God bless your heart!

  147. natesings wrote:

    #145- What does the “A” stand for?

  148. jbb wrote:

    We recorded at Daywind earlier in the yr. and while we were resting in the engineers room the door opened and in walked Ronnie Hinson. He set down and talked with us. He didn’t have to, but, he took time to visit with our 21 yr old son and really made us feel at home. While we had grew up listening to the Hinson’s, our son had only saw him on videos. He was thrilled and Ronnie was very kind.

  149. NonSGfan wrote:

    I’m well aware of the songs he has written. I AM a songwriter, what I meant was, I haven’t seen any hits like Lighthouse come out from him. I know he’s written some Charting songs, but I’m talking about chart-toppers. I think he’s the man, don’t get me wrong, everything he writes is genious. I just wonder why he can’t get those #1’s again.

  150. Aaron Swain wrote:

    #126: DBM rates CDs on a scale of 1 to 5. 3.5 was not a bad rating at all.

  151. JEB wrote:

    149 - There are great writers, and you may be one of them, that never have a song that tops the charts for months and months. It has been many years since Ronnie Hinson’s “The Lighthouse” or Kirk Talley’s “Step Into The Water” that was #1 for nine months. I doubt Gaither will ever top “He Touched Me” or “Because He Lives.”

    Songs that stay on top for a long time are rare. Truth being known - I bet #1 songs are a surprise to the writers.


  152. Harry Peters wrote:

    #147 Nastysings, even Harry Peters knows what the “A” stands for. If you knew about email and texting, you’d know too. If you do know what it stands for, and I suspect you do, you are just being a S-A.

  153. Mr. Music Fan wrote:

    Ronny’s had some #1’s…I’m Just Waiting for My Ride..and A Little Song Coming On. He even has a song nominated this year for Song of the Year…Praying Man. So where do you see that he hasn’t had #1 songs lately?

  154. 1 old fan wrote:

    NSGF — #149 : Songs like LIGHTHOUSE are once-in-a-lifetime for most writers. Even writers who have strings of #1 hits don’t generally have more than 1 or 2 songs as huge as LIGHTHOUSE. Obviously, Bill & Gloria had several songs that have stood the test of time, but off the top of my head, I can’t think of very many more writers.

    I’m sure we’ll see dozens of other writers’ names in response to this message, but before you post, remember how ENORMOUS songs like Lighthouse, Because He Lives, He Touched Me, The King Is Coming, et al, still are today, lo these many years later.

    Not very many songs have that kind of staying power.

  155. Leebob wrote:

    How about Beulah Land written by Squire Parsons or Midnight Cry written by Greg and Chuck Day? Those are great song writers but will have a very difficult time tpping their top song.

    Has anybody come close to having as many number one songs as Phil Cross has had: I Am Redeemed, Champion of Love, Wedding Music, When I Get Carried Away, and Jesus Built a Bridge, not in any particular order. On top of that there are numerous other songs that he has written that are just simply great songs.

  156. natesings wrote:

    #155- I’m not sure how many number ones Gerald Crabb has written but it’s got to be a bunch.

  157. natesings wrote:

    #155- I just looked it up on his bio, Gerald Crabb has written 22 number one songs.

  158. natesings wrote:

    #152- Sorry, I was never a member of The Singing Americans. I guess that is what you mean by SA.

  159. JEB wrote:

    Great songs you mentioned there by Phil Cross, surely one of the best ever. I thought Kirk Talley wrote “Wedding Music.”

  160. Wade wrote:

    Hey lEEbOb… or Mr LB… I feel so good because it is friday and because I just saw my version of Harry’s Wife Fonda I can’t be tough on ya…plus most of what I write is for ahhh…ohhh wait a minute…entertainment purposes.. I still no matter what you or the other undercover blogger think I was just making an observation about Scott F’s post. Like I said I do not blame either party for wanting to do their own thing… we are better off for it because instead of 1 good group we have 2. Even if Harry Peters does ot like EHSSQ. I think both have their place.

    Mr. LB… I am not as slick as you & Dr. Joe. I do not know how to reach ppl here. I have begged for some one to tell me how I could meet Tangie but nobody has offered to help!!

    I know nothing about any of you besides what we see on here. If you tell me I will be glad do show myself. I use my real name. I am sure you can tell me. This is educational tool too!

    natesings… God Love Your Heart… if you do not know what A in LMAO stands for… I am sure Harry will show ya.

    As far as Great Song Writers I agree it is tough crank out Hit after Hit but noticed Mr. LB mentioning Phil Cross & natenotknowingwhatAstand4 mentioned Gerald Crabb. Both of these guys are GREAT WRITERS but both had had GREAT STRUGGLES with their walk with The Lord. God knows I have too. But with some of the criteria you folks use both of these men can’t be in the roll thats called up yonder. I think I will see them but some of you do not. Just wonder how you balance that. I am sure you will tell us.

    Well it is Friday and I have already been in the spirit and hope some of you have been too???

    Love to ALL from Wadster!!!


  161. Trent wrote:

    #159, I think Cross and Talley co-wrote “Wedding Music”. Besides “Champion of Love”, I think Cross’s best song is “Saved To The Uttermost”.

  162. quartet-man wrote:

    #161 If I had to pick Phil’s top two hits offhand, it would probably be Champion Of Love and the Key.

  163. mp3guy wrote:

    All you gotta do is click on Leebob’s name on any of his comments and the wonderful worldwide web will take you right to his website. From there it should be easy to find an e-mail address. As for tangie, good luck - seems like she is as reticent as you and I to share that kind of personal information - tough to tell a stalker from an admirer in this light.

  164. Not Beavis wrote:

    In case you were honestly asking, those of us in polite society usually abbreviate Laughing My Head Off as LMHO. The person you inquired of oftentimes seems to confuse his “H” with his “A” - I believe they call it cranial/rectal inversion - that’s all the clues I can give, sorry

  165. Harry Peters wrote:

    If you all only knew. . .hypothetically, what if the greatest SG writer of all time were gay? Does that mean the songs would no longer be any good?

  166. David Bruce Murray wrote:

    Aaron (#150) is correct.

    The Mike LeFevre Quartet is in pretty good company when you consider the other artists whose projects have received 3 1/2 Star ratings over the past few months:

    Gaither Gospel Series (Campfire Homecoming/Homecoming Picnic/Rock Of Ages)
    Greater Vision (Hymns Of The Ages)
    Mark Bishop (Fields Of Love)
    Legacy Five (God’s Been Good)

    Is my MLQ review in the September issue of Singing News? I haven’t received my copy yet, and the online version isn’t posted to the Singing News website yet either…despite us being well past August 15th.

    If it’s there, read it and let me know what you think. I don’t think I bashed them too bad for creating a 3 1/2 Star CD! If you think I did, well, that’s part of the fun of us not all thinking the same way about everything that comes along. :o)

  167. BUICK wrote:

    Not Beavis, #164, that was class & classic. I’m still chuckling about that. Thanks for brightening my evening. (I wish I could write like that!!)

  168. Joe wrote:

    My favorite Phil Cross song is “I Am Redeemed”. When Poet Voices did that song on the GHC video, I was in tears; and as well, after watching it several times, was amazed at the reaction of the other artists that were there that day.

    The song and the recitation are simply phenomenal.

    My top-5 personal favorite SGM songwriters:

    Dianne Wilkinson, Rodney Griffin, Phil Cross, Dottie Rambo, and Gordon Jensen.

  169. The #1 Music Man wrote:

    What’s up w/ Southern Gospel fans and homosexuals.? To be honest, I have my speculations about how some people act off the road…does that make me want to protest their music? No! But about the homos-just pray for them if you can’t stop talking about them. Instead of talking to other people about them, talk to God about them. Then your problem will be solved. :D

    On a side note (my inquiry for the day) who would like to see the McKameys or the Inspirations go Contemporary? lol…let’s collect our teeth..

  170. Jim E. Davis wrote:

    Or suppose that it is a woman?

    Dottie Rambo actually didn’t garner that many number one songs but her songs have staying power that will outlive many chart toppers. Like Fanny Crosby, she will be influencing the gospel music of several more generations.

    I don’t have to make a list…you are already listing them in your head.

  171. quartet-man wrote:

    #165 Of course it wouldn’t mean that. God used a donkey for goodness’ sake. David, Peter, the Bible is full of people who were imperfect, and yet managed to be used by God.

    However, one thing is that the people should be seeking to live a holy life for Him. Not doing as they darn well please.

    Second, we’ve been over the giving into the temptation thing verses having the temptations but not acting on them.

    Third, like it or not, the world is looking at Christians. If they see no difference between us and them, it kind of dilutes the message does it not? If they see either us as being and doing the same thing as them (or worse) or they see us turn a blind eye to sin, what do you think will happen? Well, they might think we are hypocrites or they might think that a Christian can do what they want.

    From what I have seen of this thread, it was never about the value of the homosexuals to God or man. It wasn’t about their talents or even their desire to use their talents. It is about their living for God. It is about right and wrong. Just because they can contribute is no call to allow those who are rebellious to God to serve in leadership or ministerial positions. I am not talking about falling short, I am talking about blatantly deciding that they will go against God’s word.

  172. GospelMusicFan wrote:

    Don’t forget that Anthony Burger has influenced and will be continuing to be influencing the young pianists today as they practice their piano playing.
    You be amazed at the number of elementary age children being awe struck while watching Anthony played the piano.
    I will never forget the day in Grove City, Ohio a few years ago when a 9 year old stranger told me in a concert that
    I want to play the piano like him.

  173. Practical Fellow wrote:

    Is it just me or does the conversation around here quickly dissolve into one about either homosexuality or Young Harmony? (Never both at the same time, to my recollection…)

    I think the reason the subject of homosexuality arises so quickly is that it’s hard to make peace with this lifestyle and how it fits with gospel music/Christian life. Someone said earlier that folks would be surprised if/when they learned that some of the top writers of gospel music are gay. I was pretty shocked and disillusioned when faced with this reality. And even more shocked that they were, gasp!… easy to work with and very kind. I think once you start working in the industry in some form or fashion, you lose the rose-colored glasses quickly. You have to either adjust your principles/beliefs or agree to disagree with the morals and choices of others working in the industry. Then you have to find a way to either accept it or learn to co-exist with it. I think the callings of God are what they are. Whether you live a “Sunday School” life or not, he doesn’t tend to take away talent that is being used. I don’t have a feasible answer for what the industry response should be. My personal response in how I work with individuals who identify themselves publicly (or sort-of privately: we don’t ask, they don’t tell) as homosexuals is to treat them as individuals and not make one absolute rule that applies to everyone.

    We still reference the King James Bible and wasn’t King James a little too fabulous? We sing songs at my church composed by men who are in gay relationships right now. I don’t think that behavior is acceptable, but I’m also against greed, drunkenness and adultery. If we boycotted every Christian-ish person who exhibited those sins, we’d have to shut down the Homecoming Tour tonight.

    I think our general response to this paradox should be this: we work as hard as we can for Christ and if others preach His name (for true or self-serving reason), then that’s great. God’ll sort out who was real and who was fake down the road (wheat and tares, anyone?).

  174. GospelMusicFan wrote:

    Check out this blog on handling trash we read about others in the evangelical community.

  175. Jim2 wrote:

    Wow! very humbling, I’ve seen that kind of response on this site maybe 2% of the time. That post is definitely an eye opener of how we can look past the sin and move in grace to forgive and examine our own lives.

  176. Jim2 wrote:

    #166 DBM
    Yes, your review of the Mike LeFevre Quartet is in there, as well as your review of the new Booth Brothers “Room for More”

  177. Jake wrote:

    Let me first say that I am absolutely convinced in the inspiration and authority of the Scriptures. I believe the Scriptures teach that the sin of homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God.

    However … I am getting rather concerned about the ongoing posts in this blog site — not only this thread — that seem to imply that there is a lot of homosexuality in SG music.

    I am sure that in any genre of music — including SG — there are a number of people who struggle with many kinds of sinful desires. And, with the number of people involved in writing, performing, arranging and producing SG music, it is certainly within the realm of possibility that this particular sin could be present, either as a temptation or even as a sinful practice.

    What bothers me is that certain people keep dangling in front of us that we would all be shocked if we only knew. I wonder if any of them are struggling with homosexuality themselves, and this is their way of appeasing their consciences, by pointing out that others do it too. Either that or they must be extremely hung up on one particular sin.

    We keep hearing how much homosexuality is present in SG music circles — but it is always behind a cloak of anonymoty. That in itself makes me wonder. Why do you dangle it in front of us, yet refuse to name names or confront the sinner? Is that how you get your jollies — thinking you are giving us some kind of shock announcement?

    I look at averyfineline because I want to know about SG music — not to hear unsupported and unsubstantiated insinuations. If you can’t tell us something that we need to know — and that means coming right out and calling a spade a spade, giving names and details — then you need to keep your insinuations to yourself. They are certainly not building up the Body of Christ, and therefore, on the basis of the Word of God, are not to be said.

  178. Mark Crary wrote:

    READ NO#25

    To all the Cathedral and Ernie Haase fans: For a real assessment of those two artist No.#25 Catfan hit the nail on the head. It sheds some light on the real Ernie Haase that the fans don’t know and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

  179. onemadeupmind wrote:

    In reference to song writers, one of the great ones of our day is none other than Larry Petree. Strong, biblically, based songs.

  180. Scott wrote:

    “rigging” of sound systems. My My.

    The drag queens have been doing this to one another for years–don’t you people get out?

  181. scope wrote:

    My current favorite songwriters are Joel Lindsey, Wayne Haun, and Ricky Atkinson.

  182. rr wrote:

    The new Baptist Hymnal has recently been released. Of writers mentioned above, Kirk Talley, Dottie Rambo, and Bill and Gloria Gaither have songs in there. I am not a Baptist, but I have thoroughly enjoyed looking at this new version of the hymnal that adapts to music being used in the churches now.

    Chris Tomlin and Paul Baloche are some of the top writers of contemporary praise music, and both of them got several entries in the hymnal.

  183. Wade wrote:

    177 Jake… There have been a few ppl on here that have attempted to name names. But I think rightfully so, they have been edited in moderation. I do not see anything good coming from naming names in a forum like this.

    The point simply was there are a few posters that are convinced that all homosexuals will be in hell. So in a attempt to get a few of these ppl to chill, the discussion was if some of them had any idea how many ppl in SGM drove that road their modesty would be shocked.

    This subject much like abortion, once saved always saved & ministry vs. entertainment will be eternal until the Good Lord returns to earth in the flesh. They will never be settled by humans.

  184. SGFAN65 wrote:

    Off topic - but it is an “open” thread !

    I had the chance to go and see the “New and Improved” Gold City this afternoon at a Homecoming Singing near where I live in Georgia. I can honestly say - that I am now a Gold City fan once again.

    I must confess that I had gone astray from being a fan of the group when Johnathan Wilburn joined the group. I really had not followed them or cared to do so since David Hill left and he joined. I never felt Johnathan fit in with them. (forgive me if I am spelling his name wrong). I alwasy felt he was better with his folks - than with Gold City.

    The New Lead - Bruce - has amazing range and control of his voice. A great addition to the group.

    Daniel has taken the role of the MC with a geniune heart to minister and his vocal abilities are just great. A fantastic baritone/lead as well.

    The bass singer is awesome - great tone and control - very entertaining -

    and Steve Ladd is certainly proving to be an outstanding Tenor - His presentation is just as pleasing as his voice. His range is just awesome - and control reflects in each and every song.

    They were collectively an awesome group today - and I was blown away by them.

    Homecoming afternoon singings can some times be a bit of a challenge - but they never let that discourage them from giving it their all today.

    The songs they sang from the new project are great - I am excited about the New Gold City - and will certainly follow their ministry again. I could not wait to buy their new project- Moment of Truth - I encourage you to get it.

    It you too went astray from being a GC fan because of one reason or another, I encourage you give them a listen now - and see that there are going to be a group to reckon with again. Each of them individually is a very talented individual - but them for them to collaborate together and blend - is a great great sound. Not to forget - that their piano player Josh adds a great deal of stage prescence and sound to them as well.

    Consider me back in the fold - and Gold City - thanks for a great Sunday afternoon concert. I was blessed by it - and really really enjoyed it.

    Go out and see them if they are near you soon.

  185. Trent wrote:

    Gold City never stopped being a group “to be reckoned with”. They were great with Jonathon Wilburn; they are great now.

    I listened to the new project today, and it’s one of the finest they’ve ever put out.

  186. Joe wrote:


    Since this argument, as you say, will “never be settled by humans”, let’s you and me allow the Lord to settle it.

    Pick up your Bible. Read out loud 1 Cor. 6:9-10. If you have to, read it a dozen times. Enough until you get it.

    Then, tell God “to chill”.

    I have been in and around SGM for over 40 years. As I said when this was discussed last year, a few years ago I played in the NQC golf outing, and rode with a hugely prominent name in the industry. This was one of the discussions of the foursome. Only one individual in SGM was discussed, and his name has been oft mentioned. The singer I was with said this, to which we all agreed:

    “I thought homosexuality was incompatible with being a Christian.”

    ‘Nuff said. That’s what the Bible says.

    What you may think is the equivalent to a gnat expelling flatus in a tornado.

    God’s standards are final.

    It doesn’t matter who is what when referencing who wrote what. What matters are the unchanging, holy, righteous standards of an unchanging, holy, and righteous God.

    In all of your arguments, you consistently forget that. Or worse, reject it completely.

  187. needsooongs wrote:

    I agree with onemadeupmind, Larry Petree is totally forgotten in this day, and his songs penetrate the heart. I must say a word of disdain towards Phil Cross…SORRY….I don’t like his songs. I think, lyrically, i could sit down right now and match each song in content and emotional value. SORRY, can’t help it, I don’t like his songs. With exception to a few catchy ones. I think Champion of Love is ridiculous. I think the greatest songwriters are Dottie Rambo, Bill Gaither, Larry Petree, Ronnie Hinson, and MAYBE Gerald Crabb, though his songs lack depth. Kirk Talley has pumped out A FEW monster-songs, but in my opinion, to be the best of the best, you have to have years of continued hits. Longevity is the key.

  188. Ben Harris wrote:

    Joe….good post. Far more direct than I could have done, but I am glad someone had the muster to say it. God bless you and yours.

  189. observantboy wrote:

    Larry Petree needs to quit hyping himself under made up names.

    He is a whacko anyway.

  190. st wrote:

    By the way, Larry Petree wrote “He Didn’t Mean Much to this World (but he means the world to me).” Since Phil Cross sang the song, they assumed Phil wrote it, but he didn’t - Larry Petree wrote the song.

  191. Joe wrote:

    Mr. Ben Harris-

    Thank you for your kind words. Hey- the contact page on your website is down. Any way I can contact you personally?

  192. Leebob wrote:

    #187 Champion of Love is ridiculous…okay what have you been smoking? And PLEASE we need more songs and since you are SOOOOO good…pop ‘em out buckaroo!!!

    #162 QSM The Key is an absolute awesome one as well. There was another one on that project “This Changes Everything” that happened to be the first song I heard immediately after watching The Passion. It still gives me glory bumps when I hear it.

    All of you have named alot of names that I had forgotten. I appreciate the input. This has actually been enlghtening for a change.

    To add what Joe had written (Great post BTW) if King David, a man after God’s own heart, could not rise above God’s standard then who do we think we are?

  193. Ron Hostetler wrote:

    Nashville-are fans of the Crabb Family, and it’s various spin-offs, will want to know Aaron & Amanda Crabb and Crabb Revival will be doing a benefit concert this Thursday, August 28, 7pm, at Two Rivers Baptist Church. It’s a concert in benefit of the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society.

    There will also be a silent auction, with items from Tim McGraw, Keith Urban, Taylor Swift, Pat Boone, Barry Manilow, Wynonna Judd, and more.

    Tickets are $15. in advance (the church or area Lifeway stores), and $20. at the door.


  194. 1 old fan wrote:

    Looks like a great weekend for sgm fans in Nashville. In addition to the Crabb kids’ benefit concert Thursday, Legacy 5’s “Celebration” at Opryland Hotel (Garylord whatever they call it this week) is this weekend with Booth Brothers, Hoppers, Buddy Greene, and more. Concert-only tickets are available through L5’s office; room/ticket packages through the hotel.

    Greater Vision will be singing at Hermitage Hills Baptist Church (Lebanon Rd in Hermitage) Sunday morning, August 31st, in the 9:30am worship service.

    Lot’s of great gospel music!

  195. needsooongs wrote:

    First of all, I’m not Larry Petree, I think his doctrines are ludacrious, but I think his writing is amazing.

    “ladies and gentlemen, can I have your attention”. COOMME OON!!!! Christ is not a boxer, he’s the king of kings, Lord of Lords, Blessed and only Potentate, wonderul counselor, king of glory….he’s not a stinkin boxer leestinkingbob. I hate the song, it’s just my personal preference. You may love it, but I despise it.
    I thought Phil Cross wrote “he means the world to me”, thanks for clearing it.

  196. needsooongs wrote:

    also, I have songs in circulation now…..and also…why don’t you go by leestinkingbob anymore? and also……..

  197. WackyStinkingThinker wrote:

    I heard Lee finally took a bath, so he wouldn’t stink for a while.

    Now, if I could just get rid of my stinkin’ thinkin’.

  198. Wade wrote:

    Dr. Joe… if you take all that chapter list out then even one of my former music ministers I have played for will not be in heaven. Because he is very effeminate. Nor a long list of other ppl. So you just keep thinkin’ what ever you need to think and I will likewise. If I remember I was not talking to you. I was just trying to help a fellow poster that seemed late to the party a quick catch up!! God Love your heart!!!

  199. Greg Crowe wrote:

    I am not one to take up for someone on a board but I traveled with Phil for 4 years, and you can have any opinion you like but the man is an incredible songwriter who is constantly looking for new and innovative ways to deliver the message of Christ. You want longevity? 0ver 20 years of hit songs.My personal favorites are the songs like “This Chages Everything”, ” If We Don’t Pray”,”My Name Is There” and many other great lyrics that are never heard in mainstream circles. If your going to bash someone please do so with merit and don’t put down someone who has constantly been at the top of their profession. I am sure that you are a talented songwriter and if so, you will join the other great songwriters in the business who admire and speak highly of his writing skills. If you don’t like him, that is fine but don’t carelessly slander the man or a song that has encouraged Christians and non-believers for over 20 years!

  200. Ben Harris wrote:



  201. Joe wrote:

    Wade, my friend-

    I don’t plan on taking a single passage out of the Bible. However, if you wish to do this to agree with your personal thinking and world view, have at it.

  202. Wade wrote:

    Well Dr. Joe…

    What are you doing??? There’s a BiG Ole list there you picked out Homosexuals and I pick out effeminate men. If homosexuals are all going to be in hell so are the long list of others in that chapter. It’s is so ridiculous. I used the verse you give me. I did go ahead and read the rest of the chapter to put it in perspective.

    There is only one unpardonable sin. It sure ain’t being gay!!!

    Love ya Doc. I will take my chances with God.

  203. Joe wrote:


    This will be my last post on this. I’m getting tired.

    All I’m doing is asking you to believe what God says. You have supported homosexuality in professing Christians on 3 threads now. God says that they will not be in Heaven. And He says the same, as you have pointed out, about alot of other people who say one thing, but live another.

    But please note what this passage says, as well. Paul states, to the Corinthian Christians, “such WERE some of you…” They HAD been; but once saved and washed in the blood of Christ, they were no longer.

    This defines repentance. Rick plainly stated to all of us that he had no intention whatever of repenting from his lifestyle.

    And eternally speaking, this presents a huge problem. Not my words- God’s. If you’re gonna take your chances with God, then you really oughta believe what He says.

    Best regards, my friend.

  204. needSOOOngs wrote:

    Never “bashed” Phill, just said that “PERSONALLY” I don’t like his songwriting. Everybody has an opinion, I’d rather hear Dotties, Ronnie Hinson’s, even KENNY Hinsons, larry’s, Geralds…ect…..It’s JUST MY OPINION. NO bashing, I’m sure he’s a great man.

  205. Sissey wrote:

    Phil Cross is a great man. God blessed this man to write songs. He has been in the Gospel Industry for 25 years.I pray God will continue to use Phil to write songs. I always look forward to the Song Writer;s Showcase at NQC. I think it is the best thing at NQC.

  206. needSOOOngs wrote:

    I agree with you, I pray millions of souls are saved through his writing.

  207. Greg wrote:

    neewSOOOngs wrote:

    .I don’t like his songs. I think, lyrically, i could sit down right now and match each song in content and emotional value.

    That comment was bashing, tacky and unprofessional if you are truly a songwriter. Everyone does have a right to their opinion but if posted on a public board, they also have the right to be held accountable even if you don’t know the identity of that person. If you are able to match Phil’s songs lyrically and spiritually, you are missing a great opportunity to bless people and make a nice living. You should allow some people to release these hit songs. You should also give your name because I am sure that many groups would drive to your home,meet you and pay you for the rights to record such great work.

  208. natesings wrote:

    The next commenter is gay.

  209. buttercup wrote:

    Your mom is HOT!!!

  210. BGC wrote:

    You may or may not like someone’s songwriting for whatever reason just as you may or may not like a certain genre. But we are all different, all have a free will, and all have different likes and dislikes. Don’t put down a writer just because you don’t care for the song. Personally I do like Phil Cross as a person and as a songwriter. I like this songwriter because he writes a message, not just a song. I guess this is another area we DO agree on G.C.

  211. natesings wrote:

    #209- Thank you maam. See, I told you.

  212. needsOOOngs wrote:

    You’re both missing the POINT, I FEEL, I BELIEVE, my OPINION IS…..not saying that it has to be everybody’s, or that it’s going to match up with everybody’s…it is MYYYY opinion…it’s MY preference. Quit looking for a reason to get mad, I never put him down, I said he’s probably a great man, he has probably won alot of ppl to Christ, he has blessed countless souls, but his style of writing doesn’t appeal to me…
    calm down duckey the water is still in the pond.

  213. SgFan11 wrote:

    SO i don’t know if ya heard or not but there’s a new Crystal River in town. 3 guys from an acappella group “ChoZeN” has filled the open position. you can check out there myspace page at

    in my opinion they are better than the older members plus they have a better look to them as well, I’m excited to see whats to come of Crystal River 2.0!

  214. sgfan11 wrote:

    and for those skeptical about these new crystal river boys look at this video of the old one singing mercy river and swing by and see what the new version sounds like…

    it dosent take a genius to figure out that these new guys are better, plus they are not even recording there own material yet!!

  215. natesings wrote:

    Sorry, I called that one 5 comments too soon.

  216. nonSGfan wrote:

    They need to cut their hair. They look like sissys

  217. Zack Swain wrote:

    Ebay Steals
    Hey everyone. Just wanted to pass along the info that my family is selling alot of the gospel music cds that we have doubles of on ebay. They don’t have any reserves or anything and there is some really good stuff in there. We even have some old cathedrals stuff. I’ll list the links below for ya! hope you can find something your interested in :D


    MISC: PACKAGE ame=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=220274 669875

    Booth Brothers Package: ame=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=220274 660510

    Kingsmen Package: ame=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=220274 665099

  218. Baritone wrote:

    Speaking of Phil Cross, I see he has a new website at

  219. Cindy wrote:

    Rick is not singing with The American Quartet any longer. He has his own Ministry.

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