Coming out from among them

[NOTE: Comments are now closed, since most people stopped saying anything new or illuminating a long long time ago.]

The Washington Blade covers  CCM’s Ray Bolz and his decision to be honest and open about his sexuality (this mainstream media treatment of Christian entertainment subculture echoes GQ’s article on Kirk Talley a few years ago; I find it a telling indictment of the Christian press that it is virtually incapable of writing meaningfully about these sorts of stories). I like to think I’ve got a pretty good gaydar, but I did not see this one coming (out). More interesting for southern gospel may be the context lower down where the author talks about Kirk Talley and comes as close as anything I’ve seen in print to saying about Mark Lowry what most of the industry strongly suspects or thinks they know. Money quote:

No artist of Boltz’s prominence has come out. A few minor CCM players have, but their decisions were hardly celebrated.

Marsha Stevens, a Jesus Movement songwriter famous for the Christian folk song, “For Those Tears I Died,” a favorite in youth camps and churches for decades, came out in 1980. She was famously renounced by Bill Gaither, whom she’d been photographed with at one of his “Homecoming” concerts, in 2006.

Kirk Talley, a Southern Gospel singer (a slightly different genre than CCM, though there’s some overlap of the players), confessed to struggling with homosexuality and came out in GQ in 2005. He’s continued singing in churches but only because he’s categorized his sexual orientation as a burden to be carried.

[snip]

Others appear to avoid the topic altogether. Though it’s not fair, of course, to assume a Christian singer who never married is gay, speculation has existed in fan circles for years that single CCM artists like Mark Lowry and Margaret Becker might be gay (Lowry has denied that he’s gay; neither Lowry nor Becker responded to interview requests for this story).

The whole thing is here  (Hat tip, C).

Update: Examining the ex-gay movement and GMA responses to Bolz’s coming out, TWO has a cogent dissection of how the rhetoric of “choice” and “lifestyle” is deployed by opponents of homosexuality to deny homosexual orientiation as a basic element of the gay person’s identity, all experiential and (increasingly) empirical evidence to the contrary (and yes, I imagine this will be ardently disputed forthwith). As you can see in the comments  here, the discussion of (homo)sexuality is really a proxy fight in the conflict between absolutist Christians, who see the tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality as a real and direct threat to their way of life and values, on the one hand, and on the other, Christian humanists and secularist pluralists, who see the extension of human rights to non-heterosexuals as part of the urgent modern struggle to live up to our own best beliefs about the equality of all men (and women). I have no illusions that this debate will be resolved any time soon, whether religiously, culturally, politically, or legally - even as I refuse to stop believing there must be some intrinsic value in exchanges like the ones going on in comments threads like these, however conflictual they may be. But if history and current trends in changing attitude and beliefs are any indication, anti-gay arguments from the Biblical literalist point of view and the ex-gay perspective will sooner or later take up their place in the dustbin of earnestly held and honestly felt but ultimately discredited bigotries and phobias, alongside Biblical justifications of slavery, phrenological arguments for the inferority of non-white races, and  psuedo-scientific claims about the genetic inequality of the sexes. Too many people think because they are on the right side of all those latter issues now that they can’t possibly be on the wrong side of the sexuality issue today, but then I’m sure that’s what pro-slavery preachers and segregationist phrenologists thought, too. Then, as now, this just shows how fundamentally good people can misjudge their position in history and so fail to see that even notionally absolutist  worldviews have always had to accommodate themselves to mass-cultural shifts of value and belief (this includes fundamentalist and Biblical literalist evangelicals - witness, for instance, the Southern Baptist Convention’s renunciation of its own racist past). Acknowledging this sort of thing doesn’t make anyone a hypocrite. Just more wonderfully human.

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  1. Truth Wins Out - Ex-Gay Criticizes Christian Singer’s Sexual Honesty, Misquotes Human Genome Project on 15 Sep 2008 at 7:42 pm

    […] For more insight into the (mis)handling of sexual orientation by the Christian gospel music scene, check out averyfineline. […]

Comments

  1. Harry Peters wrote:

    Old Harry Peters appreciates Kirk Talley and Ray Boltz being open about their sexuality. I wonder how many SG artists are as open about their adultery and fornication? You can’t exactly pull a silver eagle with your name on the side of it into the parking lot of an oriental massage parlor. Yes, Kirk Talley and Ray Boltz are gay. What next? EH and all of SSQ are straight?

  2. SGfan wrote:

    One word says it all.

    Sad. I’ll prat that he experiences the life transformation that only God can do.

    Here is an example of someone that has fought the same battle and come out on the winning side.
    http://www.dennisjernigan.com/

  3. Joe wrote:

    Adultery and fornication are as wrong as is homosexuality. Lives lived for these sins represent human beings who will not inherit the Kingdom of God, no matter what they or others say.

    The Word of God is crystal-clear on these points. Irrefutable, except by the liberal arguments of those who post here; those who say “anything goes”, and who don’t give an iota about what the Bible says.

    Here is the bigger question. Why does Doug post every pro-homosexuality news byte that comes along? What underlying agenda might he himself have?

  4. DRL wrote:

    #3, I do find it interesting that Doug “indicts” the christian press for not being able to write anything “meaningful” (whatever that means) about homosexuality, then calls it a “money quote” when they imply that Lowry is gay just because he’s single.

    Gosh, I’m single. Why didn’t anybody ever tell me that I’m gay? I’m so disappointed! All these years I could have been so happy, but now the reality becomes clear … I AM GAY! Oh my, how liberating that was!

    *BARF* Is this the Bizarro-world or something???

  5. Joe wrote:

    #4-

    Here is what you need to know. You are posting on a weblog that condones, excuses, sidesteps, rationalizes, and liberally accepts as “normal”, the subject of homosexuality.

    Those who faithfully try to speak for the Word of God, and bring Scriptures to bear on this and other subjects, are regularly scoffed at and ridiculed; called multiple names that are now well-known epithets.

    On another thread I stated that this blog has become (not certain if it was ever different) style over substance. Literally all Doug’s posts are from the viewpoint of style, and not substance.

    Take his blogs from the NQC as an example. They focus on the sound, whose voice has matured the best, stage effects, hair styles, personalities, who should or should not be on the main stage, all that is wrong with the NQC, who sounded the worst of the evening, etc. etc. etc.

    Not a single hint about the spiritual message of the music. Not a single mention of which song blessed his soul, which line reinforced his faith, which chorus made him appreciate more his salvation, which verse brought him closer to Christ, which set brought the Lord the most glory, etc. Nothing of substance.

    There is, usually and sadly, very little of spiritual or Scriptural substance here. It is not found in the lead-off posts. And it has become soundly discouraged in the follow-up posts. It’s all about style, folks. And homosexuality is a “style”; a choice of lifestyle, to be exact- condemned by the God of the Bible. But then…that’s substance, and substance doesn’t count for much here.

    I guess this is what he means when he headlines what goes on here as “gospel music for the rest of us.”

    The lives of many true Christians really DO center on and commit to Scriptural and spiritual substance.However, it is becoming increasingly obvious that this perspective on averyfineline, has been relegated to the decidedly minority and increasingly unpopular “opposing point of view”.

  6. rr wrote:

    I think it is very unjust to judge anyone with wild speculation. When name calling is done, it can be very damaging to innocent parties. God will judge the hearts, and nothing that is “hidden” will escape any of us.

    One of the finest Christian men I know (and not in SG, by the way) is single, in his 50’s. I am sure he is not gay. I would be very sad to think that people would in error point to him, a community leader, as gay, simply because he is single. No one should get married just to avoid a stigma. I think each person has the right to choose the solitude of single life, if that brings contentment to the individual.

    And yes, Avery, you do have your radar (or gaydar, as you so aptly said) tuned in all the time. Why is that?

  7. RobinAshley wrote:

    Before I say anything else let me say that I don’t know if ML is gay or not. I’ve never really thought he was, but I mean, come on…he does occasionally lend himself to speculation. Let’s not be naive.

    As far as this blog as a whole goes, Doug never said that this was a blog to discuss deep Christian theology. It’s a blog to talk about Southern Gospel music, which is what he does. I had a conversation with a friend just last week about the fact that Southern Gospel music, for all the emotion and theology attached to it, still has be run like any other business. So Doug is just doing what he said he would–discussing the music. I thought his NQC blog was great. If I wanted to know how the music touched someone or the story of their salvation, I would read another blog or talk to a friend. But when I come here I expect (at least) semi-objective commentary on the music I love, which is what I always get.

    I’ll be praying for Ray Boltz like (hopefully) the rest of you. I’m not liberal on this issue even a tiny bit, but it seems the comments have strayed from the actual issue at hand: Ray Boltz.

    xoxo

  8. ng wrote:

    Here’s another paragraph from the article:

    Kirk Talley initially declined to be interviewed for this story saying he’d “been through enough hell,” but did consent to one comment: “I will definitely be in prayer for Ray,” he said in an e-mail. “He has no idea the crap he will have to endure.”

  9. Brett wrote:

    Well I guess I will have to pitch his one cd I own. Talk about luke warm christianity. Jesus will spew out of his mouth.

  10. quartet-man wrote:

    I am single too and straight as can be. Anyone who thinks being single is definitely gay needs to ask themselves what Christ’s marital status was.

  11. SGfan wrote:

    Just a thought. This is the description listed by google for the source our gracious host has cited.

    “Weekly. Offers local and world news, entertainment, classifieds, free personals, and an events calendar for the gay and lesbian community.”

    I would like to ask Doug how often he reads this site. Is he a subscriber and if not, what brought him to this story? Doug, are you looking for a comparison to point to so you can justify “coming out of the closet” yourself? One has to wander simple because of the pro-gay stance you have taken so frequently on this site. Just a thought. By the way, check out the testimony of Dennis Jernigan. I posted a link to his site earlier. I think (as a Christian journalist/critic) you might like to highlight someone who has overcome the addiction to such a sinful lifestyle to become a great songwriter and a witness to others that face the same issues to provide some context. He overcame, so can anyone else with the help of God. He learned that you should not define yourself by your sin (as many homosexuals do) but seek to define yourself by who God wants to be in you. We all have a predisposition to sin, but that does not have to control our lives and when we are delivered from sin, we have to allow the transformative work of God to make us who he wants to be in us. The issue of homosexuality then fades away. God did not make anyone homosexual. Sin makes someone homosexual. God delivers you from sin and that includes homosexuality. Just a quick thought.

  12. quartet-man wrote:

    #11, considering the hat tip that Doug gave, it appears someone gave him the heads up on the article.

  13. AG wrote:

    This story about CCM’s Ray Boltz is “Criticism and Commentary on Southern Gospel Music and Culture” how? Simply because Kirk and Mark mentioned?

  14. SOGoFan wrote:

    I think yall would be amazed at all the “gay” southern gospel singers in this industry… i have met quite a few!

  15. RobinAshley wrote:

    13…it’s “commentary” on SG “culture” because it affects Christian music as a broad genre, of which SG is a part. Also, as you said, Kirk and Mark are mentioned…

    10…Hahaha. Nice point.

    9…Why in the world would you throw out his CD? Does the music stop carrying the message that it did before? Sorry..I’m just starting to get flashbacks to the Marsha Stevens “I’m-throwing-out-all-of-my-Homecoming-tapes” debacle.

    xoxo

  16. Grave Digger wrote:

    Oh well, Robin . . . #9 makes almost as much sense as my friend that’s getting rid of all his Jimmy Buffett CDs because Buffett is voting for Obama.

  17. SGfan wrote:

    #12 quartet-man

    Yes, I see that. Thank you. However, I do still find it rather interesting that our dear host would use this particular site as a source without providing some context. He has been very defensive in time past and seems in some cases to have supported a pro-homosexual agenda. That is what is troubling me. How can someone claim to be a form in the art of Southern Gospel and not understand the truth and principles that form the very foundation of the art form?

  18. irishlad wrote:

    I noticed the guys who posted to say they were single and straight didn’t enlighten us more. Are they celebate or are they fornicating? It’s the logical conclusion after all. Personally i’d be very wary of a single guy who’s celebate,all that pent up frustration couldn’t be healthy. I’ve never been married,but i’m definitely not frustrated. And i’m not gay.

  19. pk wrote:

    I found the article on Christianity Today yesterday and it had the link to WashingtonBlade….so there are ways to find the articles without having to surf the web for gay material….

  20. SGfan wrote:

    I meant to say a form of authority in the art of Southern Gospel. Oops. Sorry.

  21. quartet-man wrote:

    #17 SGfan, I would surmise that Doug finds nothing wrong with it and I totally disagree. I do understand his posting it as it is news and does relate to Christian music. As far as supporting the music and not expecting lifestyles to reflect that, perhaps I can be of some assistance. There was a member on the Oak Ridge Boys board who liked their gospel music, but was an atheist. He didn’t agree with the lyrics being true, but he liked the style, performance, singing etc. I guess it could be the same of those of us who like kiddy songs or songs about Santa. I am not saying that Doug is an atheist or doesn’t believe, just that one can appreciate the music and either not believe or have different denominational beliefs.

    #18 irishlad

    I have shared that information before, but will do it again. I am a virgin and will remain one until the day I get married or die. God created us and Paul said in His word that it is better to remain single, but if not then it is better to marry than burn. Christ remained single and was able to and He was in human form. If it were not doable, then God would have made allowances.

  22. FirstNighter wrote:

    I’m almost 40 and single….not really by choice, but my life isn’t over either. :) I’d like to be married, but not for the sake of being married. I’ve just not met the right man for me.

    I was in the sg industry for years…sure hope people didn’t assume I was gay because I wasn’t married.

    But it is true…there are more gay people in sg than anyone realizes…and more cheating going on than anyone wants to know. A lot of the “heroes” wouldn’t be so high if the fans who demand spiritual integrity knew the way they actually live their personal lives. Doesn’t take away from their ability to sing…but it does detract from the believability of their witness.

    Is it any worse than a mean spirit or a lofty attitude and treating people badly who don’t fulfill your expectations with contempt and rudeness? Our tendency to categorize sins as worse than others needs to be examined and we all need to be reminded of how much we’re forgiven for on a daily basis. Not condoning open, willful sin that continues without repentance, but hoping we can show more grace and let God talk to them about what He wants changed.

  23. Fezzik wrote:

    Not sure if this is the article that pk referred to, but yes, it has been somewhat covered in the “Christian Press” http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2008/09/ray_boltz_comes.html
    interesting to note how the “discussion” over there covers many of the points that have been argued over the years here, ad nauseum, but without the rancor. Are SG fans that much less civil than CCM fans?

  24. Joe wrote:

    That there are corrupt policemen, does NOT justify corrupt policemen. Are we forgetting that the G in SGA stands for “gospel”!? The gospel is “Christ died for our sins.” The fact that so many professing Christians so callously excuse these heinous sins, almost makes the death of Christ a colossal and total waste.

  25. quartet-man wrote:

    Firstnighter, I don’t think anyone here is dismissing that there aren’t others in SG, that there aren’t other sins (adultery, fornication etc.) It just seems that the homosexual agenda seems to be pushed a lot more often and tried to be crammed down our throat as okay, normal, something to be celebrated and accepted and anyone who dares say it is wrong is called intolerant, hateful, homophobic (not an accurate term because I have no fear, irrational or otherwise of it) etc. The more they try to make it acceptable and preach it is okay, the more we will stand against it. I believe it wouldn’t be discussed as much if so many weren’t so political in trying to force its acceptance and so quick to try to silence anyone who speaks against it.

  26. quartet-man wrote:

    #22 Firstnighter, by the way “How YOU doin’?” ;-)

  27. quartet-man wrote:

    #24, you’re right. Just because there are corrupt policemen, SG singers etc. doesn’t make it desirable or right. We are to pattern ourselves after Christ not others.

  28. FirstNighter wrote:

    Quartet-man…I understand it being rampant and “all over the place”…I’m just saying adultery isn’t talked about at all…it’s ignored. Probably not as much in recent years…or at least with recent artists. We don’t want the heroes of sg to be knocked off their pedestals. Honestly, people don’t really WANT to know the truth about their heroes. You’ll enjoy the music a lot more…and just enjoy it for what it is. The music with the message.

    Bottom line is we’re all human and have SOMETHING that we struggle with at some point. We’re just not in the public eye the way they are so it’s not displayed and discussed for all to see, hear, and comment on.

    Btw…I’m doing fine….how YOU doin’?! :) (cracks me up that you used that line…source would fit right into this discussion. ha!)

  29. Mark Crary wrote:

    How pathetically sad.

    Hard to read.

  30. GC wrote:

    So Mark Lowry is Gay? Surely that would be a surprise to everyone!

  31. C wrote:

    SGFan,
    Not that Doug needs defending, but I’m the one who emailed him the link to the Ray Boltz story.
    Now before you or anyone else accuse me of promoting the gay lifestyle, allow me to also explain how I came to find it.
    Back when all the stuff with Kirk was first being disclosed, I set up a Google alert with his name. You can do that with any name or topic you wish. I’ve never gone back and deleted that alert, just like I haven’t deleted the other 20 or so alerts I have set up over the years.
    So I got an email with the link to the story about Boltz through Google alerts because Kirk’s name was mentioned.
    I sent the link to Doug because he has addressed the “shoot the wounded” mentality that SG has adhered to for so long. That’s all. I figured that once this information about Boltz spread through the SG world, his great songs like “Thank You” and “The Anchor Holds” that several SG artists have sung over the years would be immediately banned. It’ll be interesting to see if Boltz’s music will, in fact, be banned.
    So anyway, just wanted to let you know that I sent the link. Now it’s on me, I guess.

  32. Brett wrote:

    TO Robin, Cake looks good to eat but if poop was added do you still want to eat the cake. I will rid Ray Boltz cd because it is tainted from a person who is not in the Truth. I want no part of his life.

  33. GC wrote:

    brett? So people who were led to a personal relationship to Christ by “Anchor Holds” are not really saved? Are they also tainted?

  34. RobinAshley wrote:

    Brett…I understand, though I don’t agree, with the fact that Ray Boltz and his music may be “tainted” now for you. Still, this doesn’t justify throwing away music that is still JUST AS GOOD as it ever was. Give it away.

    I agree, GC (33), that the songs still hold up. He’s a great songwriter, what are ya gonna do? Oh, and your #30 absolutely cracked me up. I mean, I’m one of Mark’s biggest fans, but come on…(eyeroll).

  35. SGfan wrote:

    C,

    Thanks for clearing that up. I was not trying to attack Doug, nor will I attack you. I understand exactly where you are coming from. It just seemed to me that Doug is always quick to cite pieces that seem to uplift or validate the homosexual lifestyle and he often rejects anything that is to the contrary as (and I quote), “a telling indictment of the Christian press that it is virtually incapable of writing meaningfully about these sorts of stories.” You see, he never provides context by citing a story that is opposite to the pro-homosexual one to give any balance. That is the reason I brought up Dennis Jernigan and his website: http://www.dennisjernigan.com/

    I think Ray Bolz has written some incredible songs, and evern though he is flawed, the message in the songs is not. The same goes for Kirk Talley and anyone else that is living in sin. I find it amazing that God can use people inspite of themselves to touch and change others lives. Yet, that does not excuse the sin. All of us are guilty of sin, but it is when we choose to live in that sin instead of trusting God and allowing Him to live through us and bring us above or out of that sin. Again, we all have a predisposition to sin (the flesh), but we are called to live by the spirit and not of the flesh. All I am asking is that if Doug is going to continue to start these conversations, then bring some balance to the table. He is after all the “moderator”. He may not agree with what I have said, and that is fine. Everyone has the right to be wrong if they want to.

  36. Angie M wrote:

    #9: You would really toss the CD? If you toss the CD’s of all who have sinned or done something you disagree with, your CD collection will grow rather nonexistent. It’s a shame that you would get rid of music that must have ministered to you once for this reason.

  37. Dexter wrote:

    All hail Brett…most holy and high! Gimme’ a break! I too am single and 35…I really enjoy my solitude….sure….marriage has entered my mind…in fact I even picked out an engagement ring one time…but the relationship fell through…I think the thing that scares me is that divorce runs straight down the line on both sides of my family…I have see so much misery in my life come out of marriage that I think I’m scared of it….all in God’s time though…I may be married by next month…I may be 70….I may never do it…but right now…I love my space….to a full degree of selfishness!! MY house…MY couch…MY remote…. MINE MINE MINE!!! LOL (At least I can admit it huh?)

  38. Rick wrote:

    I pray for Ray to have protection from the stones that will be thrown by the self-righteous religious. Did not our Savior warn against this? BTW, there is a difference between those who believe homosexuality is sin, and yet have compassion for the gay person; and those who are ready to destroy someone from their lofty thrones of moral superiority. Both types are well-represented on this board.
    I said I wasn’t coming back here; but I just had to respond. Thanks.

  39. pk wrote:

    #32..perhaps you should listen one more time to the song “Thrown Away” on Ray’s Allegiance CD. Before you throw Ray away.

  40. irishlad wrote:

    I can’t see anywhere in the Bible where Jesus involved himself in gaybashing. No,but,some posters to this site revel in it .Seems when a particular sin is personally abhorrent to them it takes precedence over more mundane sins like lying,getting drunk,gluttony etc some or all of which carry the same death sentence.The next time some of you Bible literists tell even the smallest of white lies or inwardly salivatate after a pair of sexy legs stop and think.

  41. BUICK wrote:

    Some people seem to be missing the point. RB has “come out”. That means he is not merely acknowledging his same-sex attraction but his same-sex lifestyle of choice.

    That would be the same as if I “came out” and announced that I have been attracted to women other than my wife and that I have now decided to pursue those attractions and have sexual relations with people other than my wife.

    I’m pretty tired of the “army that shoots its wounded” line. That is over 50 years old and we can surely come up with something a bit fresher than that. But to continue the military analogy, this is like RB waving the white flag of surrender and giving in to the enemy. That is nothing but sad. Very sad.

    I would felt exactly the same when Michael English was exposed as an adulterer. I would feel the same if some high-profile Christian artist were to “come out” and say that he was tired of resisting the temptation to drunkenness or lying or lust or gossip or hatred or any other sin and he was now going to give in and simply indulge.

    The fact that RB has been tempted to homosexual sin is not the issue. The fact that he has announced publicly that he has chosen to leave his wife and family and live a homosexual lifestyle, is the issue.

  42. Mark Crary wrote:

    Buick no.41 You are dead on!!! Someone finally gets it. . . . Amen

  43. RobinAshley wrote:

    Buick (41)…I completely agree with you. I think we’ve all gotten a little off-topic, haha.

  44. AG wrote:

    Well said Buick!

  45. Brett wrote:

    Wow the attacks. Cool, do you really think that if I listen to his music, that I won’t be reminded he’s gay? I think it would hinder my walk with the Lord, because I dont need to be reminded of his living in sin. So for me it’s tainted. If he would say I am struggling with this sin I need prayer but he is choosing to stay in sin and my Bible tells me from such people turn away from. Sorry you want to make the narrow road to heave so wide, but in the end it seems right to man but in the end leads to hell.

  46. Brett wrote:

    Dexter, I am high and mighty, my Savior Jesus paid the price for my sin and I am equal with God’s Son because of what He did for me.

  47. Brett wrote:

    Dexter, wow you are selfish.

  48. Gospel Has Been wrote:

    I really don’t understand it. We love these people, Ray, Kirk, and others while they are enjoying sucess and we see what they want us to see, but then when something like this comes along we no longer want to listen to their songs and we want to spread the word about this person as quickly as we can disquising it as a PRAYER REQUEST when all it is is gossip that we can’t wait to share. Now the part I don’t understand is why we don’t like these people anymore? They are the same people we’ve loved but now we find out a little more about them but they are the SAME people.

  49. Snowy wrote:

    THE ANCHOR HOLDS…IN SPITE OF THE STORM

    I have journeyed
    Through the long, dark night
    Out on the open sea
    By faith alone
    Sight unknown
    And yet His eyes were watching me
    CHORUS:
    The anchor holds
    Though the ship is battered
    The anchor holds
    Though the sails are torn
    I have fallen on my knees
    As I faced the raging seas
    The anchor holds
    In spite of the storm
    Ive had visions
    Ive had dreams
    Ive even held them in my hand
    But I never knew
    They would slip right through
    Like they were only grains of sand

    I have been young
    But I am older now
    And there has been beauty
    That these eyes have seen
    But it was in the night
    Through the storms of my life
    Oh, thats where God proved
    His love to me

  50. Joe wrote:

    Buick has written one of the best posts (#41) I have seen on this board. And, he is exactly right. RB has made a private choice to live a life of blatant sin, then has also chosen to go puclic with it.

    Furthermore, to follow what Brett has written, Scripture enjoins us, as he so accurately wrote, to “turn away” from people who publicly choose to lead lives of sin. In fact, these sins are such that Scripture commands that these people be excommunicated from local churches, and that the others remaining have no fellowship with them (1 Cor. 5).

    Yes folks- it really is THAT serious. When we are asked to recover another taken by a “fault” (Gal. 6:1), that word is not used of these serious sins. Today’s worldly pattern of inclusion therapy goes against this big time; but it is also going against what God’s Word states, even if is not often being done.

    Rick said we should pray that RB would be protected by the stones thrown by the self-righteous. We need to pray for him in a much more serious way.

    We need to pray that he himself is not one of those people mentioned as hopelessly standing outside the locked door of Heaven, having claimed the Lord’s Name, and having done great things (written great songs) IN that same Name (Matt.7:21-23). In spite of some great songs, RB may actually have shown his true colors as one of these very people.

    If so, how terribly sad.

  51. gc wrote:

    I agree that “Buick” had a great post. So what do we call the gay artist who have not publicly ran out of the closet?

    The one thing that I appreciated about Kirk T’s situation is he admitted he was struggling..He could have lied and said he was saved from his same sex persona and spoke at every Church in the world on how God changed him.

    Still surprised that Ray Boltz is gay. never saw that one coming…I am also surprised that the original source all but outed Mark Lowry …

  52. Brett wrote:

    Here is the verse I use, Test all things; hold fast what is good. 1st Thess. 5:21 His music is now non meaningful to me because Ray is living in darkness. It doesn’t matter how well a song is written. Ray mocks the Power of God with the lifestyle he has chosen. Jesus paid an unbelievable price and Ray is not living for Christ in Spirit & Truth. These are not my word’s they are God’s.

  53. SGfan wrote:

    #52 Brett,

    I understand your position and dissappointment. But, I think you need to look at that verse a little more carefully. If you are testing Ray Bolz, the man, then of course he is going to fail. I am sure that you have probably failed to live up to the picture of God’s grace in your own life, as have we all. Ray has made a very bad decision, I agree. He has chosen to not allow God to be God in his life and has chosen his sin as his identity and I will not defend that. But that does not change the message in the songs. What you need to do is test the message in those songs. Does the message in those songs stand up to the test of scripture? If it does, then there is no need to throw that away. I would not go out and buy future CD’s, but what good is it going to do to destroy the CD’s you have already bought if the message on those CD’s is sound?

    I know it is easy to get angry when people like Ray Bolz and Kirk Talley turn out to not be who we thought they were. The last thing people like them need is someone throwing stones and condeming them to Hell. Their sin is doing enough of that. They need people that will show them the love of God and be examples of that work transforming them and picking them up out of their own sins. Jesus met sinners where they were and still today meets us (sinners) where we are. The point is, He has a way of changing us and transforming us into a reflection of His image and that is what people who struggle with the homosexual issue need most. They have an identity crisis. They need to be surrounded by examples of this transformation, they need prayer that breaks the strongholds those sins have in their lives, and they need a personal experiece with the Holy Spirit that redefines within themselves who they are so that the sin no longer is the definition of the person, but the definition becomes the work of grace in their lives. Lastly, they need people that say, I am still walking on the journey also and while my sin may not be the same as yours, I am still just as guilty of sin and together as a family in Christ, we will strive to become who God wants us to be and not who our sin says we are. That is how you overcome sin. That is how you help others to overcome sin. No one’s wounds ever get well by being beaten.

  54. irishlad wrote:

    I find it very hard to imagine Jesus in the company of drinkers,streetwalkers and other marginalized folk walking out when a gay person joined them. No doubt Paul would have done so, as he would instruct you to do,based on Leviticus and other OT scriptures. But Jesus? I seriously doubt it.

  55. Derek wrote:

    Maybe we need to start a SG version of “Cheaters” so we can all find out who these people are! I’d like to know…but I’d like to see some proof! Numbers 32:23 plainly says “be sure your sin will find you out.” ‘Nuff said!

  56. Jake wrote:

    # 54 Irishlad — I don’t usualy agree with you, but this time I think you are partly right. I don’t think Jesus would have “walked out” either. He spent time hanging out with publicans and sinners — BUT it is important to know that it was never out of acceptance of their sins or lifestyles, but His love reaching out to them to change them. He hung out with Zacchaues to change him. He called Matthew to change him. He forgave the woman caught in adultery to change her. And the list goes on and on.

    I used to enjoy listening to Ray Boltz. His music hasn’t really done anything for me in the past few years, but that is due to my musical tastes changing, not his music. I am shocked and grieved at the direction he has chosen to go with his life. I don’t believe God has forsaken him, but I also don’t believe God “accepts” and “understands” his wrong choices. If Jesus was still physically present here on earth I am sure He would spend time with Ray — to draw him back out of the sinful lifestyle he has gone into. And, as ambassadors of Jesus Christ, that should be our motive and goal as well. Not to write Ray Boltz off as “hellbound” or a “wicked pervert” to avoid, but to pray for him (most of us have no way to directly reach out to him) in the hope that he will see the error of his ways and return to being the man God wants him to be.

  57. BaritoneBob wrote:

    # 41 Buick, Great Post! Well said!

  58. Joe wrote:

    Jake and Irishlad-

    I might agree with you, that Jesus might not have walked out on a man who was having sex with another man. But, there are 2 huge reasons why He is to be viewed differently than you or I, and vice-versa.

    First of all, only He could truly forgive them, and save their souls in so doing. Only He could say “go, and sin no more”, and mean it.

    And secondly, as God, He was impervious to sin. He did no sin. He knew no sin. In Him there was no sin. He was Holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners.

    We are incapable of both of the above. And this is why the Scriptures enjoins us, as failing humans, susceptible to even sins as heinous as these, to remove ourselves from the presence of these folks. You can’t ignore Scripture. And this is what Scripture says we should do.

  59. irishlad wrote:

    Jake#56,careful,or the can of worms which is once saved always saved verses saved-sin-lost brigade could easily be opened up.

  60. irishlad wrote:

    #59 should have read versus.

  61. pastsupporterofsg wrote:

    I have never been to NQC, and from all that I read, I never want to go. It sounds like it is just a meeting ground for gays, lesbians, and married and single people just looking for someone to sleep with. But in saying that, if that were true would God bless that event year after year? But I think I’ll stay home and keep my family there too. At least I know what we do in our own home.

  62. UKCatsfan wrote:

    First of all, I’ve read this blog for over two years, never posted but always enjoyed the discussions. But, I feel obligated to post on this thread.

    I am a huge fan of gospel music, was brought up listening to all of the old Gospel groups, The Cathedrals, The Blackwoods, The Nelons, The Goodmans, The Oak Ridge Boys (both Gospel and Country), etc. Eventually, I graduated college and starting working in the field doing studio work in Nashville, some promotional stuff, and a few other things. I had the honor of meeting and working with some of the biggest names in Gospel Music. Bill Gaither said it bestw when he quoted Hovie Lister from an interview: the interview asked Hovie if he was in the ministry or if he was in show business. Hovie answered, “yes and yes, next question.” When a group makes it big, ie going mainstream, an unavoidable side effect is loosing the straight ministry feel and it taking on more a business perpsective. That, I don’t believe, dilutes any of the message in the music.

    Now, gospel music is probably the worst when i comes to perpetuating rumors about the performers. Whether it be drinking, smoking, cheating, cussing, being gay, etc. I know A LOT of gospel singers, most are upright, faithful individuals who are FLAWED. Does that make them any less of a person, of course not. We just tend to put people on a pedestal and it’s unfair to the performers. There’s absolutely no way they could live up the expecatations we, as fans, have for them. The only expectations they have to live up are the ones they believe God has for them.

    I’m single and thouroughly enjoy the single life. I know that I’ll probably never marry for two reasons. I firmly beleive some people aren’t cut our for marriage. Marriage is hard work, lots of sacrificing and I’m just not that type of person. The other reason is that it’s illegal. That’s right folks, I’m gay, string me up! HAHA, sorry couldn’t resist. Do I think it’s a sin, no. Do I care what you all think of me, have to say no to that too. One of God’s greatest gifts is our intellect. Read the Bible in the context in which it was written. The Bible, in the new testament, condones slavery. Does that make it right, of course not. The Bible has been used for centuries to persecute people who were on the margins of society. First women, then blacks, now gays. I don’t really care because the most important aspect of my life is my personal relationship with Jesus Christ, not that I’m gay, not what other people think of me. And believe it or not folks, I DO have a deep faith and practice it every day. I commend Ray Boltz on his decision. I can state from experience it wasn’t an easy one for him to make. There is a comandment against lying, which is what we all do (as gay people) when we pretend to be straight. As far as I know, Moses didn’t chisel “Thou shall not be gay” into those tablets. Jesus never one time mentioned it. In fact, in all the bible, there are 6 verses that even address the subject. There are dozens more that address lying, adultry, hipocrisy, divorce even, Jesus hated divorce. Of course we don’t think someone is going to hell because of divorce. That’s because times have changed. Do I think divorce is right, no . But sometimes it’s inevitible. Should a woman stay with a man that is beating her? Of course not. Do we still think that when a man dies, his widow is supposed to marry her deceased husband’s brother? No, that’s because in the society that passage was written, that’s what was expected. You don’t have to agree with Ray Boltz’s life, but, the fact that he’s gay doent’ make him a horrible person, or any less of a blessing through his music.

  63. SGfan wrote:

    # 58 Joe

    I think you are partially right. I agree that Jesus is the only one that can forgive sins. He is the one who paid the price. The problem is in your second assertation that He was impervious to sin. You see, when he took on the flesh, He was tempted just like we are. The difference is, He did not fall to the temptation. He had to do that, so that when He went holy and blameless to the cross, He could take on our sins. He carried our sins to the cross. Scripture does call us to be seperate from those that commit such heinous sins, but I suspect the context is a little different than you think. You can’t take one chapter out of the Bible and base a theology on it. Over and over, the Bible talks about loving people and over and over it talks about hating sin. A person committing such sins can not have an active role in the church. That would be wrong. They do however, need the church more than ever to be a reflection or image of God and His ability to transform lives. After all, it is in His image that we are created. Bottom line - God hates sin, but God loves people. As a people created in his image and as a people being transformed by the work of grace to reflect that image more closely, we have to do the same. We have to hate the sin, but love the sinner.

  64. sgused2b wrote:

    dear Brett.
    I don’t care if you throw out Boltz Cd’s or not…..but your rationing isn’t quite rationale……..
    Anyone remember the great songwriter Dawn Thomas…..”I Am Not Ashamed of the Gospel”–lesbian–but wrote probably the greatest evangelist song ever along with countless others you would recognize! Even the melody for Amazing Grace was discovered in a brothel. I am not saying schedule Boltz for your next Gospel Revival but the truth in a song if founded on the Eternal Word of God, will stand and accomplish what God intends. Having formerly worked in SG publishing/writing, I would hate to dump on your favorite song parade, or song-writer, you might have to trash your whole collection! And please quote scripture in context!

  65. sgused2b wrote:

    Dear Joe.
    Matt 7: 21-33 “in context is written to the Jew who has rejected Christ” In fact, the book of Matthew if you would notice on the index to where it says “To whom written”..it tells us to the Jew. Now of course all scripture is for our good and written from 3 vantage points, historically, doctrinally, and spiritually (practically). But one must be careful to apply doctrine that was meant for the Jews to the Church (us saved by grace). Now there is another scripture in Rev. to back up your illustration, those found at the Great White Throne Judgment.

  66. Disappointed wrote:

    I’ve never posted a comment on any blog so I had to come up with a name. Disappointed says it all for me. I am saddened when an individual professes to be a child of God, uses talents given by God to mislead and once they reach a pinnacle of success, “come out of the closet” whether it be announcing they are gay or have committed adultery, whatever the sin may be. While we should not cast stones, it’s hard to turn a deaf ear to what is going in not only Gospel music, but also in many forms of ministry on small and large scales. Our society has become so complacent to sin! God Bless America I pray!!

  67. JM wrote:

    For those who have yet to read the entire article in the Washington Blade, I would encourage you to do so by clicking on the link in Doug’s initial post. That being said, there is a specific element of this discussion that I find most disturbing. It is the juncture where RB embraces his sin, rather than rejects it. His rationale is that God made him this way; therefore, his gay tendencies cannot be wrong or sinful. This is an amazing glitch in RB’s sense of God’s design. The perverse logic would go something like this: I love God and God loves me. I was created in God’s image and likeness, so all that is within me is of God. Though some impulses, tendencies and desires are against God’s word, he put those impulses in me; therefore, whatever these impulses are and however I wish to express them is in keeping with God’s design and purpose. Therefore, despite my Gay lifestyle choice, I am a Christian.

    Time and time again, Christians have been sidetracked by ego and self-conceit. Only God is the measure of all things, not man. Sin is not determined by the whim of man or the desire of the moment. Rather, God’s Word explicitly details the width and breadth of man’s sinful exploits. And while I join with many of you in praying that God will send the convicting power of the Holy Spirit to minister to RB, homosexuality is sin. It is not a lifestyle, alternate way of living or being sexuality unfeddered. It is simply sin. And by the way, should all SGM artists and their families, friends and neighbors be gay or adulterous, sin is still sin. Look it up in the Book!

  68. SGfan wrote:

    #62 UKCatsfan

    All I can say is I’ll pray for you. You are one of those people that have decided to let a sin define who you are instead of letting God define you. You said the Bible only has 6 verses that address the issue. Yet, the subject as a whole is sexual immorality and the Bible is very clear on that subject. You see, you can’t pick and choose which areas in your life you will allow God to be God of. It’s either all or nothing. By trying to live in a duality, you are trying to pick and choose. Finally, when the Bible calls your particular sin detestable (1 Kings 14:24) it means just that. There is no such thing as historical context when it comes to sin. God is the same yeseterday, today, and forever. Homosexuality was wrong then, its wrong now, and will forever be sin. Homosexuality does not equate to being black or a woman as you tried to draw a parallel. People have in the past used the Bible out of context to defend many horrible things including slavery. However, you are trying to draw a parallel that simply is not there. The Bible never calls being Black or being a woman a sin. It does however refer to homosexuality as a sin. Finally, you brought up the issue of lying saying , “There is a comandment against lying, which is what we all do (as gay people) when we pretend to be straight.” You are right in that you should not live a lie, but by choosing to live the homosexual lifestyle you are in fact living a lie. You are not living as God created you but as your sin defines you. Sin is not an easy thing for any of us to handle, but if it were would any of us grow? We all are predisposed to sin, but again we have to choose to be conformed to God’s image in order to live above that predisposition. Homosexuality just does not fit and has no place in that image.

  69. Joe wrote:

    SGfan #63-

    I’m sorry, my friend- but you are wrong. 1 Cor. 5 gives explicit commands to “put away from among you the wicked person”, and have no fellowship with them. Don’t even eat a meal with them. This is to maintain the sanctity of God’s assembly. Not my words. The Lord’s.

    And if you are suggesting that Jesus COULD have sinned, but never did, you are wrong again. He was blameless, without spot (outward) or blemish (inward). In John 14:30, He tells His disciples “…the prince of this world (Satan) comes, and he has nothing in me.” You might have read right over this, and missed what He is saying. It literally means that there was NOTHING in Him (ie: no sinful nature) that could even possibly respond to the temptations of the evil one.

    James reinforces this, when in chap. 1, he states “God cannot be tempted by evil”. Jesus was/is God, and as such, could not be tempted by evil. There was no sinful nature in Him.

    There are multiple Scriptures which would advise us to stay far away from a brother or sister proudly living in such open and blatant sin.

  70. brad wrote:

    i have always loves Ray Boltz. Have sang his songs for years. It hurt to read that article. I pray he allow God to work in his life but hes headed the wrong way.

  71. cdguy wrote:

    I’m SOOOOOO grateful for the promise that God’s Word would “not return void”. So whether a song, book, story, (whatever) was written by an audulterer, homosexual, liar, thief, whatever (Paul says we “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”), or if the song was sung by a sinner, it can still be used of God to bless our spirits or teach us some truth.

    I we’re going to throw out RB’s recordings, we may as well throw out every cd and book we own, since they ALL come from fallible humans. Only the Bible would remain.

    I don’t think God would have us throw the baby out with the bath water.

  72. cdguy wrote:

    OOPS! First word of second paragraph should have been “If”.

    Sorry.

  73. sgused2b wrote:

    UkCatsFAN, I hate that you are go mis-guided. Living in unconfessed sin is a very serious situation. If ANY Child of God lives in such a way, with sin that is unconfessed and unrepentant, the scripture says in Psalms that “if I regard iniguity in my heart, He (God) cannot hear me” meaning He doesn’t even choose to hear our prayers.

    But on the otherhand, Jesus did tell us to be “in the world” just “not of it”. Hard to be light on light, salt on salt. Sadly, alot of Christians and Churches are neither. We must be in it, but not of it! They’ve created their own little safe sub-cultured cocoon, without getting into the sick, lost and dying world and sharing the hope of Jesus Christ.

  74. irishlad wrote:

    #62.Good on you,you’re a brave man. No one, no matter what scriptures they quote about homosexual behaviour being a sin,can ever to any level of satisfaction,prove to me or anyone else that Ukcatsfan or folk like him were not made that way. The people who wrote those archaic laws had no knowlege of modern medicine including sexuality that we understand today.

  75. Inigo Montoya wrote:

    #62 UKCatsfan,
    Are you saying we should cut Ray slack because he’s gay but “hate” him because he’s divorced? Please clarify.

  76. UKCatsfan wrote:

    #68, Sgfan

    You’re exactly right on nearly everyone of your points. The Bible does not say that it is a sin to be black, or to be a woman. Why then are women subjectated in the ministry? Why then are churches still basically segregated? You are exactly right when you say we shouldn’t pick and choose what verses to follow, cafetria christians so to speak. In the new testament, Jesus says to take ALL you have and give to the poor. Have you emptied your bank account out? Do you give your entire paycheck to a ministry? And, I do covet your prayers, but not for my homosexuality. I covet prayers for my ability to understand people and TRY to convey to them that, in the very simplest of terms, we’re not living in 40 AD. But, the most important point I feel you made is this: and i quote you, “God is the same yesterday and today” That He is my friend. However, today we don’t still think it’s a sin to eat a schrimp or for a man to shave. At least I don’t, and I highly doubt you do either.

  77. Harry Peters wrote:

    #62 UKCatsFan, Old Harry Peters is proud of you and you have represented yourself well. It is unfortunate that the Gospel has been used as a weapon so often throughout history. I worshipped in the Episcopal Church on Sunday and the New Testatment Reading and Scripture was about the Master who forgave the slave his debt of 10,000 denari and then the slave went out and had a guy that owed him 100 denari thrown in jail. These homophobic, religious zealots could learn a lot from that scripture, or the Lord’s Prayer, for that matter. “Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.” I don’t believe for one minute that being gay is a choice. Most of the gay people that I know are far brighter than average and I don’t believe a bright person would choose a sexual orientation that society is so hard on. Harry Peters is happy to embrace you as a brother. There is plenty of room in the family and it is big enough for all of us.

  78. UKCatsfan wrote:

    #75, Of course you shouldn’t hate Ray Boltz because he’s divorced, or because he’s gay. The point I was trying to make was actually made by Sgfan, we can’t pick and choose what “sins” we think are sins and aren’t. The Bible clearly reads that the only reason for divorce is adultry, and other reason is sin. I attended a First Baptist Church for many years. Probably well over 40 percent of the congreation were in their second marriages, some in their third. Two deacons ex-wives attended the same church! Nothing was ever said of this “sin.” Times change, laws change, societal norms change. That’s what I was trying to get across, evidently with no success. To sum it all up, we need to be more vigilant in deliniating what the Bible “says” and what the Bible “reads.”

  79. irishlad wrote:

    #69 1cor.5 were not the Lord’s words but Paul’s, an ordinary sinful man just like you or me with a big thorn in his flesh(could’ve been a closet gay for all we know)to boot,just a very clever guy who had everyone below his intelligence blinded by theological science. He even had you thinking his words were God’s.

  80. UKCatsfan wrote:

    One more thing, divorce happens. It’s awful but sometimes marriages just aren’t meant to be. And, personally, I feel that the ramapant rate of divorce makes far worse a mockery of marriage than gay marriage would. Of course, that’s just my ever so humble opinion.

  81. Joe wrote:

    To JM and UKCats fan-

    I am so sorry, but there is no such thing as being a “gay” Christian. If you feel that there are only 6 verses in Scripture that apply to this sin, then you haven’t read your Bibles.

    The entire last half of Romans 1 deals with this sin. In fact, Paul describes AIDS 1900 years before it was first diagnosed.

    Clearly, the cure for this sin is being washed by the blood of Christ. This is what occurred to some in the Corinthian church (1 Cor. 6:11). They HAD been homosexuals- then, they got saved.

    Scripture as well clearly states that if anyone is in Christ, they have become a new creation; old things are passed away, and ALL things become new.

    As SGfan said so clearly- to be publicly identified with this choice of lifestyle, is simply stating that you are letting a sin define your entire being, rather than being defined by the Lord.

    Someone who is publicly stating they are living their lives being directly driven by this sin, and then telling others that they are “Christians”, are doing nothing more than living a lie.

  82. Joe wrote:

    Irishlad;

    What Paul wrote WERE the commandments of the Lord. He said so himself; probably anticipating the arguments of skeptics as yourself. See 1 Cor. 14:37.

    Please remember three things. Paul saw the Lord with his own eyes. Her heard His voice with his own ears. And he was caught up into Heaven, and then returned. And you and I have done none of those 3 things.

    Pick and choose away the verses you don’t agree with, and all you end up with is the Irishlad Obliterated Version.

    ALL Scripture is given by the inspiration of God….

  83. UKCatsfan wrote:

    Ok, a couple of rebuttals. Firt to Irishlad in #79. I know well Paul’s words and, trust me, I can distinguish Paul’s words from the Words of Christ. Christ’s words were never so filled with hate and bigotry as Paul’s. But you hit on an interesting point, many prominent theologians believe Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” was that he was in fact gay. Why else would he hate women so much? HAHA, sorry, that was my attempt at humor. Trust me, I am NOT below Paul’s intelligence nor am I “thinking his words are God’s.”

    Now, Joe’s #81 post. Allow me to make an assumption, you are a Biblical Literalist I would wager to guess. If that’s the case, there is no way we are ever going to come to an agreement because I am, in no way, a literalist. However, I do want to address a couple of things you said. My being gay in no way defines who I am, no more than being not gay defines yours. My being gay is just a small part of me. Or, if you do equate being gay with sin, it would be like defining a person by any sin they commit, saying a curse word for example. It would be like walking up saying, Hey, I’m John and I’m a cusser.” I do not volunteer the information to most people that I’m gay, however, if they ask, I tell them because I DO think lying is a sin. Also, did you know that there is absolutely no word for Homosexuality in the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramic texts in which the Bible was originally writtend. That was added when King James ordered his first translation. And, as we all know, King James was a notorious male chauvinist and bigot.

    And, for the record, I take offense in your saying it’s impossible to be a gay christian. You do not know me or my heart sir. Leave that call to someone a little more qualified than yourself.

  84. SGfan wrote:

    #69 Joe,

    Maybe you need to re-read what I wrote. I never said Jesus could have sinned, but that He was tempted by sin in the same way we are, and He had to be. Might I suggest you read Matthew 4 again. The fact is He had to live a sinless life in order to make Him the worthy sacrifice, but He also had to take on the full robe of humanity. That was the only way He could take our sins to the cross. I am very aware of what 1 Cor. 5 says. But in context, the letter was written to the church at Corinth. The letter suggest that these actions may have been happening amognst those in leadership at the church. You see you can take just one passage and try to back up anything, but you have to weigh everything together. Let’s use the passage from 1 Cor. 5:11 as a example. That verse says, “But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.” You see, if you take that verse alone, then all of us should be cast out of the church. Greed and selfishness is the root of any sin you can point to. I do not condone RB’s actions nor do I condone the sin that our dear friend UKCatsfan is living in. I do recognize that their sin, as is all of ours, is based in a selfishness or greed in trying to displace God as God.

    #75 UKCatsfan
    You are again taking a verse out of context when you cite Jesus’s instructions to the rich young ruler, but let me answer you this way. God is God of every aspect of my life including my finances. So anything that is in my bank account is because God allowed it to be there. I am not praying for your homosexuality, as you suggest. I am praying that you will have a revelation from God that reveals who he sees when he looks at you. Again, homosexuality is a sin. I am not praying for your sin, but against it and the stronghold it has in your life. By the way, the eating shrimp thing, here is the answer to that subject. Read Romans 14 and Acts 11. I believe you will find that helpful.

  85. UKCatsfan wrote:

    HAHA, you’re good Sgfan. I bet we could have some great debates. I’m very familiar with Romans 14 and Acts 11. I was just using the old Levitical codes as a point of jest. Again a failed attempt at humor. I may be gay, but not very funny I guess. ;)

  86. Brett wrote:

    The men of the city looked on with lust when the angles visited Lot , and the Bible said it was wrong. Yes, I say throw out Boltz cd because he is choosing to stay gay and live in that liestyle. If he repents and turns away then it is accepting to listen to his music. CD what does this have to do with SG who serve God truthfully and are saved. Give me a break with we shouls throw all cd’s away. Only those we know willingly particpate in sin and will not change, God says to turn away. Sorry that you all want to play middle of the road. God wants you prefers you to be hot, not cold or lukewarm. Maybe some of you need to re-examine whether or not you are in the Truth!

  87. Brett wrote:

    Sorry some of my keys stuck together as I typed my message but you get the gist of what I am saying.

  88. Brett wrote:

    Our CCM, now has banned playing Boltz, goes right in line with that Jeff & Sherri Easter song, what you reap is what you sow.

  89. Joe wrote:

    OK, UKCatsfan-

    Let’s look at this honestly.

    You are totally wrong when you say that there is no such word for homosexuality in the original languages of Scripture. In fact, it is in all of them. Manuscripts that predate King James by well over a thousand years have this word in all of them. The same word is used to describe this sin as is used to describe bestiality, by the way- an abomination.

    If bestiality is unnatural, so is homosexuality. Sex was created by God. For procreation. How many offspring have homosexuals produced (without the help of AI?) Where would the human race be if this was the “natural” way to do things?

    There is absolutely no doubt that this sin has caused the spread of a fatal STD unknown until the 1970’s. How is this natural?

    Ezekiel lists the sins of Sodom, for which it was annihilated. We may assume that homosexuality was #1 on the list. We would assume wrongly. The first sin mentioned in connection with the abominations of Sodom, was PRIDE. Any wonder why this is the singular human emotion affixed to the homosexual movement? “Gay pride” has almost become a single-word phrase. Please look up Ezekiel 16:48-49. The abomination of homosexuality is mentioned last. Pride before God is mentioned first.

    What the apostle Paul wrote were the commandments of the Lord. It is stated this in 1 Cor. 14:37. You may accept this. If you do not, then read verse 38. Please also read Romans 1. In man’s willful walk away from God, lifting the creature above the Creator, Paul accurately states that homosexuality is the pinnacle of this sinful progression.

    You may be offended as you wish in my saying that you cannot be a gay Christian. I didn’t say it. The word of God says it.

    1 Cor. 6:11- “…abusers of themselves with mankind…shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Rev. 22:27- “and there shall in no wise enter into it (Heaven) anything that defiles, nor works an abomination…”

    1 John 5:18- “We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning…”

    These are 3 verses only. I can find dozens more. Your problem, my friend, is not with me. It is with the Lord Himself.

  90. SGfan wrote:

    #85 UKCatsfan

    Thanks for the props. A debate would be fun, although I fear you would be outmatched, LOL!!!! I understand what you were trying to do with the Levitical codes, but even they have to be looked at in the context of scripture as a whole. In the end, this subject brings out the best and worst in people. Some would just count you as loss and move forward. I have seen too many people that have been delivered from homosexuality and have become great assetts to the kingdom of God. My prayer is that the same will happen in your life. Even if that is not what you want, I believe that is what God wants. You can run, and you do have the free will to choose. God does not force His will on anyone.

  91. Wade wrote:

    UKcatsfan… God Bless You!!! Even God Bless dr joe… But UKcatsfan…don’t waste your time with the Doc. He likes bulling gay ppl. I wished he would be so judgmental on ALL THE OTHER SINS IN THE BIBLE.

    He still has not answered Oh Harry Peters question. I love it when Bible Bullies are confused by the facts.

  92. Joe wrote:

    Wade- We’re not talking about all the sins in the Bible. We’re (again) talking about homosexuality, because Doug (again) started it.

    And I have no idea what you are talking about, me not answering Harry’s question. In the last 5 threads, Harry has not asked me any questions.

  93. Woody wrote:

    I have loved Ray Boltz for a long time and will continue to love him. In fact, because I love him, I pray that God will not give him a moment’s rest until he repents and turns back to Him. Those of us who care do not want to see him lost for eternity because he has embraced what God calls sin. I trust that God will not turn him over to his false sense of peace while living in sin.

    Along with others, I will continue to battle my own grievous sins. May there never come a day when I embrace and excuse them in the name of “honesty” but may we all continue to battle the prince of darkness and his lies.

  94. Wade wrote:

    dr joe… Avery Made Me Do it Huh??? Think we covered that too!!! LoL:-))

    But Dh doesn’t make you a judgmental turgid mule.

    I will let Harry Peters restate his question.

    But it’s pretty funny that you seem to find everything else you are an expert on.

    Harry… although you chided him and I have now 3 times please restate your question. Maybe it will take dr joe away from bullying, bashing & judging the gay ppl for a while.

  95. SGfan wrote:

    Just got through reading Doug’s update. Still shows how fundamentally wrong he is on this debate as well. He tries to draw parallels as many in the homosexual community do between their struggle for acceptance and the past issues of slavery and women’s rights. These don’t even begin to equate. Doug, some truths just stand the test of time and those are the truths of scripture. Instead of backing a flawed philosophy while trying to portray yourself as a Christian, how about try learning what that title represents? Learn what THE WORD has to say on the subject. In the end truth always wins.

  96. SGFAN65 wrote:

    UKCatsfan - I wish I could have “come out” in this blog as effectively as you have done. I can only say that I, too, am a Gay Christian - and yes - I believe with all of my heart that Gay Men and Women can be Christians. There are too many of us doing so many great things for the cause of Christ. God is Love and Loves us ALL.

    Harry Peters - All Chrisitans - or so called christians that post here - should have your attitude of Love and Compassion. Your response in post #77 brought tears to my eyes. If everyone could have the understanding that you seem to have that being Gay is NOT a choice, what a much more pleasant world we would have to live in.

    Why would we choose to be unaccepted and condemned by the church and it’s people ? You can never know how I feel inside as a Gay Man until you’ve walked in my shoes and experienced my life as I have. I would have NEVER NEVER NEVER chose to be gay. It’s who and what I am. It’s only a small part of who I am - but it’s still a part of me. I, like countless millions of others, believe without a shadow of a doubt that I was born gay.

    I don’t worry about trying to satify holier than thou christians. I am working to make God the Father pleased with me.
    Judgements against people like me - are very hurtful and far worse than you can ever imagine.

    After many years in the SG business - I chose to be open and honest about my orientation. That was the only choice I made - and because of that choice, I am no longer “welcome” to minister and sing as I once did. That is why so many of the gay men and women in SG music remained closeted - because the fear of losing an opportunity to fulfill their calling outweighs being true to the world around them.

    Judge not - lest ye be judged - speaks volumes of God’s intentions for us. Why can’t we adhere to that - rather than casting the stones as is being done here ?

    God is Love - and no respector of persons. There’s not any conditions on HIS love and for Whom he Loves.

    Some of the biggest and most popular people on stage - in the recording studios - behind the pianos - even driving the buses - are gay - and giving their lives for the Cause of Christ. Unfortunately the judgemental rationale of so many so called christians - prevent them from being open and honest.

    The SGM Industry would have to shut down tomorrow if all of the Gay Men and Women had to leave because of their orientation. Wouldn’t that be a sad state of affairs - and no further need for this blog for sure.

    Doug - thanks for bringing these type articles to our attention and giving us an open forum to respond.

    It’s not a CHOICE - it’s as much a part of our lives’ as the breath we breathe.

  97. UKCatsfan wrote:

    Ok, Joe. You have become so offensive that this is the last time that I will respond to anything YOU post. However, since you have attacked me personally and become so offensive and judgemental as to say that I have a problem with God and not you, I can become just as offensive. You really put me in the mind of a person named Ted Haggard. Heard of him? How about the the Shakespeare quote “Me thinks he doeth protest too much?” It staggers me at which the lengths people will go to to use the Bible to support their own ignorances and prejudices. Of all the verses you quoted only one even MARGINALLY deals with homosexuality.

    And the fact that you compare me with a person that engages in beastality is appalling. I’m not even going to comment further on that statement.

    I suppose you think AIDS is God’s way of punishing homosexuality. You are DEAD WRONG buddy. And I state that unequovically and without hiesitation. Is it a baby’s fault that is born to a mother that was a drug addict that got AIDS from a shared needle? Is it the fault of the 75 year old man that got AIDS from a blood transfusion? Is it the wife’s fault that contracted HIV from her husband who, because he’s living a lie, contracted it from a seedy one night stand and passed it on to her? That statement is so filled with hate that I won’t even pursue it any further with you.

    You mentioned Gay Pride. You’re darn right I’m proud of who I am. Not proud because I’m gay (although I’m in no way ashamed of it). But proud because I’m honest, forthright, and confident that I can withstand any onslaught people like you can throw at me. You’re opinion of me or my “lifestyle” matters NONE to me.

    So, I will pray for YOU! You obviously have some issues to work through. The fact that you use any verse in the Bible that even vaguely deals with sin and apply it to homosexuality says volumes. So, I will pray that God will open your eyes to see that their are bigger issues to deal with my friend. How about feeing the hungry, sending Bibles overseas, or learning to actually READ the Bible for what it IS, not what you want it to be. You want a real eye-opening experience. Go and volunteer in an AIDS hospice for a few hours. I guarantee you’ll never feel more humbled in your life.

    Oh, and Sgfan. Thanks for your words. While we obviously don’t agree, you have never once stooped to the hatemongering others have. That shows your character my friend. Oh, and don’t be so sure you would be outmatched. HAHA

    And Harry Peters. I appreciate your having my back. Whether your gay or not! HAHA

    Wade as well, thanks for your kind words and support.

    Oh, and sorry for the delay in this post. I was out living in my abominable lifestyle. ;)

  98. irishlad wrote:

    #83 Ouch UkCatsfan,read my post again my comment was not directed toward you.

  99. UKCatsfan wrote:

    Oh, mine wasn’t directed at you either irishlad. Sorry if miscommunicated something. No worries.

  100. Harry Peters wrote:

    Dr. Joe, You are a good Bible Totin’, scripture quotin’ man with a literalistic view of the Bible. I think I can probably also infer that you believe the Bible to be the inerrent word of God. I have a question for you that people who believe like you do have never been able to answer.

    Literalists believe that God created the human race in the garden of eden by creating Adam and Eve. The Bible tells us that Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Abel. With no further explanation, we are told that Cain and Abel had children. So my question is, did they commit incest or are their things that the Bible doesn’t tell us and God created more people than Adam and Eve? If the Bible leaves out something here or there, how can it be literally true and inerrent?

    Now don’t get old Harry Peters wrong. The Bible is God’s Word and it is the best account of it that we have. However, throughout the history of the church there have been arguments over what belongs in the Bible and what doesn’t. St. John, almost didn’t make it. The Gospel according to Judith almost did make it. Does it threaten your faith to consider the possiblilty that the Bible is not 100 percent literally true? Afterall, consider the parables, which by definition are not literally true.

    Inquiring minds, my good doctor.

  101. Joe wrote:

    UKCatsFan-

    Not only proud, but angry. I am very sorry if what I have written has upset you. But God annihilated Sodom and Gomorrha for what you are proud and angry about.

    Not a single thing I have written is my own personal thoughts or conjectures. I have quoted the Word of God, and you have outright rejected it.

    I posted a graphic medical post about AIDS, and the medical truths behind it, but it did not get posted. That’s OK.

    What matters most, the final determinant, is what God says. And you have shown us all that you have categorically rejected what God has written.

    Once again, your problem is not with me. You may argue with me, attack me, flame out against me…and I am just nothing more than a convenient target.

    Your problem is with God. Please don’t waste your time coming up with what you plan to say to me next. Instead, work on what you’re going to say to HIM, as you stand before Him one day, and He asks you why you have stubbornly rejected what He has so carefully documented and written, covering the entire history of mankind. As Romans 1 states so clearly, you will be “without excuse”.

    I will pray for you, that the Lord in His gracious mercy will save your soul. I would love to meet you one day in Heaven.

  102. Jim2 wrote:

    Harry,
    I’ll leave the answer to Joe, but just for a second, consider the ridiculousness of your statement:
    “If the Bible leaves out something here or there, how can it be literally true and inerrent? ”
    When we consider what God knows, if everything WAS included, we wouldn’t have read what happened past the first week.
    You strain too hard at the gnat, my friend. It just kills me that we choose nitpicky arguments like this as a ploy to ignore the truth that is very clearly given

  103. jgurnett wrote:

    Casting aside the issue of whether being homosexual is a sin, my question to those homosexuals on this site is this: Does sin enter the equation at all? Is it okay to be homosexual but not enter into homosexual practices? Or, does being a homosexual and believing God created one that way give one the right to explore and live out a homosexual lifestyle?

    I’m asking in all seriousness.

  104. Howland Sharpe wrote:

    Thought of something this morning. It has always seemed strange to me how abruptly Terry Franklin left the GVB. And now I see he didn’t show up at the recent GVB video taping. Perhaps he knew something about Mark Lowrey that made him steer clear. Don’t know the answer but, judging from his website he seems pretty conservative and probably has a problem with the gay stuff.

  105. SGfan wrote:

    UKCatsfan,

    Your words-”You’re darn right I’m proud of who I am.” I thought you said earlier that homosexuality does not define you, yet here it does once again. In all honesty, Joe is probably a well meaning person, and his scriptural references are for the most part correct, although some context is missing. There are people that will slam you no matter how you live your life and I do understand that, however that does not excuse us if we live in a life of sin. I could sit here all day long and beat you over the head with the Bible, but that will do you no good. We’ve established that you do not view the Bible the same way I do, so really the only thing I or anyone else can do is to pray for you, show you the love of Christ and allow you to witness the transformation He makes in my life. There are many things in my life that I would have defended before as being a part of who I am that were nothing more than sin and because of that transformative work called grace, they are no longer an issue. My prayers are with you and against those strongholds in your life. I will ask you to do one thing though. Seek God. Not like everyone else says, but whole heartedly and earnestly seek Him. You’ll be suprised the changes that happen in your life over a short time.

    SGFAN65 ,

    Your right in one thing. You never had one moment where you chose to be gay. But no one ever has one moment where they choose to be an alcoholic, drug addict, porn addict, or even a compulsiv lier. It is sort of a process that happens, but that does not change the fact that each one is a life of sin. You were no more born homosexual than I was born an alcoholic. What you were born with is a predisposition to sin, we all are. I challenge you to do the same thing that I challenged UKCatsfan to do. Seek God. I don’t mean by praying to Him 2 times a day and “asking the blessing” before you eat. Ask God what He wants in your life and seek after Him with reckless abandonment. I feel you’ll be suprised also. You may hear Him say that you were wrong about the homosexuality thing, but I guarantee if you do hear Him say that, you will hear Him say that He is far more than capable to deliver you from that.

  106. AG wrote:

    To add to Jim2’s post (#102), In John 21:25 he recorded that if he were to record all of the “many other things which Jesus did…the WORLD itself could not contain the books that should be written”.

    The bible contains what we currently need to know.

  107. Joe wrote:

    Harry-

    I almost hesitated in answering your question…the inanity of it, interjected into a discussion this serious, seems like a waste of time. As Jim2 has correctly stated, this question is a “strain at gnat and swallow a camel” question. You have asked it, while at the same time, you are slapping on the back every homosexual you know, throwing out huge sections and principles of the Word of God to do so.

    God plainly told Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and multiply” (a command, by the way, He could never have given to 2 homosexuals…). Adam lived 930 years, and Genesis 5:4 states that they produced a large number of offspring.

    The world, the universe, runs on God’s laws. There was no law against incest until the time of Moses. Even Abraham married his half-sister (Genesis 20:12). Even though sin had come in and tainted the entire human race from Eden on, apparently there was not the question or concern of genetic malformations through inbreeding, while the human genetic pool was still young.

    There was simply no other way for the human race to proceed, without natural brothers taking natural sisters to wife.

    The first laws against incest, all forms of same, are found in Lev. 18:7-17; 20:11-12, 14, 17, 20-21; Deut. 22:30; 27:20, 22, 23. Here, sexual relations with a mother, father, stepmother, sister, brother, half-brother, half-sister, granddaughter, daughter-in-law, son-in-law, aunt, uncle, or brother’s wife are clearly forbidden.

    Interestingly enough, since you seem to be suggesting that Cain and his sister/wife were guilty of incest, the chapters I have listed for you above, where laws against incest were clearly given, also include the very same clear injunctions against homosexuality and bestiality. These sins are described as abomination, confusion, defilement, and iniquity. They are mentioned back-to-back, almost in the same breath.

    Harry- with all due respect: what you need more than an “inquiring mind” is a believing heart. You need to simply accept God at His Word, and not go your own way.

    America, the entire world…has become politically and socially forced into accepting this sin as “normal”. To do so, evaporates ALL the writings and history of Scripture, and the plain wishes and commands of our Creator.

    Billy Graham, in discussing this country’s fascination with and acceptance of this totally unnatural and disgusting lifestyle, said this: “If the Lord doesn’t soon judge the USA, He’s going to have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrha.”

  108. SGfan wrote:

    Just a quick note to our friend Harry Peters:

    You can believe if you want to the Bible is incomplete. I however do not believe that. You seem to missing the point though. There are themes of scripture and one thing that is not missing from the Bible is the ethicity of this subject of homosexuality. The Bible is very clear on what God’s view of it is as well as on all sexual immorality or any other sin. Quit trying to rationalize and make something be there that is not or make something that is in the Bible not be there. You see, what is there is God’s word and God’s word is complete and perfect. No explanation is needed when He says something is sin, period.

  109. Don't Forget This wrote:

    Jesus himself made it clear that this is the only place for a one-flesh, sexual relationship:

    Mark 10:
    7 “‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8 and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one.” (NIV)

    Even if you somehow throw out the other Scriptures that deal with the subject, I don’t see how you can explain away the words of Jesus.

    I’m single. I’m celibate. So don’t tell me it can’t be done.

  110. Obzerver wrote:

    Perhaps someone should set aside one big “Out of the Closet” Day” and let all those who are so inclined “come out” all at the same time and get it over with. That way we can all be disapointed in/pray for/encourage/disparage/excommunicate (depending what your views are) them all at once. Then perhaps we could have a great big unison unbunching of the panties so that we can go on to some other matters.

  111. NAMBLA wrote:

    You can’t help who you fall in love with, right? God made us gay. God wouldn’t send someone to hell for something that is out of their control. If I am gay, does that mean I can no longer like Southern Gospel music since it is Christian music? I am still a Christian. I am also a proud member of NAMBLA. Again, you can’t help who you fall in love with. God made me this way.

    Harry Peters, you have made friends in the gay community. [edit]

    God Bless

  112. Wade wrote:

    So while we wait on dr. joe… 102 jim… thanks for making Harry’s point. If there are things that are left out it is not the complete story. I promise you I would have read past the first week so speak for yourself. That did not even make sense and you say Harry didn’t. It’s funny what some ppl consider a gnat is REALLY the elephant. NITPICKY… you consider it nitpicking for ppl like dr. joe to condemn ppl to hell with out hope??

    103 - and all of you gay bashers… in your hetro experience have you ever met some one who was a good person. A person that is maybe even attractive to the human eye and for what ever reason there was no spark?? You maybe even wanted there to be and maybe even went out with that other person a few times thinking it might at some point… but it just never did. Can you explain that??? I can’t it is happening to me right now in a hetro way right now.

    I have heard this used to explain the way homosexuals feel . They do not want to be. It would be much easier to be hetro. They would not have you bashers to contend with and they would be much more accepted and no living in constant fear of being outed.

    Like Harry has said and I agree if it were such a sin as y’all say I believe it would have been in the 10 Commandments. Most of the verses dr. joe and others have shared list a LONG LIST of other ppl who will not make it into heaven but yet we are not on here bashing Matt Dilber. We are not telling a Music Minister friend of mine who has a lovely wife and 3 boys but yet is very effeminate he is going and both of those things are listed.

    If you think that any book like the Bible can be translated totally correct over the centuries involved with man, some very evil and think it is ALL THERE then you folks are sadly mistaken.

    The question has been ask many times here could you switch??? If they found out it was supposed to be the other way around and home was the way to go or you were living in sin… COULD YOU SWITCH??? It would be a sin… so surely you could. I could not. I have never had a man crush ever. [edit] That is what you are asking these ppl to do is to switch everything in them to the other way and it can’t be done.

    For the ones of you that say there can’t be Gay Christians, I guess you think that what ever Christian Church you go to will be the only ones in heaven too.

    I pray for all of you. I hope God is gentle to you judgmental midgets.

  113. Texan wrote:

    Billy Graham, in an interview a few years ago, was asked if homosexual acts were sin. He said, yes, but then so is lust, greed, lying and pride and Jesus mentioned these many times, while never mentioning homosexuality. Graham was also asked if had a gay child, if he would love them less. He answered, I would love them more!

  114. Joe wrote:

    Obzerver-

    Ya know- I actually agree with you totally. We are here again, because once again, Doug has baited us all into the trap.

    I guarantee you- there would be discussion of many, many other subjects than this, were it not for the fact that the webmaster continually posts articles like these.

    A number of us have asked him why this happens, but we have received no answers thus far.

  115. Rick wrote:

    Re:#110. There is already such a day. October 11 is National Coming Out Day. It is an excellent opportunity for anyone who has decided to come out to do so on this annual event. If every gay person not already out chose to do this; you would be surprised not only at the numbers, but at how many you would know. Acquaintances, friends AND family.

  116. UKCatsfan wrote:

    I’m really glad I’ve gotten in on this discussion. You all, believe it or not, have opened my eyes. Not opened in the way you would have wanted though. I’m still gay, still Christian, still love God, still love people, still love Church, all the other good stuff. You all have only re-affirmed my convictions more. I would HATE to be so blinded by contempt for another person(s) that I glean only what I want from the Bible and use that to bash people over the head with.

    Sgfan, you’re not understanding what I said. I AM definitely proud of who I am and live my life with no aologies, no regrets. I’m proud of the fact that I worked my way through undergrad, graduate school, and a doctoral program without taking one red cent from anyone and have paid back every loan I took out. And friends, I didn’t come from money, My dad was a coal miner. I’m proud of the fact that I was raised in a God fearing home and taught not to jump to judgement of other people because you’ve never walked in their shoes. (By the way, my family doesn’t like the fact that I’m gay but, the accept me for who I am) I’m proud of the fact that I can say unequovically that I live an honest, open life, free of secrets and deception. I’m proud of the fact that I’ve lived my WHOLE life searching for God’s meaning in the Bible. I’m proud of the fact that I can say I no longer live in fear of who I am, what I was BORN to be. I’ve known something was different in my since I was in the 3rd grade, couldn’t put my finger on it but I always knew. I went through the motions, dated, even became engaged. Luckilly for myself and for my fiance` I broke the engagement off. I realized it would have in NO WAY been fair to her or the children we would have most certainly had. I’m proud of that. I spared her a lot of hurt in the future. I’m proud of the fact that, in part out of my own curiosity and a desire to learn and maybe change myself (guess what, I wanted to be straight for a long time), that I attended a “Love One Out” seminar (an ex-gay minstry). Even they don’t claim to change your sexual orientation, just help you REPRESS your natural, God given desires and change your sexual conduct. And, repressed sexuality manifests itself in bizzare ways my friends. Hello, the Catholic Church sexual molesation scandal???? These so called “ministries” do nothing but instill shame and guilt in their VICTIMS. The American Medical Association, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Assocation, American Psychoanalytic Association, The American Academy of Pediatrics, and at least half dozen more have stated that attempting to “repair” or change one’s sexual orientation can have devestaing mental effects on a person and that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed. And, if you want to check me out, these studies/reports can be found in any medical journal (most of which are available now online through JSTOR) or in any university library; well except Liberty or Bob Jones University. ;)

    So yes, Sgfan, I am proud of who I am. But not just because of who I sleep with. I’m proud of the fact that I’m a good, decent, educated, well-rounded, God fearing, Church-going, loving MAN who just happens to sleep with men.

    Oh and obzerver, there is a national coming out day, it’s October 11. Although I think coming out is a process or it was for me. I like to say that I was living in the closet with the door wide open for a long time.

    And Texan, well said!!!! I can think of no modern day disciple that I have more respect for than Billy Graham. If people want to see a true Man of God, they should look at him.

  117. UKCatsfan wrote:

    And SGFAN65 you said it best when you said “God is LOVE and LOVES us ALL.” If only more Christians were more like CHRIST, this world would be a far better place.

  118. SGfan wrote:

    # 116 UKCatsfan

    I understood well what you said, the problem is I don’t think you quite understand it yourself. This statement alone shows that you are defining youself by you homosexuality.

    “By the way, my family doesn’t like the fact that I’m gay but, they accept me for who I am”

    I would encourage you to check out the testimony of Dennis Jernigan. You see, he lived what you are going through. Nothing about the desire you are feeling is natural or God-given. Sexual desire is natural and God-given, but homosexuality is a perversion of that caused by sin. I understand that there are many medical journals that back up your claims, but they provide no facts to fully support their claims. All of the so called facts they present are subjective. They are based on opinion. You see, your DNA does not have any special gene or lack any special gene that would make you homosexual or me heterosexual. You did say, “And, repressed sexuality manifests itself in bizzare ways my friends.” I guess homosexuality can be included in that, LOL.

    Finally, I did not ask yo to search for God’s meaning in the Bible, but for God Himself. If you seek God and are open to His leadership and authority, He will change your life far more than any argument I can present. You just have to be open yourself to let Him do that. As long as you hold on to that part of your life and tell Him that He can’t take that away, then you have not allowed Him to be God of every aspect of your life and you will continue to have to deal with a life lived in sin. So again, seek after God. Open your whole life to Him, not just part. I think you’ll find it is much easier said than done, but when you learn to do it your life will be so much better and more fulfilled than before.

  119. SGfan wrote:

    By the way, Texan wrote:

    “Graham was also asked if had a gay child, if he would love them less. He answered, I would love them more!”

    I totally agree. However, don’t take that statement out of context. We are always supposed to love our neighbor as ourself. That does not mean that we love the sin. Again, we are created in the image of God. He is a God that is love and loves us so much and yet He hates sin and hated sin so much that He provided a way out of sin for us on the cross.

  120. Joe wrote:

    Since this has turned into a very obvious pro-homosexual love fest, this will be my last post. (I hear cheers….) Instead of my last words, I will let them be His Words. For all who proudly claim this sin, read and contemplate these verses very, very carefully.

    What was just written on this board, above, copied below, is simply the most disgusting thing I’ve ever read here. May God have mercy on his soul.

    >>”So yes, Sgfan, I am proud of who I am. But not just because of who I sleep with. I’m proud of the fact that I’m a good, decent, educated, well-rounded, God fearing, Church-going, loving MAN who just happens to sleep with men.<<”

    “Then the Lord said, ‘The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is immense, and their sin is extremely serious. I will go down to see if what they have done justifies the cry that has come up to Me. If not, I will find out.’ Then the Lord rained burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah from the Lord out of the sky.” (Gen. 18:20-21; 19:24)

    “As I live- the declaration of the Lord God: ‘Now this was the iniquity of Sodom; she and her daughters had pride…and did detestable things before Me, so I removed them when I saw this…’ ” (Ezekiel 16:48-50)

    “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.” (Lev. 18:22)

    “Therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God to a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator…for this reason, God gave them up to degrading passions…the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed in their lust for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men, and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:24-27)

    “Nothing unclean will ever enter (Heaven), nor anyone who practices abominations…only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” (Rev. 22:27)

    For any to say that this perversion is “God given”, is guilty of blasphemy against their Creator.

  121. apathetic wrote:

    Wow, I thought I had seen a lot on this web site. Am I the only one that saw post #111??? NAMBLA??? Google NAMBLA. (North American Man Boy Love Association)If that is a real organization they should all be arrested. That is child abuse. Disgusting. I would hate to see whatever was “edited” before the comment was posted.

  122. GHU wrote:

    Jesus himself made it clear that there is only one option for a one-flesh, sexual relationship:

    Mark 10:
    7 “‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8 and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one.” (NIV)

    Even if you somehow throw out the other Scriptures that deal with the subject (and all its most extreme forms), I don’t see how you can explain away the words of Jesus.

    And BTW, I’m single. I’m celibate. It’s a choice, day by day. Life is simpler and sweeter with obedience; He made us that way.

  123. 1 old fan wrote:

    I, for one, am sick and tired of the “God made me this way” argument. IMO, it’s a lie from the pit of hell.

    God didn’t may you with homosexual tendancies any more than he made others with tendancies to lie, steal, kill, committed heterosexual immorality, or any other sin. Those desires, drives (whatever you want to call them) are from Satan, the father of all lies.

    The Bible does not teach that the desire/temptation/tendancy to disobey his rules is sin. So a person is not a sinner just because they have a desire to have sexual relations with a person of the same sex, any more than a person would be a sinner just because he/she was tempted to rob a bank. It’s when we ACT on those temptations/desires/tendancies that it becomes sin.

    And yes, God still love us when we sin. But HE has stated the penalty.

    And by the way, any speculation that the Apostle Paul was gay is strictly speculation.

  124. UKCatsfan wrote:

    Sgfan: How does my statement about my family define me? It defines my family. They don’t have to accept my homosexuality; some of them do, some of them don’t. Yet they have never said one hateful word to me. The only person that I care that accepts me is God, and I know full well he does. And as far as the testimony of Dennis Jernigan, I know it well. And all I have to say is more power to him! My friend, “was” gay in college, entered into conversion therapy and was married for 17 years, fathered 3 boys, was a deacon in his church, and was caught having an affair with a male county official (who was also married). In the end, many lives were destroyed by his choosing to live a lie. You see, there is a counterstory to every testimony.

    And, please. The “so-called facts they (medical associations) present are subjective…..opinions.” How can hard scientific fact, backed up by DNA testing and gene testing be considered opinion?. Quite the contrary, everything you have stated is opinion! And most of what I have stated has been opinion. However the findings of the medical boards are not. Remember the time when the church was killing people for believing that the earth revolved around the sun and not vice versa? Science changes the way we think, it’s inevitible.

    Here’s a fact for you. In a study published in JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Assocaition) in 1999, 10 cadaver brains were observed by 25 different Medical Doctors and scientists. Three of those brains were from homosexual men and one from a homosexual woman. Every scientist identified the specimens belonging to the heterosexual and homosexual people. How? Certain adrenal glands in the brain are smaller in gay men and larger in gay women. It is the exact opposite in their straight counterparts. Look this study up. Or I can send you the entire text if you wish. It’s there in black and white.

    I could go into countless other studies about birth order, gene research, hormones, DNA, etc but, I’m beating a dead horse here. I’m a realist. I’m not going to change your mind and you’re obviously not going to change me. You see, I have no need to change. Just as you feel you have no need to. Let’s just leave it at that.

    And, as much as it pains me to do this, I am going to respond to Joe’s last post. Yes, I said I wasn’t going to but I changed my mind. I pray that God has mercy on his soul as well. I pray that God has mercy on all our souls. How else would any of us get into Heaven?

  125. UKCatsfan wrote:

    In my 124 post, I left out the hypothalamus gland. It should have been before adrenal glands. Sorry.

  126. Jim2 wrote:

    AG, (#106)
    Thanks, I was thinking of that verse, but couldn’t find it before work this morning.
    UKcatsfan, (#117)
    You are right, God is LOVE, and I am so grateful that not only did He love me just the way I was, He loved me too much to leave me that way! No, I haven’t arrived, and none of us will till we see Him face to face, but the bar has been set and we all need to try to come as close to His standard of perfect love as we can. Not in our own strength, but by surrendering our will completely to His.

  127. Brett wrote:

    UKCatsfan

    Yes UK, make excuses. What proof for science? I suppose pedophiles are born that way too. Also compulsive liars, thiefs, adulters. Nice cop out, won’t work in God’s eyes. If the body was made for homosexulaity men & men women & women could pro-create. Furthermore, because they did not think it worthwhile to keep knowing God fully, God delivered them to degraded minds to perform acts that should not be done. Romans 1:28
    Homosexuality is wrong, end of story.

  128. UKCatsfan wrote:

    I make no excuses for anything. Just didn’t want to leave myself vulnerable for an attact from a would be “scientist” that googles this study. Sorry, that’s just my attention to detail. That’s why I CORRECTED MY MISTAKE, not made an excuse. And, I can assure you, I nerver “cop out” on anything.

  129. Harry Peters wrote:

    Can’t we all just get along? Old Harry Peters has noted that it is not the gay brothers on this sight who are raising all of the hell. As a matter of fact, they just want to be accepted by their Christian brothers and sisters. I don’t see that as a problem. I do see all the judgment and proof texting with scripture to be a very serious and dangerous thing. Let me throw a verse out there for you bashers to consider. Jesus said, “whoever comes to me I will in no wise cast out.” I hear my gay brothers saying loud and clear that have come to Jesus. I for one, believe his promise. I’m not sure what heaven will be like, but I’m pretty sure that there will be no need for closets. You hateful bashers might as well start getting used to it on earth. There will be no segregation in heaven. Dr. Joe mentioned a “love fest.” Yes, that’s exactly what our Lord would want.

  130. SGfan wrote:

    I would like you to reread your own statement about your family. You said “they accept me for who I am” referring to the fact that you are gay. That is what the who in your sentence stood for in the context you wrote it thus defining yourself by the homosexuality rather than who you are in the image of Christ (man). Again, you can try to point to medical study after medical study and you’ll never find one identifying factor that causes homosexuality. You do find instances where abnormalities exist, but that happens in heterosexual and homosexual and is not exclusive to one or the other. The findings of medical boards are always subjective, as medicine is a subjective science. Nothing is ever true for every individual tested, hence the differences in drug reactions. You are right in that I have no reason to change. The Word of God backs me up and that is all I need. Truth is on my side. You however do have a need to change, but you seem to be totally against it. I make a simple suggestion about seeking God and you go defensive. My friend, we all need to seek Him, and in your case it would be good if you had His perspective of your situation. Our friend Joe has used scripture to beat you over the head with, but his scripture references are correct. I tell you what, you list your studies, and I’ll research and list studies that say totally the opposite. We can match study for study, but that wouldn’t get us anywhere. All it does is bring us back to square one. Who has the answer? God. Where can I find it? His word. How do I know when I have found it? The Holy Spirit will show you. What do you have to do? Be open and let Him. Again, He does not force His will on anyone. Remember, God sends no one to Hell. We send ourselves if that is where we end up.

    # 129 Harry Peters

    I know very well what Jesus said, but again you have to come to Him with everything. You have to weigh that with every thing He said in scripture and with scripture as a whole. Don’t try to use scripture out of context as you have done once again. You can’t choose which part of your life to hold back from Him. His word states that homosexuality is sin. You might as well call Him a hateful basher, because God is totally against homosexuality. No, there will be no need for closets, because there will be no homosexuality in heaven. Sorry if that upsets anyone, just the truth of scripture.

  131. Snowy wrote:

    #9 and others,
    pitch those Ray Boltz cd’s my way. I will take them.

  132. SGFAN65 wrote:

    sgfan - I regret that my postname is so close to your own -but that’s neither here nor there….

    I refer back to your post in #118 and subsequent posts regarding this Dennis Jernigan. This is just ONE example of someone claiming to have overcome Homosexuality.

    How many people are on this earth ?
    How many people do you hear about that have testomonies of being “Healed” or “removed” from homosexuality ?

    Very Very few - and some that have previously claimed to have been “healed” and even led “ex-gay” organizations - were found to frequent gay bars after the fact.

    I prayed for 28 long years of my 43 years to “overcome” my feelings as a gay man. I did not want to be gay. There are times even now that I do not want to be gay -because I hate being ridiculed and unaccepted by most of my “christian” brothers and sisters.

    I was raised in a Pentecostal pastor’s home - when I came out - it was very very hard for my parents and siblings -
    But - they had to revisit their convictions because they knew the life I have lived for God and the way that I was open to the ministry - and the calling on my life. Not saying that they “like the fact” that I am gay - they are just human and compassionate enough to accept me as I am - who I am -not just what I am.

    If Gays could be healed from Homosexuality - then there would be a very small population of gay men and women - because each of us would pray and believe for our healing.

    Not one of my gay friends would tell you that they have not begged and pleaded with God to “heal” them and take it away ! Why would we want to live amongst ridicule and hatefulness expressed here by so many of you ?

    Harry Peters - I agree with #111 in that you have made alot of new friends amongst the gay community. Your compassion is so evident in your approach - and this speaks volumes of the person you must be. I have no doubt that God is smiling on you - for truly living the example he set before us

    I repeat - God is LOVE and Loves us ALL

    You will never make me believe otherwise !

  133. UKCatsfan wrote:

    Sgfan, I don’t know how to make this any clearer. They (my family) accept ME, not just gay me, not just white me, not just christian me, not just country music likin’, gospel music, church-goin, flawed me. They accept ME. All of those things, and many more encompass what I am. All of them are parts, yes some bigger than the others, but they all make up who I am. They accept me, all of me. Are there parts of me they don’t like, sure. Are there parts of them I don’t like, sure. But I still accept them for who they are. Why can’t we all be like that? How much more simple or plain can I make that? You’re just reading want you want to hear to reinforce your own biggotry and prejudice.

    And for the medical/scientific studies. They all point to FACTORS that determine one’s sexuality. Not causes. Nothing CAUSED you to be straight; you just were. Just like nothing CAUSED me to be gay. The factors before birth determined that. I would lay 100 bucks down (oh my, I’m a gambler too) that you’re a literalist, therefore a predestionationalist. So, to put into terms both of us can identify with, think of it as predesitination. I no more chose to be attracted to men than you chose to be attracted to the opposite sex.

    We’re having the same argument over and over again and probably boring the other readers to tears. So, let me sum up my entire argument on homosexuality right here and now, clearly and concisely. I was BORN GAY. I DID NOT choose it. I DO NOT think it’s a sin. I DO NOT think that God thinks its a sin. I DO think that, if you literally interpret everything in the Bible to be absolutely the truth, word for word, letter for letter, then yes you would be led to belive that homosexuality is a sin. However, I, as well as a great many thousands of people, don’t interpret the Bible that way. Societies change, people change, the world has changed. People once thought the earth was flat, science disproved it. People once thought the earth was the center of the universe and the CHURCH killed anyone who taught or believed otherwise. Once again, science disproved that.

    Over the course of greater than 2000 years, the Bible has been translated, re-translated, picked apart, disected, and used for the belittlement of women in the minstry and the subjecating of whole races into slavery. Do you honestly think thats what God wanted us to use the Bible for? I don’t. I believe it’s to draw us closer to him. And, for me it has. My relationship with Christ is closer than it’s ever been. That’s whats most important. I prayed, cried, lashed out, prayed some more, read the Bible, sought counsel, researched, and spent a great many nights on my knees praying for answers from God. I finally got it. I am exactly what he made me to be. In all that journey, the Lord never one time told me, you’re disgusting for being something of which you have no control over. I tried “being straight” because I had always been told, by people like you, that that’s what God wanted me to do. Finally, I stopped listening to everyone else and decided to, as you said I should, listen to God. This is what he’s revealed to me. I am exactly what he wants me to be and as long as I do the very best that I can for him, that’s all he asks. And that’s exactly what I’m doing. I’ve dealt with this since I was SEVEN years old. When I came out, I was told I should get AIDS and die, I was told I was going to burn in hell, I was told that I was disgusting, I was told to just go ahead and kill myself because I was going to hell anyway, and just on this board, I’ve been told that I “blaspheemed my creator.” All of these remarks came from “christians.” That my friends is not an example of Christ-like love. That is not an example of seeking God’s will for one’s life. I’ve sought, and I’ve found God’s will for my life. If that changes, or if some morning I wake up and I’m suddenly straight and attracted to women, you’ll be the first to know.

    Now, for everyone else, I apolgize. I said I was going to be concise and for going off on that diatribe, again I’m sorry. But when I get rounded up, watch out. In the words of the late, great Vestal Goodman, “Once you’ve lived enough you can say what you want, if people like it, great. If not, tough.”

  134. UKCatsfan wrote:

    And SGFAN65, it’s so inspiring to hear a brother in Christ feel EXACTLY the way that I do. I think we could probably write each other’s posts! God bless you Brother!

  135. Joe wrote:

    UKCatsFan-

    I said I wouldn’t write more, but after that diatribe, I cannot sit idly by.

    I am a medical doctor, 31 years in practice.
    I have read many of the studies. They are liberal unsaved scientists for the most part, opposed to God. Paul warned Timothy against “science, falsely so called”, opposing God’s truth. You won’t find any truly saved scientists proving the “homosexual gene”!

    This is a classic example of what Paul warned Timothy against. If you want to find personal shelter for your aberrational behavior in these studies, go right ahead. What you have written here is clear for all to see. It is your word against God’s. Plain and simple. What YOU say, is diametrically opposed to what HE says.

    Science now tells us that there is a “gene” for alcoholism. Yet I have heard of and known men and women who were hopeless alcoholics, until saved by God’s grace- and from that defining moment on, have never touched the stuff. So much for science. This backs up what the Word of God says, by the way- and not what you say. When a person is in Christ, they become a totally new creation. Old things are gone. All things are become new.

    The search for “genes” is nothing more than sinful man’s attempt to avoid personal responsibility. Before you know it, we will have “genes” for child molesters and serial rapists, and they will all soon be let off on technicalities. Then in a short time, they will force themselves onto mainstream society for all to lovingly accept, and sing stories just like yours.

    The Bible says sin is a choice. Homosexuality is a sin. God says it, no matter what you might say. And for those of us with any spiritual common sense, we’ll take what HE says.

    I thought of you in our Bible study tonight. We studied Matthew 16, end of the chapter. Here is what Jesus said: “If anyone desires to come after Me, LET HIM DENY HIMSELF, and take up the cross, and follow Me.”

    Even the most casual and uninterested reader on this board, reading what you have written over the past few days, would understand totally that the very last thing you have any intention whatsoever of doing, is denying yourself.

    You are proudly, publicly, arrogantly and overconfidently INDULGING yourself, not denying yourself. Your very words tell us exactly where you stand in relation to the claims of the cross, and the call of Christ.

  136. UKCatsfan wrote:

    Whatever you say Dr. Joe. I’m not arguing with you anymore. I’m tired, hungry, and going out for pizza. Have a nice life, and I’ll see you in Heaven! Who knows, maybe my mansion will be right next to yours! Wouldn’t that be ironic? Truthfully though, I’d rather it be next to my Grandma’s. That’s not dig on you of course. ;)

  137. Harry Peters wrote:

    My brothers #132 and 133 SGFAN65 and UKCatsFan,

    Once again, you make the points coming from knowledge, education and intelligence. It’s a shame so many Christians believe that they have to check their brain at the door and never question anything when they decide to follow Christ. I’m pretty sure that you guys would agree with me that questioning and probing and studying the Bible, church history, etc has only made my faith stronger. I suspect that it has done the same for you. Old Harry Peters admires you both for your tremendous faith and testimony. With all of the hurtful things “Christians” have done to you, your unshakeable faith is remarkable to me. Take comfort in one of my favorite sayings of Jesus: “In this world you WILL have trouble; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” Keep the faith my brothers!

  138. SGFAN65 wrote:

    #134 - Same - right back at you !
    I feel like I have found a kindred spirit for sure. Many blessings to you as well.

    Would love to correspond off post somehow to share our experiences. My life seems to be a mirror image to that of yours. A new friend in Christ !

    Doug - have a great break !

  139. SGFAN65 wrote:

    Thank you #137 Harry Peters - Can I vote for you for President ?

  140. SGfan wrote:

    SGFAN65
    I have actually heard many stories of people coming out of the homosexual lifestyle. I actually know several. The difference between them and you is that they decided to start asking God who they were instead of asking themselves. You see, when you prayed to overcome your feelings, you were praying the wrong thing. What you should’ve been praying is that God would transform and conform you into His image. Your family accepts you, not your homosexuality. You’ve made it clear that they do not like that fact, but again you continue to use that homosexuality as the definition of who you are when you use the phrase “they accept me for who I am”. What is the “who” referring to in the context you are using it. You are essentially saying they accept the homosexuality, but what they are accepting is the “I” in that phrase, not the “who”. They accept and love you. There is a big difference.

  141. SGfan wrote:

    UKCatsfan
    You continue to insist that you were born a homosexual. That simply is untrue. You are right that your family accepts you, and that is what they should do. But, you are taking that as an endorsment of your homosexuality when they have learned to seperate their love for you from the dislike of the sin. You see, as I have said before, we have to be willing to love the sinner and hate the sin. There is no “biggotry and prejudice” in anything I have said, just truth and observation. I’m sorry if that hurts.
    You challenged me as a Biblical “literalist” and a “predestionationalist”. The first is true and the second is not. I believe in free will, so therefor can not be a predestionationalist. The only person presenting the same argument over and over is you. You bring up black people and women trying to draw parallels again that simply do not exist. Neither one of those are presented as sin in ther Bible, however homosexuality is and very clearly is. You mention the Bible being translated over and over the past 2000 years trying to water down the validity of it, yet if you compare it to the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts it is incredibly accurate and has not changed in context.
    I understand the idea that you have searched for answers from God, but as I suggested earlier instead of searching for answers, seek Him. Those are two different things. I can promise you that God did not validate your homosexuality. That would make His Word a lier and that is one thing it is not. Who you are supposed to be is a reflection of Him and again, homosexuality does not fit that image. I am truly sorry that people claiming to be Christians have told you to commit suicide and all those other things you mentioned, but you can not say that about me. The only thing I have done is point you to God and to His Word. Finally, you may have been a little feminine at seven, but I seriously doubt you had any idea about a sexuality issue unless there were issues of abuse that you have not shared throughout this. Seven year olds are too busy being kids to comprehend what sexuality is. You said you have sought and found God’s will for your life, again it can not be homosexuality and you can not define His will as homosexuality because it goes in direct contradiction to His Word. Still prayin’ for ya! Final word of advice. Seek God.

  142. Suprisedtolearn wrote:

    Reading many of these posts really breaks my heart. You are so lost in your own world and being mislead everyday, everyway about your abnormal sexuality. YES abnormal. It’s not the way God planned for a family to be, or he would have made men/men women/women families. He didn’t.. He made it for men/women. I’m sure that for you men that have spoken out, that there is a wonderful woman in your backkground that loves you very much. I’m sure that if you would give her the chance, you would find happiness and live out the rest of your life in peace and contentment. If God didn’t reject the gay/lesbians lifestyle, WHY did he destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Why didn’t he just pass it over and say, well they can’t help it? He knew it was wrong by HIS own standards. Sure he is a loving God, and he loves all of us, but he HATES the sin. Homosexuality is a SIN! No matter how you look at it it is an abomination to God. In some ways, I think that is really worse than sin. But as much as he loves the sinner (soul) he will not allow it in Heaven. He even tells us in Matthew that many are called, but FEW are chosen. Also, there is a wide gate, but a narrow path. Wouldn’t it be better to live a lifestyle that is pleasing to God and make it HEAVEN, than to live the life that is an abomination to him, and go to HELL? Let me say here to, and this is a totally different ball of wax, but there are sexual acts between man/woman that are homosexaul in nature, and I don’t think they are biblical. I think performing these acts are sin also.
    I certainly will be praying for at least two of you that I know that have openly admitted to homosexuality.. That God will open your eyes to your sin and convict your hearts before it’s too late. May God be with you!

  143. UKCatsfan wrote:

    OK, I promise to keep this short. Sgfan. Once again you bring up the SAME points and arguements. Just re-read my posts to get the answers. And you have absolutely no business making presumptions about whether I was born gay or not. Or whether or not I was “feminine” when I was 7 years old. Do you remember your first crush? I do, and it was on a boy named Brandon. And I was in the 2nd grade. That’s what I’m talking about.

    Now, how do I know you were born straight? I don’t. In fact, it’s NONE OF MY BUSINESS! Next, read the Bible from a HISTORICAL perspective. You’ll get a whole new view.

    And as far as being feminine at age 7. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I am in NO WAY feminine. When I told my family I was gay, they were all shocked. In fact, when I tell anyone now, they really have a hard time believing it. Why, because I don’t fit the stereotype of the gay man that is so often perpetuated. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with “feminine” men, I’m just not one of them. I’ll challenge you to a game of football, baseball, basketball, whatever anytime you choose. Just promise me, you won’t bring this up!

    And yes, that was my idea of keeping it short. ;)

  144. SGFAN65 wrote:

    sgfan - you will never know what I have felt or prayed. God, the Father - and Jesus his son - and the Holy Spririt - my comfort thru all of this - are the only ones who can know what I have prayed or experienced in my life. Because of that, I’d prefer that you not make any judgement or statement as to what I “have” felt or done - and especially what I should do.

    People like you - will never understand what people like us experience.

    Let’s reverse the possibilities here…..

    Maybe if you would just take your obvious attraction to women - and try and make yourself be attracted to a man - try withall your might and heart to be attracted to a man - because you feel it should be done - because everyone expects that of you - then maybe you can put yourself in our shoes in trying to make ourselves be attracted to women - when it’s just not possible.

    sgfan - you will NEVER understand anything we’ve experienced - but maybe - just maybe - if you stop for a moment of throwing your firey judgemental darts - and try and experience this example for it’s simplicity - then maybe you can have an idea of what it is for us.

    But quite frankly - I believe your piaty and soapbox mentality will not allow you to have the compassion to even test that example.

    I pray for you - regardless - and hope that you will pray for me.

    Heaven is going to be full of surprises. Wouldn’t it be something if my mansion was on one side of yours and UtCatsfan was on the other side ? Just think how it would add to your property value ?

    Hope you can find humor in my attempt to make light of your suggestive ignorance to even begin to comprehend our community !

  145. Harry Peters wrote:

    Doc Joe (135): Was Granny Clampett your chief instructor and mentor? You are a “doctor” who doesn’t believe in genes? If Old Harry Peters comes to your emergency room, just pull the plug. I’ll be judged by God any day before I’d be judged by you. At least, God is merciful. You have shown NO MERCY to your brothers and sisters on this blog.

  146. Wonderfully Human wrote:

    It would be wonderfully human and even broadminded of the moderator in his update to reconsider equating race and gender with sexual orientation.

    Generally speaking, a woman cannot walk into a room without her gender being clearly determined. A person of color cannot easily keep this information quiet. However, I do know people whose outward behavior does not immediately associate them with an alternative lifestyle.

    Gender (unless you trot out all the tired university fodder on how to truly define gender) is universally a physical characteristic visible on the outside. Race is universally a physical characteristic visible on the outside of a person. Outward behavior, on the other hand, can vary, while physical reality does not.

    Give it a rest, professor.

  147. JR wrote:

    Doesn’t Anybody believe in demons anymore? Or think it’s possible that Satan would try to torture a perfectly good person that God made? I know that God does not make people gay. The Devil has been corrupting God’s creation for 6,000 years. Even so homosexuality is a hard demon to get rid of. If people understood the spiritual realm, they might have more compassion. By the way engaging in homosexuality, adultury, fornication, lying, even being fearful will get you eternity in the Lake of Fire.

  148. irishlad wrote:

    Joe. You have succeeded in rendering me,and no doubt others,totally bemused.How can a man of presumably above average intelligence continue to quote passages of scripture from the OT which are at best archaic and the worst complete fairytales. In saying that and doubtless to your chargrin my relationship with God remains unchanged,after all, i’m answerble to Him and not you or any other literists.

  149. J wrote:

    Though I am scared of throwing my hat into this ring…… here goes:

    Homosexuality is rampant in Gospel music. It is rampant in the church. It is rampant in the educational community. It is rampant at your workplace. Whether you realize it or not or agree with it or not, homosexuality is prevalent because it is a real thing. It isn’t a desire to drink or addiction to gambling. It isn’t akin to smoking or drinking. It is deeply psychological and rooted within the nature/nurture (pick one) of man. It isn’t prayed away. It isn’t a decision someone makes. Heterosexuals who don’t know gay people tend to understand this. Many people think that it is a personal decision to be attracted to someone of the same gender. Just pipe down. Pray, if you must, for these men and women. Just pipe down. Experience is more valuable than the written word. Pipe down. I will pipe down too.

    In a similar vein, spirituality is DEAD in SGM, barring a few choice exceptions. SGM preys on the spiritually minded for “support.” When you are sitting in the audience watching your favorite group sing, you turn to your wife/husband and say, “I sure feel the spirit tonight, Mildred/Clyde!” Great SGM Artists are ones who know how to “rattle an audience’s cage,” metaphorically speaking. It is their job to make you feel impressed upon by the Spirit. Get people hyped up on the Holy Spirit and they will dump their wallets in the offering plate and STILL by the group dinner after the concert.
    If you only knew what went on behind the scenes; the backstabbing, sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll, crude language, and mismanagement of funds…. you wouldn’t feel so “blessed” during those concerts.

    It is all a shame. I am gonna pipe down now.

  150. NOnSGfan wrote:

    I do find it very interesting that EVERYTHING “gay” in nature, Doug feels the need to post it.

    My personal opinion is that the reason were are seeing an influx of people “Coming out” after 30 and 40 years, is because the INITIAL salvation experience in the beginning was either
    A. Not Genuine (Based on “coming to Christ” or “accepting Jesssuus”

    or maybe….
    B. Nobody prepared them for the fight they would have in the flesh concerning the “old man”

    c.It was a calculated and Planned thing, to wait untill it was more culturally acceptable to admit.

    I predict that in the next 10 years, the christian community as a majority will begin to accept homosexuals into the pulpit, and in church membership. This is already happening as a minority, but I think it’s coming to the majority.
    Nobody knows if Mark Lowry is gay [edit] it is all speculation untill somebody makes a confession and USELESS to discuss.

  151. Derek wrote:

    Saying that God made you gay reminds me of the wackos you see in the news who say that God told them to go out and kill somebody! It’s absurd! They probably heard a voice they thought was God…but the Bible tells us the sheep know the master’s voice and another they will not follow! #147 hit the nail on the head…demons aren’t politically correct so we have become reluctant to say someone has a demon inside. Jesus was a friend to sinners…in that he loved them and did not condemn them. However, he told the woman caught in the act of adultery “neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more.”

  152. Joe wrote:

    This will briefly answer several of the above posts, some who questioned me.

    J.-The Bible says that homosexuality is a choice. Please read Romans 1. The important lesson from this sad tale is that after a series of human choices, it says “God gave them up…”, “God gave them over…” God never does this first. He lets humans determine their own wills. Please read the story of Pharaoh in Exodus. God never “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” until after Pharaoh had hardened his own heart many times. This is the same principle in Romans 1 with homosexuality. It is a human choice, no matter what humans say.

    Harry- of course I believe in genetic illnesses. But you missed my example above. Science is finding a “gene” to “cover” every habit and vice of mankind. All this does is to elevate the creature over the Creator, and gives mankind a convenient excuse for all sorts of sinful behavior. This as well, is the message of Romans 1. There is no personal responsibility anymore- and this is partly why. And your “merciful God” (which by the way, He is…but He is also abjectly Holy and hates sin) has authorized the very words I have quoted, whereby you have judged Him unmerciful. I have quoted Him, not me.

    UKCatsFan- I truly have empathy for you. But the reason you are in the fix you are in, is because you HAVE BEEN reading the Bible from a historical point of view. If you read it as bottom-line truth from your Creator, YOU would have a totally different perspective.

    Irishlad- if you honestly feel ANY part of the Bible is a “fairy tale”, then you and I have no grounds for further discourse. You have readily and often stated your disdain for the inerrant Word of God. And that’s your choice. As far as you and eternity, as they say in Hong Kong- rotsa ruck.

    JR- demon-possession is an interesting thought. But if a person is truly born again, they are indwelt by the Spirit of God, and there is no room within a Christian for a demon. Both spirits cannot indwell a believer.

    Wonderfully human- you are spot on.

  153. Wading In wrote:

    Wow, this thread made for an interesting read this morning. And knowing that opinions are like belly buttons or… ahem… “Harry Peters,” all men have them, I’ll offer mine: I think sexual drive is innate and sexual orientation, heterosexual or homosexual, is learned. That said, I’ve never met a homosexual man who has a truly great relationship with his father. Dad was either absent, by death or divorce, or so emotionally distant, cold, and removed as to not have much influence on his son in those early, formative years.

    I’m a heterosexual man, happily married with children, who has never been drawn to a homosexual lifestyle. But I have struggled with some of the other things in Paul’s lists: lover of money, boastful, disobedient to parents, without love, unforgiving, gossiper, slanderer, et al. I am a broken person just like every homosexual person and just like every other heterosexual person I have ever met. We are in the same boat - desperately in need of a savior.

  154. BUICK wrote:

    This message is for Joe. That doesn’t mean that others won’t read it or even respond but I am addressing Joe.

    Joe, my friend, you may as well give up. Romans 1:18-32 says everything that needs to be said on this subject. But some on this site do not accept Paul as having any more validity than they believe you have. Romans 1 does not matter to someone who rejects Paul as an inspired author writing the very words of God.

    Some are judging the truth of scripture by the standard of their own experience. If they prayed and did not get what they asked for, then the Bible cannot be trusted on the subject of prayer. In this case, if they have sexual desires for someone of the same gender and the Bible says it is sin, then the Bible must be wrong.

    You are wasting your cyber-breath and your cyber-time trying to use the Bible to prove something to people who do not believe the Bible (or, at least some portions of it).

    But YOU DO believe the Bible - and I presume you believe all of it. YOU DO accept Paul as inspired. And with what Paul said in Romans 1:28, you need to leave UKcatsfan aloone. You can’t change his mind if God can’t. And with what Paul said in Romans 1:32, you may as well save yourself the frustration of addressing Old Harry Peters. These people are simply personifying what Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, told us.

    Homosexuality is nothing new. It was around in the time of the Old Testament and in the time of Paul. It is in the Roman emperor’s palace. It’s been in the Catholic church. Through this website, I have come to learn that it is in SGM, CCM, and probably the entire alphabet soup of religious entertainment. And I know for a fact that it is in the church of which I am a member. It is ubiquitous. To some, that means it must be OK. To others, that proves nothing of the sort.

    My point in addressing you is to simply say that you are casting your pearls before people who do not appreciate them. Save your pearls for people who do appreciate them. All we are getting here are hardening of the arguments. Those who began by believing that homosexuality is a sin believe it now more than ever. And those that believe that God did not say anything of the sort, believe that now more than ever.

    I appreciate and admire you but I believe your efforts are misguided, sir.

  155. SGfan wrote:

    #143 UKCatsfan

    I’ll keep this just as short, LOL. If you reread our posts, as I have, you’ll see that you are the only one that has repeated arguments. I have just answered those arguments with truth. You answer back with speculation and subjectivity. I have read the Bible from a Historical perspective, but that is not the only way and that still does not change the truth within. You do have to read it from a spiritual and literal perspective as well. I’m beginning to see that your problem is either not knowing how to properly apply scripture or not knowing scripture. Sure you can quote a few verses, but you have to know what those verses mean in the full context they were written.
    I know I was born straight, because I was created in the image of God. You were too, but your homosexuality was not (it is a by product of sin/ a pervesion of God’s plan caused by sin). If God calls homosexuality an abomination, then it can not be a characteristic applied to his image.
    You said, “I’ll challenge you to a game of football, baseball, basketball, whatever anytime you choose. Just promise me, you won’t bring this up! ” LOL!!!!! That would be fun, but I wouldn’t want to make you cry anymore than you are already. It is obvious that I have “ruffled your feathers” and that you have been forced to think. You are still defensive and I expected that. I guess my final point is, I look back at our conversation and my conscience is clear. I’m still praying for ya! I have to answer our friend SGFAN65 now and then I am finished. We can go on about this for days, but until you open your heart and allow God and His Word to speak, you’ll still be just as defensive and nothing more than just another angry, gay, and lost man. That is not judgmental, that is fact based on scripture and observation of this conversation. Again, I’m praying for you.

  156. BUICK wrote:

    Joe,
    One other thought, since I know that some, like Irishlad, have a real problem with Paul. In James 1:13ff, James addresses this issue that my sin is God’s fault: He made me this way so I am not responsible for my sin. James goes on to say, “each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.” It is not just the homosexual who is enticed to sin by his own evil desires. That’s what lead to heterosexual sin, to stealing, to obesity, to lying and to a host of other sins, too. ANYONE who says it is God’s fault because God gave me these desires, doesn’t get it. James concludes this paragraph by warning that, “Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”

    I’m not making this stuff up; it really is in the Bible and it really is borne out in this series of exchanges.

    But Joe, you are making as much progress here trying to reason with those who have rejected God’s Word as if you went to the cemetery and tried to reason with those who are physically dead. Dead is dead and you can’t raise the dead.

  157. SGfan wrote:

    #144 SGFAN65,
    I see you know what the Trinity is. However, you don’t know His voice. God will not comfort you in your sin. Yes, God is the only one who knows exactly what you have prayed, but the evidence is still clear in the life you live. I suspect that your prayer has dealt more with a spirit of “God make this right” instead of “God make me more like you”. All I suggested before is for you to seek God. That is what I said you should do. There is no need to take offense to that. All of us need to seek Him. I may never understand your particular experience, but I do understand what it is like to have sin in your life that is so much a part of you that it seems impossible to overcome. I know that without God’s help, none of us could overcome our sin. I read your suggestion about trying to be attracted to men and nearly laughed out of my chair. You see, for me that would be absurd, not for the reasons you are thinking though. Sure I am not attacted to men that way, but further more I would be going against the very nature that God created in me when He transformed my life. You see, He is God of all of my life, not just the bits and pieces I let Him have. I have died to the flesh and am alive in Christ. Christ was not and is not and never will be gay, so your suggestion is impossible. In fact, it is nearly blasphemy.
    I have thrown no “fiery judgmental darts” but only stated the truth of scripture. If anyone threw such darts, I guess you would have to blame God. After all, He has destroyed cities in part because of this type of sin, so I guess you’ll have to point your anger at God. There is no piety or soapbox mentality here as you have implied. The fact that I have carried on this conversation with you as long as I have without damning you to Hell is more compassion than most would have shown. I have allowed you to make your points and I have responded respectfully without ever denegrating you, which is far more than you can say looking at your answers. It seems that you and other homosexual defenders are all about tolerance until someone disagrees with you, then you throw that tolerance out the window (or in your case closet) and start trying to demean the opposing view. Wow, talk about leading by example.
    I do pray for you and I do covet your prayers. I fear that if your prayers are for me to see the truth, you may get the answer “He does, you don’t”. But, if you are praying, then go ahead. At least I know then you are talking to God and He has the chance to talk back.
    Finally, I would love to see you and UtCatsfan have mansions on either side of me in Heaven. That would mean that you finally overcame this addiction, that you finally allowed God to be just that in every aspect of your life. As it stands now, I don’t have to worry about that property value. Sin will not enter into Heaven. There will be no homosexuality there. If so, God will have to go back and apologize to Sodom and Gamorrah. I think I am finished with this conversation. You guys have begun to bore me. You bring the same old arguments without any knowledge of God’s Word to back it up, only your so called feelings. Feelings that are subject to a flawed humanity with a predisposition to sin can never take the place of God’s Word. Again, sorry if that hurts. It is just truth

  158. Harry Peters wrote:

    You didn’t say that JR. Tell Harry Peters you didn’t say that. You think gay people have demons? How many demons have you exorcised? I’ve not seen a single person on this site who has identified themselves as gay who has tried to hit on or convert anyone else to being gay. On the other hand, you fight dirty by saying that if someone is gay they have demons and that they should be like you, which I presume is either heterosexual or celibate (maybe because you can’t get any). When did God whisper it in your ear that gay people have demons? Harry Peters was a choir director for many years. I had a gay man, whom I recruited to sing in the choir. One of the other choir members inquired, “did you ask him about his sexual orientation?” I put it right back to him, “Did I ask you yours when you joined the choir?” You all are making Harry Peters angry. My wife, Fonda, agrees. Why are we even having to have this hateful dialogue? We are all equal in God’s sight. God loves us all. Harry Peters loves everyone just the same. As a matter of fact, to paraphrase Billy Graham’s quote, I love my gay brothers and sisters more. You vipers have not had to sacrifice anything to take your place in the church. My gay brothers and sisters have been persecuted. It’s time for it to stop! How can we represent Jesus Christ with all of this hatred in our hearts? They are showing that they are better men and Christians than the rest of us by their willingness to love even when they are not being shown the same respect and love by their Christian Brothers and Sisters. Harry Peters has never marched on anything, but the clear differences I am seeing between “straight” (whatever the hell that is) and gay are drawing me into the corner to fight for the underdog and I would do anything to help them be accepted into the church that I can. I KNOW they would be accepted at my home church. We have gay members…and guess what? They are treated exactly the same as everyone else. Here’s more. YOU have gay people in your church. You may not know who they are and they may be afraid to ever be truthful about it. You MOST LIKELY have gay people in your own family. Although you all know how much I love Fonda, sex should not define us and it is certainly no litmus test of Christianity. We all have some connection or appreciation for SG Music, otherwise we wouldn’t be here. You zealots, Bible Beaters and Fundies, tell me where in the WORD it says to venomously hate people because they are not “the same as you.” Do you not recognize that the Samaritans were hated in exactly the same way and with the same justifications? I really don’t want to spoil your “Puritanical Fest,” but have you read the rather graphic description of David and Jonathan’s love for each other? Old Harry Peters is a conservative, but when you read the account of that story, you could sure be led to believe that it was more than “brotherly love.” God loves us all! God has been merciful to us all! Harry Peters is not looking to God for justice. Harry Peters is begging at the feet of God for mercy.

  159. John McDonald wrote:

    The gay men on this post have said that they are not ashame of who they are, and that they have “come out of the closet.” So why are they not using their real names if they are not ashamed of their lifestyle?

    Seems to me they are still ducting inside the closet.

    Dr. Joe - Thanks for standing on God’s Word!!!

  160. Joe wrote:

    Buick-

    Thank you for your words, and your points are well-taken. The phrase “pearls before swine” had actually never entered my head during this discourse; swine they are not, but instead, sadly deluded fellow human beings. I feel sorry for them now; I feel overwhelming sadness for what they face in eternity.

    My thought was kinda that of the Psalmist, when he said “the entrance of God’s Word gives light”. This IS living seed; and the Spirit of God can use it to bring about repentance, light, and life. But if, as you suggest, hearts are permanently hardened, then it really is… too little too late.

    My bigger questions in all of this are why Doug continually posts these articles and lead-ins, why he regularly chastises those of us who oppose this Scripturally, and why this subject is even an issue to him. There are many who have visited here who would really like to know.

  161. Scott wrote:

    hmmm….i wonder if Ray Boltz is single…kinda cute….

    kinda….

  162. Harry Peters wrote:

    #142 (SurprisedtoLearn): Who died and appointed YOU the gate keeper? It’s also very interesting that you know exactly how God thinks. Isn’t that sort of like Lucifer and elevating yourself to God’s status? Lucifer did NOT intend to murder God, only to lower his self esteem. All you want to do is judge and trample people under your feet so that you can feel superior. Just remember, the greatest shall be least and the least shall be greatest. You all have the spirit of fear and hatred and I don’t find that ANYWHERE in the teachings of Jesus.

  163. Harry Peters wrote:

    Harry Peters Prayer

    Dear Great God in Heaven,

    Have mercy on the souls of those who judge and hate and whose hearts are full of bigotry. Today, it is sexual orientation. Yesterday, it was women being the weaker sex. The day before, it was that a black man was not equal to whites and that slavery was justified by the Bible. God Forgive Us! We are so blinded by fear and prejudice that we can’t see our way. Help us to be the Church…and not just another meaningless civic group. Forgive us, I pray most earnestly. Please be with those who are considered to be “the least of these” in our society. Help us to be less like human beings and more like You.

    In the name of Jesus,

    Harry (and Fonda) Peters

  164. Brett wrote:

    Wade, I agree most never had a deep relationship with their dad. They couldn’t identify with a man when they were young and as such look in the wrong direction by explaining they were born that way.

  165. Harry Peters wrote:

    Joe: Maybe Doug is a Christian. I’m not saying he is, but what if he were a GAY Christian? Wouldn’t it make sense that a Christian or a Gay Christian would come down hard on Pharisees (holy people) like you?

  166. Harry Peters wrote:

    #153 (Wading In) Soli Deo Gloria! To God, Alone, Be the Glory! You GET it! Thanks be to God for you and your testimony.

  167. Joe wrote:

    Harry- 2 very brief things.

    What things, if any in, your mind, are totally forbidden in the life of a child of God? It seems as if a professing Christian can do anything and be anything, and it is fine with you.

    And if you are saying here that the love David and Jonathan had for each other as friends was homosexual, then sir- you are a total idiot. David lost 4 kids over misplaced heterosexual love. Are you REALLY suggesting this?

  168. Suprisedtolearn wrote:

    #142 I am not the gate keeper, but I do know the MAN!!!!!! What I posted came from the BIBLE….I am not judgemental as you say, but I am a fruit inspector. I can see rotten fruit from good. In NO way am I trying to elevate myself up to God’s level, nor trying to say what he thinks. I only put down what IS written in the Bible. In my KJV Bible. Oh Lucifer (satan) didn’t mean to murder God? HOW in the world can someone go through what Jesus went through and it not be called murder? WHAT BIBLE do you read? Just to lower his self esteem? Man you better pick up your Bible and blow off the dust and read it. I hate no one, but I hate sin. I am far from perfect, but I have a close personal relationship with God, and I ask for forgiveness daily. I try to uplift those less fortunate, and that includes those on this blog that need Christ. Yes, I believe that homosexuality is a sin. The adulterous woman, God forgave her, but he told her to GO and SIN no more. The same he would tell a homosexual. GO and SIN no more. That would mean to change from their ways. I’m not sure what I said that hit such a nerve, but I sure did. May God be with you HP and open your eyes as well as others here. That’s not judging, they have admitted to living in sin. Also, I can’t remember where it’s at, but God says, if we don’t believe in the truth, we will fall for anything. Now that may be paraphrased some, but that is the meaning of the verse.

    Strait is the gate:
    1. Matthew 7:13
    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    2. Matthew 7:14
    Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    Matthew 7
    Many are called:
    1. Matthew 20:16
    So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    2. Matthew 22:14
    For many are called, but few are chosen.

  169. Suprisedtolearn wrote:

    Sorry I hit the wrong key, I meant #162. I told you I wasn’t perfect. LOL Oh well, #142 was my post anyway.

  170. BUICK wrote:

    Joe, I never used the word “swine”. I said you were casting your pearls before PEOPLE who do not appreciate them. (Or, as some like to put it, “ppl” or “peeps” or whatever.)

  171. BUICK wrote:

    Hey, isn’t it interesting what Doug titled this thread back at the beginning? “Coming Out From Among Them” is a reference to 2 Corinthians 6:17 where Paul (sorry Irishlad, Doug made the reference) said:
    “Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”

    It would seem that Doug’s inference is that the homosexuals should “come out from among” the other homosexuals and be separate from those who are involved in uncleanliness so that the Lord will receive them. Those who think that Doug’s tendency to frequently raise this issue bespeaks a pro-gay agenda - may have misunderstood his intent. Since he titled this thread “Coming Out From Among Them” perhaps he is hoping that some may be exposed to God’s truth, repent and be restored.

    Maybe not but then again there is some reason he chose that particular scriptural tag for his headline.

  172. Suprisedtolearn wrote:

    I left off something in my above comment. Lucifer thought he had killed Jesus, on the cross. I’m sure that he rejoiced when Jesus was put into the tomb, but on the third DAY he arose again, and is ALIVE and WELL today. So satan (sic) did fail in that respect. Praise God!!!!

  173. Jake wrote:

    We have certainly come a long way from where this all began, with Ray Boltz coming “out of the closet.” With all the arguing and shouting back and forth, has anyone thought to pray for him? Here is a man who ministered to many of us over the years. We need to pray for him, for his family, and for his now ex-wife, as well as for all those he has ministered to over the years, many of whom are heartbroken or worse. Statn would love nothing more that to see people’s faith shattered because they have trusted in a man more than the God he sang about for so many years.

    All the shouting back and forth is getting wearying. As a believer who places his trust in the authority of the inspired and complete Word of God, I certainly understand the passion that Joe and others have in quoting Scriptures, but I think the feelings have become so intense that nobody is winning the argument. Why don’t we just stop, everybody take a few breaths of air, and let’s pray for Ray Boltz, which is what this thread started out as.

  174. irishlad wrote:

    An observance:if jostling Joe et al could’nt Bible quote, they’d be like Italians conversing with their hands tied behind their backs(all you S&M christians,don’t be getting exicited now)joke by the way.Buick,the only problem i have with Paul is;his ego. In modern terms he’s Donald Trump to to the power of ten.

  175. apathetic wrote:

    Apathetic thinks Harry Peters must believe anyone can live however they wish and their sin should be accepted not corrected. I have seen no fiery darts of hate in this post. There is no diatribe here. Anyone who quotes Gods word is thought of as a hatemonger and homophobe. Harry said to #142 “that it’s very interesting that you know exactly how God thinks” How do we know God and who He is and what He thinks accept by reading His word? That’s exactly what has been quoted in most of these posts, God’s word. If you are to be offended, take it up with God. It is His words that are being quoted.

  176. Suprisedtolearn wrote:

    Jake, I agree with you. I have gay friends and I know of at least one artist that is rumored to be gay, and I adore the man. I adore his singing, but it dosn’t make it right. I like some of Ray Boltz work, and it’s a shame that this is the route he has taken. This is my last post on this subject. It is not up to me whether you go to Heaven or to Hell, but it is up to me to share the truth with you.
    Lev. 18:22 talks about not lying with mankind as womankind—it is an abomination.
    Lev.20:13 basically says the same thing, but it says that their blood shall be on them.
    This is just a couple of scriptures, there are others, but they’ve all been quoted here, but…
    In Revelations 17-it speaks of the great Harlot. Verse 5 specifically says that upon her forehead was a name written. Mystery Babylon… but it goes on to say, that she is the Mother of Harlots, and the Abominations of the Earth. I think that covers homosexuality… I don’t think anything else needs to be said…Later chapters talk about how she will be destroyed… It says nothing about her going to Heaven. Draw your own conclusions. If you are a Christian there isn’t but one conclusion—I think this proves that homosexuality is wrong, it’s a sin… BTW, I’m not saying that it’s the only one, it’s not, just people try to excuse it as not being a real sin, not being wrong.. Honestly, I hope I’m totally wrong and everyone is right. I sure don’t want to see my gay friends miss Heaven, because of their sexual preference.

  177. CER wrote:

    We all struggle with sin, sometimes the same sin our whole lives, but we have to remember, THIS LIFE IS BUT A VAPOR. We are not put on this earth to necessarily be happy, or have our desires fulfilled. We are put here to KNOW GOD AND TO MAKE HIM KNOWN. We do that by following His Word, and the Bible is very clear about homosexualalitly. We will have all eternity for complete fulfillment and happiness beyond our wildest dreams!

  178. CER wrote:

    PS: NO# 41, BUICK
    If anyone has not read BUICK NO# 41 please do take the time to read it.

  179. CER wrote:

    Denying your flesh is what the whole term “Take up Your Cross and Follow Jesus” is all about. We were never promised an easy life on earth - but for those who overcome (not just homosexuality - but whatever sin and addictions hold our minds like a vice-grip).. for those who overcome these sins, addictions, and strong holds - and follow Jesus - there is a promise of life eternal, no more suffering, no pain, no temptations, no more death, no sorrow, no tears! I pray that Ray will “take up his cross” and fight his flesh. Jesus, fasted 40 days and nites, suffering all the temptations that we might suffer, so He could walk with us during the storms. He hung on a cross - bled and died .. such torment, to help us to be overcomers! We’re not being “judgemental” to say that homosexuality is a sin - according to the Holy Bible - homosexuality is a sin. Jesus loves Ray Boltz, HE just hates the sin. So, we should love and pray that the Lord would reveal truth in his life once again.

  180. jgurnett wrote:

    Anybody who doesn’t understand the reason for all the pro-homosexual posts and article links on this site has their head in the sand.

  181. UKCatsfan wrote:

    Ok, I’ve been out since last night, but I figured the battle would rage on. And, I was right. I’m just going make a few quick statements.

    159, John McDonald: I never use my real name on the internet. And you shouldn’t either.

    And, my old friend Sgfan: I’m not defensive in the slightest. I’m just secure. And please, you’re really one to talk about someone taking verses out of context. Practically every verse you’ve posted has been out of context.

    And as far as my “crying,” i know the comment was partially made in jest, about the b-ball game and all but, in all seriousness, i’m not crying at all. In fact, I’ve laughed at 90 percent of the posts on this board!

  182. SGfan wrote:

    #180 UKCatsfan
    I know I said I was finished, but you said the following:
    “And please, you’re really one to talk about someone taking verses out of context. Practically every verse you’ve posted has been out of context.”

    Prove it. Prove me wrong by schooling me on the context of scripture. Show me where I have taken any scriptural reference out of context. I beg you. Prove it! Can’t wait to hear this one.

  183. Joe wrote:

    The comments back-and-forth of the last 5 days have been replaying in my mind and heart. Various names and personalities have taken sides on either side of this issue. Any of us who have participated can readily remember those who took the one side, and those who took the other.

    So what’s the difference? What separates the two? I read back over a few, and it is most striking, and worthy of thought, I believe…as this thread winds down.

    Those who have taken a stand against homosexuality, have done so…from Gods Word, as His point of view.

    Those who are homosexuals, plus their supporters, categorically deny the inerrancy and literal value of the Bible. It has been amazing to hear the reasons why they discard what has been plainly written.

    The words Paul wrote were HIS, and not the Lord’s. Paul’s words are full of hate and bigotry.

    The Bible is incomplete. The OT at best is archaic; at worst, a collection of fairy tales.

    Many thousands of people, including this class on this board, do not interpret the Bible literally.

    Those who do, and accurately quote Scripture to be the ONLY support for their feelings,…..

    Are Pharisees/holy people, who judge and hate homosexuals.

    Are full of bigotry, and by quoting Scripture, have persecuted gay brothers and sisters.

    Have shown no mercy in quoting Scripture.

    Are using the Bible to bash people over the head with it.

    Are condemning people to hell without hope.

    Are using the Bible to support their own personal ignorances and prejudices.

    Judgment and proof texting with Scripture is a very dangerous thing.

    So what is the issue here? Amazingly, it is exactly the very same thing that occurred between Eve and Satan in the garden. Solomon once asked “is there anything new under the sun?” Well, the dichotomy revealed here in this discussion is as old as Eden.

    God said. Plainly, clearly, and most understandably. God made one unalterable, specific, and concrete statement.

    And Satan asked “HAS God really said?”

    And THAT was the basis of Eve’s fall, and the resultant sin that metastasized into every subsequent human being born into the family of man.

    So here we are. Nothing has changed from Eden. There are some that believe God (Abel). There are many who categorically reject Him (Eve, Adam, Cain).

    It happened then. It still happens now. It happened here.

    And Wade- after asking me a half-dozen times to answer Harry’s question, and Harry- after saying no one has ever been able to answer it- the answer is in post #107. Did you both miss it?

  184. UKCatsfan wrote:

    OK, I went back and re-read every one of your posts that were in direct response to me. You quoted 1 Kings 14:24; here is the King James version: “And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.”

    Now, I’ll give this much to you. Taking that at face value, it sounds like God is calling sodomites an abomination. However, if you read the rest of the chapter, you’ll see that God is specifically addressing Male Prostitues. In fact, in the ORIGINAL TRANSLATION the word PROSTITUTE is what was used instead of sodomite, as well as in some current translations. Leave it to good ole King James to change God’s words.

    I’ll go you one further as well, when Paul was talking about the Church at Corinth, once again, male prostitution. The same is true for the Romans verce, specifically older males taking young boys for sexual gratification.

    So, not only did you take the Kings reference out of context but you also didn’t search used a translation that totally changed the original text. And, you can take that to the bank my friend, google it.

    Now for more important matters though. In your 155 post, you say that I’m an “angry, gay, lost man.” PLEASE don’t make personal presumtions of me! I haven’t of you. You don’t know me, you know nothing about me excpet that I’m gay and that’s all you seem to be concerned about. For your information, I’m not angry at all. A little discouraged the people are so closed minded and full of hate but not angry. I’m not lost. I’ve told you I’m saved time and time again. Let God judge my heart, and you judge your own. He knows if I’m saved or not and you can’t even being to fathom God’s grace or wisom. The only thing you got right in your presumption of me is “gay man” because, thats all you see when you look at me. How sad. And you say I’m the one defining myself by my homosexuality? Quite the opposite, thats how YOU define me sir.

  185. SGfan wrote:

    # 184 UKCatsfan

    Nice try. Lets look at the historical context (which I know you like to do) of the verses you questioned, by the way I always cite NIV because of the ease of understanding which may be helpful in your case. You see, in those days women would not have been able to be visiting the prostitutes especially in the temples. The passage is still referencing sodomy, and while prostitution itself is wrong a point was made to highlight the male prostitution because of the abomination of homosexual acts. That is looking at it from a historical, spiritual, and literal context. That is why you see the original word in the original manuscripts was exclusive to this type of prostitution. That is why you see many translations using sodomite in the place of prostitute because there is not a word in the English language to cover the particular word used in the original. It is a toss up then for sodomy and prostitution, but the point is it was homosexuality that was being highlighted along with the prostitution. You may want to do more than just google it if you want to win this discussion with me. Next try? By the way, that last paragraph sure sounded like a bunch of crying and whining to me.

  186. Practical Fellow wrote:

    I guess I’m not surprised by the content of Doug’s update post on this thread - just that he posted it at all. I know it’s his blog and his opinions, but it feels like he’s crossed an invisible line now. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think Doug has now overplayed his hand and this is the beginning of averyfineline’s end.

    But it was a good run while it lasted.

  187. UKCatsfan wrote:

    You know Sgfan, I gave you much more credit than this. You’re the one who is sounding really childish. I did “much more” than google to find my answers, I was telling you to do that. Actually, I didn’t have to turn to the web, I know MUCH more than you give me credit for. And, I wasn’t referring to women visiting the male prostitues, I was referring to men visiting them. Any form of prostitution is wrong. And for the record, I don’t need the NIV version for “ease of understanding which may be helpful in my case” Don’t make personal attacks on my intellect, thank you.

    And how was my last paragraph crying and whining? I have nothing to cry about. Not a thing. Oh, I weep for people like you, but I don’t cry for me. You see, you’re the WORST kind of Christian, the holier than thou, sanctimonious, self-righteous, Bible-banging, soul patrol kind that give Christians everywhere a bad name. It’s no wonder people are turning away from traditional congregations and denominations in droves. I myself still attend a Baptist church, albeit an independent one. And, guess what, most people there know I’m gay. But, they also know ME so, while they may not agree my being gay, they do accept me, just like my family does. I may not agree with some in the congreation but, guess what, that’s what being in the family of God is all about. You have a lot to learn my friend and A LOT of spiritual maturing to do. See, I can get just as personal attacking as you and Dr. Joe have been. And, guess what, there’s gonna be a whole lot more people in Heaven than you think. And, I’m here to tell you, I’m gay and going to be gay till the day I die and I’ll still be right up in Heaven, walking those same streets you’re going to.

    I firmly believe that you are saved and I firmly believe that you know scripture well. But don’t make the presumption that I know it less just because we have differences of opinion. That, my friend, is childish. Grow up, be a man, accept the fact that you are not God, and you don’t know EVERYTHING there is to know about the Bible. You don’t know what all the hundreds of people that contributed to the Bible had in their minds when they were writing the scriptures (and neither do, nor do I pretend to) and that there are God fearing, God loving Christians that are different than you. Just becuase their different doesn’t mean that their wrong. That’s your opinion. And don’t say “no, that’s God’s opinion. It’s YOUR opinion of what God’s opinion is.

    But I’m finished arguing with you too. It’s fruitless. You have sank to the ranks of personal attacks on my faith, my intelligence, my family; me in general just like Dr. Joe did. Honestly, I thought better of you. I hope you have a nice life, brother and wish you nothing but the best. And, again I’ll envoke the words of Vestal Goodman to close, “if you like it great, if you don’t, tough.”

  188. Lauren wrote:

    Methinks some of you are protesting way too much. What are you trying to hide?? For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

  189. Dexter wrote:

    WOW…we are all FOOLS….NOW I know why Ray Boltz is gay…it’s not his fault…it’s the Contemporary Christian Music…it is apparently the Devils music…according to a very well known southern gospel songwriter….copy and paste this and have a read on the comments for this video….now I just feel silly…how could I not have seen it..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUy_koUcjZI

  190. J wrote:

    I hope Doug is getting a hearty chuckle from all of this nonsense. I know that I am.

    If some of you could just open your eyes, you would see truth not only in the bible, but in the experiences of man with God. If you have to deny homosexuals salvation to not kill yourselves and still believe in God, do it. All I know is my personal experiences with God. From those experiences, I know His love, sufficient grace, and my salvation. It seems that some of you are just shallow people, believing in a shallow God. God is so much bigger than your boxed in view and limited scope of understanding. If God can do anything, why can’t/wouldn’t he accept homosexuality? Maybe I am reaching a little too far…

    My guess is that those speaking out against homosexuality are over 50 and go to KJV only churches. Maybe I am wrong…. oh well, wouldn’t be the first time. Maybe I am reaching too far again.

    “Open mine eyes that I might see….”

  191. jbb wrote:

    #190: you said “If God can do anything, why can’t/wouldn’t he accept homosexuality??” Because it is sin and God will not accept sin.

  192. nonSGfan wrote:

    Harry stinking Peters you never cease to amaze me. Just Because somebody has the stance that something is WRONG doesn’t mean they “HATE” the person.
    I personally have witnessed one on one with SEVERAL homosexuals. The only success I got is getting one to admit that his lifestyle was wrong, and he knew through his conscience it was wrong, but I’ve never seen one pray the prayer of salvation.

    I don’t hate homosexuals in the least, their is NO hatred or anger in my heart whatsoever for those people. But just like i believe murder, lying, slander, love of money, pride, greed, fornication, drunkeness , and MANY other things are wrong, I believe homosexuality is wrong.

    A homosexual man attempted to sexually assault me at around the age 10 or 11. This did NOT cause me to have hatred for homosexuals, but rather a deeper sense of desire to win them to Christ. Did he attempt that because he was gay? NO, it was because he was a pediphile….but if he were heterosexual, would he have attempted that on a boy??? NO, he would not have.

    Harry stinking Peters….what makes you think all of us “hate” homosexuals just because we believe the lifestyle is wrong??

  193. JM wrote:

    Few things in life ever really change. They may retreat or go out of common discourse for a period of time; but, by and by, they will reappear. Our so-called modern ideas may reinterpret or repackage a particular concept, but we really don’t change things.

    Some of my earliest memories are of people at our small church, responding to the tug of the Holy Spirit on their hearts and kneeling at an altar. The custom of our church was to ask everyone to pray along with the individual and, afterward, to ask the person to testify as to what had brought them to the altar. Even as a child, I can remember person upon person acknowledging how they had refused to see themselves as sinful or needing Christ. Some told involved stories about how they would choose to rationalize their sin and seek to hide from it, based upon perverting the concept that God is Love; ergo, regardless of how I live or what I do, God must love me.

    Decades later, I can confirm that God loves everyone. God loves Osama Bin Laden; God loves John McCain and Barak Obama; God loves Ray Boltz. And God loves me. However, and here’s the big bone-in-the-throat, God does not and will never love sin. And contrary to our blogmaster’s view that all things, in time, will be acceptable, God’s view of sin does not change. God gave mankind the means to populate the earth and to enjoy the totally unselfish sharing of ourselves witha chosen mate: it’s called sex. As is typical with Satan, he often chooses not to destory the wonderful things God has given us; rather, Satan chooses to pervert and soil those things. So, with mankind as willing co-conspiritors, Satan “gifted” us with adultery, infidelity, pornography, homosexuality, bisexuality, beastiality and all the other myriad of sexual perversions.

    I am not a theologian or biblical scholar. I think we have plenty of them on this thread already. However, I am of a clear mind and have the ability to understand unambiguous concepts. So, it is unlikely that God would condemn something as sin in his Word and yet permit individuals to partake and revel in it and still claim him as their Lord. Or for those who appreciate a more basic theology…if it walks, quacks and looks like a duck, it’s likely a duck. Sin remains sin. This does not make me a hater or homophobe; just another sinner saved by Grace!

  194. NonSGfan wrote:

    I’m 21 years old, and NOT a KJV only, and I believe totally that homosexuality is wrong.

    Also,

    UKCATS FAN….I am a HUGE cats fan too, so I’m in that boat with you.

    Also, can I ask you, are you actively in the homosexual lifestlye?

  195. SGfan wrote:

    # 187 UKCatsfan

    So you couldn’t back up your claims that I used scripture out of context. Now you get mad at me and throw a temper tantrum. Funny. I didn’t make personal attacks on your intellect, just proved that you were the one misusing scripture and taking scripture out of context. You see, you came into this conversation with the illusion of me being a close minded, red kneck, Bible beaten, King James only Christian and I am far from that. I read many translations and the NIV uses the words male prostitution in the place of sodomy in the places you questioned. Prostitution itself is wrong, and if homosexuality were not a big deal, then the author would not have highlighted the difference so strongly by making a point to highlight the fact that it was male (homosexual) prostitution and that it was detestable. I would give you a history on the word sodomy and its origins connecting it to the city of Sodom, but you have made it clear that as long as my opinion is different than yours, you’ll have none of it and when you are proven wrong you’ll throw all of your open mindedness and tolerance out the window. Your words were:

    “You see, you’re the WORST kind of Christian, the holier than thou, sanctimonious, self-righteous, Bible-banging, soul patrol kind that give Christians everywhere a bad name”

    So much for not stooping to attacking me personally. At least you got one thing right. I am a Christian. I don’t presume to know everything about the Bible, but I do know Who does. I know how to read scripture in context. Finally, I can appreciate that you were a fan of Vestal Goodman, but don’t stoop to start using her out of context now that you have proven that you were trying to remove context from scripture. You see, she like I, would never throw stones at someone like you. She showed people the love of Christ because she understood that it was the only thing that could change them.

  196. SGfan wrote:

    # 187 UKCatsfan
    Oh, and one other thing. I don’t think it would be adequate for me to say that my opinion on this is God’s opinion. I would go a step further and say it is God’s truth. He is the authority. The buck stops with Him. If He says it, then it simply is. Again, we have a record of His truth on the issue in the Bible. Sorry you refuse to accept it.

  197. Joe wrote:

    GOD (the Creator):

    “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh”. (Genesis 2:24 ESV)

    The LORD JESUS CHRIST (the Savior):

    “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh”.
    (Matthew 19:5 ESV)

    THE HOLY BIBLE:

    There is to be no sex of any kind outside of a marriage between a man and a woman. Not a single sex act in all of Scripture is condoned, outside of a male/female marriage. There is not a single marriage in the entire Bible mentioned or hinted at, that is NOT between a man and a woman.

    “Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous”. (Hebrews 13:4 ESV)

    THE HOMOSEXUALS ON THIS THREAD:

    “God made me this way.”
    “What I am doing is not sin”.
    “Having sex with a man is not unnatural”.
    “In spite of what God, Jesus, and the entire Bible teaches on this subject, I know I am going to be in Heaven anyway”.
    “I really don’t care what God, Jesus, or the Bible have to say on this matter. I have made up my mind, and I am proud to tell all-I’m gay. And oh, by the way- I’m also a Christian”.

    What is wrong with THIS picture??!!

  198. NOnSGfan wrote:

    SG fan is right.

    We either take the Bible, believe it, stand on it, and use it….or we should throw it away.

    There is NO in between.

  199. Harry Peters wrote:

    UKCatsFan,

    Old Harry Peters hopes he is not one of the 155 posts that you mentioned. I want to die with a clean conscience and that means that I love everyone with no conditions. I accept everyone as they are and I strongly suspect (and hope) that God does too. You know, so many people here want to help God judge and find reason to kick people out of heaven. Old Harry Peters believes that God is loving and embracing and would do ANYTHING (including allowing His own Son to be crucified) to prevent anyone from perishing. My wife, Fonda, knows that Harry Peters is heterosexual, but guess what? Harry Peters also loves his gay brothers and sisters. What business is it of the church or state to decide who we love and lie down with? Keep the Faith, my brothers, you are MY FAMILY and I’ll suffer with you, if that’s what it takes. Please know just this one thing….there are Christians who love you and accept you and truly WANT you to be part of the family.

  200. Harry Peters wrote:

    Old Harry Peters is very sad. I suspect Jesus is too. How can this much HATRED exist among people who claim to be followeres of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ? You say that you hate the sin and love the sinner. Funny, but Jesus never rubbed the nose of the sinner in his/her sin. He LOVED unconditionally. As you may have guessed, Old Harry Peters believes that sexual orientation was part of God’s creation and that makes it perfect. Harry Peters has never slept with a man or a beast. My love is for Fonda. But why wouldn’t God want everyone to be happy? You all believe in a God of hate and retribution and anger. Harry Peters believes in a God of Love.

  201. Harry Peters wrote:

    #191 Why don’t you just let God speak and decide for Himself? Why do YOU need to be the one who decides what sin is and who should be black listed from heaven because of YOUR beliefs?

  202. UKCatsfan wrote:

    Harry, I was in no way talking about you Brother! No worries with that!

  203. Joe wrote:

    NonSGfan-

    The homosexuals have thrown the Bible away. And so has old Harry Peters.

  204. Jake wrote:

    #201 Harry Peters — I’m not the number 191 you referenced here, but to answer your question — God already has spoken and decided for Himself. That is the point that so many are trying to make. He has spoken to us through His Word, the Bible. And the Bible is clear. And, just as adultery, fornication, and all sexual relations outside of marriage are condemned, so is homosexuality. I didn’t say it, God said it.

    Now, if you have diffiuclty accepting the Bible and what it says about homosexuality, just remember this: You and I have no right to pick and choose what part of the Bible we like and what part we don’t. If you reject some of it, then none of it is reliable. If you cannot accept God’s declarations about sin, then you can’t trust His declarations about His love, His grace, or His salvation. For that matter, if we can’t trust the entire Bible, then how do we know there is even a heaven? Or a personal God? Everything rises or falls on the Bible.

    That is the real question here.

  205. SGfan wrote:

    #200 Harry Peters,

    Here is the main problem I have with your comments, besides the fact that you refer to yourself in third person way too much. You are completely wrong in your assertation that sexual orientation (other than heterosexual) was part of God’s creation. It is a by product of sin (a perversion of God’s plan). By the way, you are part of God’s creation and I guarantee you that you are not perfect. There is none perfect except Him. God does want His creation to be happy as you stated, but the only way that will ever fully happen is to allow Him to be God of all aspects of their lives. Guess what, homosexuality does not fit in that equation as evidenced by scripture. The point is, God has already spoken and decided for Himself on the issue. We have record of this in His Word (the Bible). Maybe you should take some time to read it. I might suggest a class in hermeneutics though. It will help you get proper understanding of context in all three areas of spiritual, literal and historical context. One of those 3 with our the other 2 would be an incomplete understanding, as evidenced by our friend UKCatsfan when he challenged me on context. I believe in a God of Love. He is Love, but in that perfect love there is no room for sin. Sin is the opposite of love and it is born in selfishness. It’s kind of like trying to mix oil and water, just will not happen. The two always separate. Where the oil is, the water can’t be. Where the water is, the oil can’t be.

  206. UKCatsfan wrote:

    #205
    Good Lord, Sgfan, will you PLEASE give it a rest? I DO NOT have a “complete misunderstanding” of scripture just because I UNDERSTAND differently from you. I could say the same thing about you but I don’t because you’re entitiled to your views just like I’m entitled to mine. I realize you’re more than likely an Evangelical who believes that spreading YOUR version of the Gospel is the right thing to do. More power to you, keep right on spreading and right on preaching. But will you PLEASE stop saying I have no understanding of spripture! You have NO understanding of me, or thousands of other people for that matter.

    And, you’ve said that you are a Biblical Literalist. I have a soft spot for Biblical Literalists because I used to be one. So, I know every argument you’re going to present, every “fact” you’re gonna throw out, every verse you’re going to TAKE OUT OF CONTEXT and hurl at me. I’m not hearing anything new.

    Also, as far as my “not backing up” my arguments of you’re lifting things out of context, I went back and re-read AGAIN all your posts directed toward me. You only quoted ONE verse, (scripture and passage location) and that was the 1 Kings reference and I did back that up. You just presented the same old tired counter-argument that, quite franky, doen’t hold water. Go ahead, throw another arrow at me.

    And as far as “temper tantrums,” don’t be condescending to me saying that I’m doing something that a child does to get his way. If anyone is throwing a temper tantrum, it’s you friend. I don’t care whether you see my point of view or not. You’re the one’s that hell-bent (or should I say Heaven bent ;)) to get your way and have everyone see your point of view. And, trust me, we all know where you stand.

    So, like I said in my last post to you, I’m not turning this into a back and forth argument with you. I’m finished. I’ll continue to read and probably comment but I’m no longer going to argue with you. Believe what you want and I’ll believe what I want and I’m leaving it at that. I HOPE you can do the same.

  207. Joe wrote:

    Harry-

    I have an honest and quite serious question to ask you. I will not hammer on you as have the others above. You asked me a question, and I gave you a Scriptural answer. I want an honest and Scriptural answer from you, sir.

    Humanly speaking, who will be in hell, and why?

  208. Harry Peters wrote:

    If Old Harry Peters is “Harry Stinking Peters,” I shudder to think what you must label and call everyone else. I guess you would say all Peters aren’t stinking, just Harrys.

  209. Harry Stinking Peter wrote:

    NonSGFan,

    You might as well throw your Bible away. It’s defective. Mine doesn’t justify hate, bigrotry, etc. I don’t know what version you have, but it is missing all of the pages about God and love. Old Harry Peters is praying for you.

  210. SGfan wrote:

    #206 UKCatsfan

    Again, I welcome you showing me how I used anything out of context. You see, I have not presented my “version” of the gospel. There is only one version. There are many different interpretations, but all subject to the same gospel (truth). I did not say you have no understanding of scripture, just a limited understanding of context. Sure I take the Bible literally at its word, but more than that, I look at it from a spiritual, literal, and historical context. Something I would suggest you try. You continue to challenge me on the 1 Kings passage, but you never answered the reply. If you read my response, you’ll see what the context of that scripture is in the light of a complete contextual knowlege of it. That is not saying that I know everything in the Bible, that would be far from the truth, but what I do know is how to look at it in full (not partial or just historical) context. I have thrown no arrows at you, but if you feel that way, maybe it is conviction. Take that up with God, not me. All I have done is presented the truth. I have done so without ever using all caps to represent yelling ( as you have done hence the temper tantrum) and without ever even calling you such things as and I quote, “the WORST kind of Christian, the holier than thou, sanctimonious, self-righteous, Bible-banging, soul patrol kind “. I believe that is what you said about me a few posts back. I guess coming from you I should consider that a compliment, LOL. Our records speak for themselves my friend and anyone that reads them will see what we have both said. So please don’t pretend that I have just lambasted you with insults and called you names. I have done nothing of the sort, just presented the truth again based on scripture and the conversation we have had. My suggestion to you, if you don’t like it-get over it. Better yet, take it up with God. After all, His Word is what condemns homosexuality as sin. Not mine. I’m still prayin’ for ya. Hope you have a good night.

  211. Joe wrote:

    Harry-

    Quoting God’s Word to prove that homosexuality is an abominable sin, a stench in the nostrils of God, is NOT “hate and bigotry”!!! IT is what GOD says.

    Do you think ANY of us, in this day and age, would be so brazen to even think what God SAYS, let alone say it by ourselves, and on our own? We would be absolutely crazy. In this day of “political correctness”, we would truly be shunned.

    But we are NOT saying these things on our own! We are quoting the God of the Bible, Whose Word you categorically reject.

    Your Bible isn’t defective. It just hasn’t been opened in a long, long time. And when it has been opened, you have discarded half of it.

    And I am still waiting for your answer to my question…post #207.

  212. steelfan wrote:

    We live in a society where so many today can take the Bible and make it say what they want it to say. There is only one true meaning. Why do you think the Bible speaks of hell enlarging it’s mouth daily. We can make as many roads as we want to, to heaven, but there is only one true way and that is the straight and narrow!
    It also says that few will enter. Some of these post’s are proof.
    You can try to justify yourself, but the truth hurts. Sin is sin.

  213. Tom wrote:

    So…….how many of you foaming at the mouth anti-gays are 280lb fat a$$e$, who pig out sunday after church at Cracker Barrel and are on blood pressure and cholesterol meds and couldn’t do one much less 10 push ups?
    The Bible has plenty to say about that too.