Coming out from among them at averyfineline

Coming out from among them

[NOTE: Comments are now closed, since most people stopped saying anything new or illuminating a long long time ago.]

The Washington Blade covers CCM’s Ray Bolz and his decision to be honest and open about his sexuality (this mainstream media treatment of Christian entertainment subculture echoes GQ’s article on Kirk Talley a few years ago; I find it a telling indictment of the Christian press that it is virtually incapable of writing meaningfully about these sorts of stories). I like to think I’ve got a pretty good gaydar, but I did not see this one coming (out). More interesting for southern gospel may be the context lower down where the author talks about Kirk Talley and comes as close as anything I’ve seen in print to saying about Mark Lowry what most of the industry strongly suspects or thinks they know. Money quote:

No artist of Boltz’s prominence has come out. A few minor CCM players have, but their decisions were hardly celebrated.

Marsha Stevens, a Jesus Movement songwriter famous for the Christian folk song, “For Those Tears I Died,” a favorite in youth camps and churches for decades, came out in 1980. She was famously renounced by Bill Gaither, whom she’d been photographed with at one of his “Homecoming” concerts, in 2006.

Kirk Talley, a Southern Gospel singer (a slightly different genre than CCM, though there’s some overlap of the players), confessed to struggling with homosexuality and came out in GQ in 2005. He’s continued singing in churches but only because he’s categorized his sexual orientation as a burden to be carried.

[snip]

Others appear to avoid the topic altogether. Though it’s not fair, of course, to assume a Christian singer who never married is gay, speculation has existed in fan circles for years that single CCM artists like Mark Lowry and Margaret Becker might be gay (Lowry has denied that he’s gay; neither Lowry nor Becker responded to interview requests for this story).

The whole thing is here (Hat tip, C).

Update: Examining the ex-gay movement and GMA responses to Bolz’s coming out, TWO has a cogent dissection of how the rhetoric of “choice” and “lifestyle” is deployed by opponents of homosexuality to deny homosexual orientiation as a basic element of the gay person’s identity, all experiential and (increasingly) empirical evidence to the contrary (and yes, I imagine this will be ardently disputed forthwith). As you can see in the comments here, the discussion of (homo)sexuality is really a proxy fight in the conflict between absolutist Christians, who see the tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality as a real and direct threat to their way of life and values, on the one hand, and on the other, Christian humanists and secularist pluralists, who see the extension of human rights to non-heterosexuals as part of the urgent modern struggle to live up to our own best beliefs about the equality of all men (and women). I have no illusions that this debate will be resolved any time soon, whether religiously, culturally, politically, or legally - even as I refuse to stop believing there must be some intrinsic value in exchanges like the ones going on in comments threads like these, however conflictual they may be. But if history and current trends in changing attitude and beliefs are any indication, anti-gay arguments from the Biblical literalist point of view and the ex-gay perspective will sooner or later take up their place in the dustbin of earnestly held and honestly felt but ultimately discredited bigotries and phobias, alongside Biblical justifications of slavery, phrenological arguments for the inferority of non-white races, and psuedo-scientific claims about the genetic inequality of the sexes. Too many people think because they are on the right side of all those latter issues now that they can’t possibly be on the wrong side of the sexuality issue today, but then I’m sure that’s what pro-slavery preachers and segregationist phrenologists thought, too. Then, as now, this just shows how fundamentally good people can misjudge their position in history and so fail to see that even notionally absolutist worldviews have always had to accommodate themselves to mass-cultural shifts of value and belief (this includes fundamentalist and Biblical literalist evangelicals - witness, for instance, the Southern Baptist Convention’s renunciation of its own racist past). Acknowledging this sort of thing doesn’t make anyone a hypocrite. Just more wonderfully human.

Email this Post

Trackbacks & Pings

Truth Wins Out - Ex-Gay Criticizes Christian Singer’s Sexual Honesty, Misquotes Human Genome Project on 15 Sep 2008 at 7:42 pm

[…] For more insight into the (mis)handling of sexual orientation by the Christian gospel music scene, check out averyfineline. […]

Comments

Harry Peters wrote:

Old Harry Peters appreciates Kirk Talley and Ray Boltz being open about their sexuality. I wonder how many SG artists are as open about their adultery and fornication? You can’t exactly pull a silver eagle with your name on the side of it into the parking lot of an oriental massage parlor. Yes, Kirk Talley and Ray Boltz are gay. What next? EH and all of SSQ are straight?

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 12:27 pm ¶
SGfan wrote:

One word says it all.

Sad. I’ll prat that he experiences the life transformation that only God can do.

Here is an example of someone that has fought the same battle and come out on the winning side.
http://www.dennisjernigan.com/

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 12:39 pm ¶
Joe wrote:

Adultery and fornication are as wrong as is homosexuality. Lives lived for these sins represent human beings who will not inherit the Kingdom of God, no matter what they or others say.

The Word of God is crystal-clear on these points. Irrefutable, except by the liberal arguments of those who post here; those who say “anything goes”, and who don’t give an iota about what the Bible says.

Here is the bigger question. Why does Doug post every pro-homosexuality news byte that comes along? What underlying agenda might he himself have?

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 12:41 pm ¶
DRL wrote:

#3, I do find it interesting that Doug “indicts” the christian press for not being able to write anything “meaningful” (whatever that means) about homosexuality, then calls it a “money quote” when they imply that Lowry is gay just because he’s single.

Gosh, I’m single. Why didn’t anybody ever tell me that I’m gay? I’m so disappointed! All these years I could have been so happy, but now the reality becomes clear … I AM GAY! Oh my, how liberating that was!

*BARF* Is this the Bizarro-world or something???

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 1:25 pm ¶
Joe wrote:

#4-

Here is what you need to know. You are posting on a weblog that condones, excuses, sidesteps, rationalizes, and liberally accepts as “normal”, the subject of homosexuality.

Those who faithfully try to speak for the Word of God, and bring Scriptures to bear on this and other subjects, are regularly scoffed at and ridiculed; called multiple names that are now well-known epithets.

On another thread I stated that this blog has become (not certain if it was ever different) style over substance. Literally all Doug’s posts are from the viewpoint of style, and not substance.

Take his blogs from the NQC as an example. They focus on the sound, whose voice has matured the best, stage effects, hair styles, personalities, who should or should not be on the main stage, all that is wrong with the NQC, who sounded the worst of the evening, etc. etc. etc.

Not a single hint about the spiritual message of the music. Not a single mention of which song blessed his soul, which line reinforced his faith, which chorus made him appreciate more his salvation, which verse brought him closer to Christ, which set brought the Lord the most glory, etc. Nothing of substance.

There is, usually and sadly, very little of spiritual or Scriptural substance here. It is not found in the lead-off posts. And it has become soundly discouraged in the follow-up posts. It’s all about style, folks. And homosexuality is a “style”; a choice of lifestyle, to be exact- condemned by the God of the Bible. But then…that’s substance, and substance doesn’t count for much here.

I guess this is what he means when he headlines what goes on here as “gospel music for the rest of us.”

The lives of many true Christians really DO center on and commit to Scriptural and spiritual substance.However, it is becoming increasingly obvious that this perspective on averyfineline, has been relegated to the decidedly minority and increasingly unpopular “opposing point of view”.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 2:35 pm ¶
rr wrote:

I think it is very unjust to judge anyone with wild speculation. When name calling is done, it can be very damaging to innocent parties. God will judge the hearts, and nothing that is “hidden” will escape any of us.

One of the finest Christian men I know (and not in SG, by the way) is single, in his 50’s. I am sure he is not gay. I would be very sad to think that people would in error point to him, a community leader, as gay, simply because he is single. No one should get married just to avoid a stigma. I think each person has the right to choose the solitude of single life, if that brings contentment to the individual.

And yes, Avery, you do have your radar (or gaydar, as you so aptly said) tuned in all the time. Why is that?

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 2:48 pm ¶
RobinAshley wrote:

Before I say anything else let me say that I don’t know if ML is gay or not. I’ve never really thought he was, but I mean, come on…he does occasionally lend himself to speculation. Let’s not be naive.

As far as this blog as a whole goes, Doug never said that this was a blog to discuss deep Christian theology. It’s a blog to talk about Southern Gospel music, which is what he does. I had a conversation with a friend just last week about the fact that Southern Gospel music, for all the emotion and theology attached to it, still has be run like any other business. So Doug is just doing what he said he would–discussing the music. I thought his NQC blog was great. If I wanted to know how the music touched someone or the story of their salvation, I would read another blog or talk to a friend. But when I come here I expect (at least) semi-objective commentary on the music I love, which is what I always get.

I’ll be praying for Ray Boltz like (hopefully) the rest of you. I’m not liberal on this issue even a tiny bit, but it seems the comments have strayed from the actual issue at hand: Ray Boltz.

xoxo

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 3:27 pm ¶
ng wrote:

Here’s another paragraph from the article:

Kirk Talley initially declined to be interviewed for this story saying he’d “been through enough hell,” but did consent to one comment: “I will definitely be in prayer for Ray,” he said in an e-mail. “He has no idea the crap he will have to endure.”

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 3:51 pm ¶
Brett wrote:

Well I guess I will have to pitch his one cd I own. Talk about luke warm christianity. Jesus will spew out of his mouth.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 3:56 pm ¶
quartet-man wrote:

I am single too and straight as can be. Anyone who thinks being single is definitely gay needs to ask themselves what Christ’s marital status was.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 4:00 pm ¶
SGfan wrote:

Just a thought. This is the description listed by google for the source our gracious host has cited.

“Weekly. Offers local and world news, entertainment, classifieds, free personals, and an events calendar for the gay and lesbian community.”

I would like to ask Doug how often he reads this site. Is he a subscriber and if not, what brought him to this story? Doug, are you looking for a comparison to point to so you can justify “coming out of the closet” yourself? One has to wander simple because of the pro-gay stance you have taken so frequently on this site. Just a thought. By the way, check out the testimony of Dennis Jernigan. I posted a link to his site earlier. I think (as a Christian journalist/critic) you might like to highlight someone who has overcome the addiction to such a sinful lifestyle to become a great songwriter and a witness to others that face the same issues to provide some context. He overcame, so can anyone else with the help of God. He learned that you should not define yourself by your sin (as many homosexuals do) but seek to define yourself by who God wants to be in you. We all have a predisposition to sin, but that does not have to control our lives and when we are delivered from sin, we have to allow the transformative work of God to make us who he wants to be in us. The issue of homosexuality then fades away. God did not make anyone homosexual. Sin makes someone homosexual. God delivers you from sin and that includes homosexuality. Just a quick thought.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 4:04 pm ¶
quartet-man wrote:

#11, considering the hat tip that Doug gave, it appears someone gave him the heads up on the article.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 4:17 pm ¶
AG wrote:

This story about CCM’s Ray Boltz is “Criticism and Commentary on Southern Gospel Music and Culture” how? Simply because Kirk and Mark mentioned?

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 4:39 pm ¶
SOGoFan wrote:

I think yall would be amazed at all the “gay” southern gospel singers in this industry… i have met quite a few!

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 4:48 pm ¶
RobinAshley wrote:

13…it’s “commentary” on SG “culture” because it affects Christian music as a broad genre, of which SG is a part. Also, as you said, Kirk and Mark are mentioned…

10…Hahaha. Nice point.

9…Why in the world would you throw out his CD? Does the music stop carrying the message that it did before? Sorry..I’m just starting to get flashbacks to the Marsha Stevens “I’m-throwing-out-all-of-my-Homecoming-tapes” debacle.

xoxo

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 4:51 pm ¶
Grave Digger wrote:

Oh well, Robin . . . #9 makes almost as much sense as my friend that’s getting rid of all his Jimmy Buffett CDs because Buffett is voting for Obama.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 5:23 pm ¶
SGfan wrote:

#12 quartet-man

Yes, I see that. Thank you. However, I do still find it rather interesting that our dear host would use this particular site as a source without providing some context. He has been very defensive in time past and seems in some cases to have supported a pro-homosexual agenda. That is what is troubling me. How can someone claim to be a form in the art of Southern Gospel and not understand the truth and principles that form the very foundation of the art form?

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 5:33 pm ¶
irishlad wrote:

I noticed the guys who posted to say they were single and straight didn’t enlighten us more. Are they celebate or are they fornicating? It’s the logical conclusion after all. Personally i’d be very wary of a single guy who’s celebate,all that pent up frustration couldn’t be healthy. I’ve never been married,but i’m definitely not frustrated. And i’m not gay.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 5:54 pm ¶
pk wrote:

I found the article on Christianity Today yesterday and it had the link to WashingtonBlade….so there are ways to find the articles without having to surf the web for gay material….

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 6:10 pm ¶
SGfan wrote:

I meant to say a form of authority in the art of Southern Gospel. Oops. Sorry.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 6:14 pm ¶
quartet-man wrote:

#17 SGfan, I would surmise that Doug finds nothing wrong with it and I totally disagree. I do understand his posting it as it is news and does relate to Christian music. As far as supporting the music and not expecting lifestyles to reflect that, perhaps I can be of some assistance. There was a member on the Oak Ridge Boys board who liked their gospel music, but was an atheist. He didn’t agree with the lyrics being true, but he liked the style, performance, singing etc. I guess it could be the same of those of us who like kiddy songs or songs about Santa. I am not saying that Doug is an atheist or doesn’t believe, just that one can appreciate the music and either not believe or have different denominational beliefs.

#18 irishlad

I have shared that information before, but will do it again. I am a virgin and will remain one until the day I get married or die. God created us and Paul said in His word that it is better to remain single, but if not then it is better to marry than burn. Christ remained single and was able to and He was in human form. If it were not doable, then God would have made allowances.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 6:17 pm ¶
FirstNighter wrote:

I’m almost 40 and single….not really by choice, but my life isn’t over either. I’d like to be married, but not for the sake of being married. I’ve just not met the right man for me.

I was in the sg industry for years…sure hope people didn’t assume I was gay because I wasn’t married.

But it is true…there are more gay people in sg than anyone realizes…and more cheating going on than anyone wants to know. A lot of the “heroes” wouldn’t be so high if the fans who demand spiritual integrity knew the way they actually live their personal lives. Doesn’t take away from their ability to sing…but it does detract from the believability of their witness.

Is it any worse than a mean spirit or a lofty attitude and treating people badly who don’t fulfill your expectations with contempt and rudeness? Our tendency to categorize sins as worse than others needs to be examined and we all need to be reminded of how much we’re forgiven for on a daily basis. Not condoning open, willful sin that continues without repentance, but hoping we can show more grace and let God talk to them about what He wants changed.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 7:10 pm ¶
Fezzik wrote:

Not sure if this is the article that pk referred to, but yes, it has been somewhat covered in the “Christian Press” http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2008/09/ray_boltz_comes.html
interesting to note how the “discussion” over there covers many of the points that have been argued over the years here, ad nauseum, but without the rancor. Are SG fans that much less civil than CCM fans?

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 7:47 pm ¶
Joe wrote:

That there are corrupt policemen, does NOT justify corrupt policemen. Are we forgetting that the G in SGA stands for “gospel”!? The gospel is “Christ died for our sins.” The fact that so many professing Christians so callously excuse these heinous sins, almost makes the death of Christ a colossal and total waste.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 8:12 pm ¶
quartet-man wrote:

Firstnighter, I don’t think anyone here is dismissing that there aren’t others in SG, that there aren’t other sins (adultery, fornication etc.) It just seems that the homosexual agenda seems to be pushed a lot more often and tried to be crammed down our throat as okay, normal, something to be celebrated and accepted and anyone who dares say it is wrong is called intolerant, hateful, homophobic (not an accurate term because I have no fear, irrational or otherwise of it) etc. The more they try to make it acceptable and preach it is okay, the more we will stand against it. I believe it wouldn’t be discussed as much if so many weren’t so political in trying to force its acceptance and so quick to try to silence anyone who speaks against it.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 8:15 pm ¶
quartet-man wrote:

#22 Firstnighter, by the way “How YOU doin’?”

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 8:16 pm ¶
quartet-man wrote:

#24, you’re right. Just because there are corrupt policemen, SG singers etc. doesn’t make it desirable or right. We are to pattern ourselves after Christ not others.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 8:54 pm ¶
FirstNighter wrote:

Quartet-man…I understand it being rampant and “all over the place”…I’m just saying adultery isn’t talked about at all…it’s ignored. Probably not as much in recent years…or at least with recent artists. We don’t want the heroes of sg to be knocked off their pedestals. Honestly, people don’t really WANT to know the truth about their heroes. You’ll enjoy the music a lot more…and just enjoy it for what it is. The music with the message.

Bottom line is we’re all human and have SOMETHING that we struggle with at some point. We’re just not in the public eye the way they are so it’s not displayed and discussed for all to see, hear, and comment on.

Btw…I’m doing fine….how YOU doin’?! (cracks me up that you used that line…source would fit right into this discussion. ha!)

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 10:31 pm ¶
Mark Crary wrote:

How pathetically sad.

Hard to read.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 11:01 pm ¶
GC wrote:

So Mark Lowry is Gay? Surely that would be a surprise to everyone!

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 11:05 pm ¶
C wrote:

SGFan,
Not that Doug needs defending, but I’m the one who emailed him the link to the Ray Boltz story.
Now before you or anyone else accuse me of promoting the gay lifestyle, allow me to also explain how I came to find it.
Back when all the stuff with Kirk was first being disclosed, I set up a Google alert with his name. You can do that with any name or topic you wish. I’ve never gone back and deleted that alert, just like I haven’t deleted the other 20 or so alerts I have set up over the years.
So I got an email with the link to the story about Boltz through Google alerts because Kirk’s name was mentioned.
I sent the link to Doug because he has addressed the “shoot the wounded” mentality that SG has adhered to for so long. That’s all. I figured that once this information about Boltz spread through the SG world, his great songs like “Thank You” and “The Anchor Holds” that several SG artists have sung over the years would be immediately banned. It’ll be interesting to see if Boltz’s music will, in fact, be banned.
So anyway, just wanted to let you know that I sent the link. Now it’s on me, I guess.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 11:05 pm ¶
Brett wrote:

TO Robin, Cake looks good to eat but if poop was added do you still want to eat the cake. I will rid Ray Boltz cd because it is tainted from a person who is not in the Truth. I want no part of his life.

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 11:08 pm ¶
GC wrote:

brett? So people who were led to a personal relationship to Christ by “Anchor Holds” are not really saved? Are they also tainted?

Posted 13 Sep 2008 at 11:44 pm ¶
RobinAshley wrote:

Brett…I understand, though I don’t agree, with the fact that Ray Boltz and his music may be “tainted” now for you. Still, this doesn’t justify throwing away music that is still JUST AS GOOD as it ever was. Give it away.

I agree, GC (33), that the songs still hold up. He’s a great songwriter, what are ya gonna do? Oh, and your #30 absolutely cracked me up. I mean, I’m one of Mark’s biggest fans, but come on…(eyeroll).

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 12:25 am ¶
SGfan wrote:

C,

Thanks for clearing that up. I was not trying to attack Doug, nor will I attack you. I understand exactly where you are coming from. It just seemed to me that Doug is always quick to cite pieces that seem to uplift or validate the homosexual lifestyle and he often rejects anything that is to the contrary as (and I quote), “a telling indictment of the Christian press that it is virtually incapable of writing meaningfully about these sorts of stories.” You see, he never provides context by citing a story that is opposite to the pro-homosexual one to give any balance. That is the reason I brought up Dennis Jernigan and his website: http://www.dennisjernigan.com/

I think Ray Bolz has written some incredible songs, and evern though he is flawed, the message in the songs is not. The same goes for Kirk Talley and anyone else that is living in sin. I find it amazing that God can use people inspite of themselves to touch and change others lives. Yet, that does not excuse the sin. All of us are guilty of sin, but it is when we choose to live in that sin instead of trusting God and allowing Him to live through us and bring us above or out of that sin. Again, we all have a predisposition to sin (the flesh), but we are called to live by the spirit and not of the flesh. All I am asking is that if Doug is going to continue to start these conversations, then bring some balance to the table. He is after all the “moderator”. He may not agree with what I have said, and that is fine. Everyone has the right to be wrong if they want to.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 12:25 am ¶
Angie M wrote:

#9: You would really toss the CD? If you toss the CD’s of all who have sinned or done something you disagree with, your CD collection will grow rather nonexistent. It’s a shame that you would get rid of music that must have ministered to you once for this reason.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 12:28 am ¶
Dexter wrote:

All hail Brett…most holy and high! Gimme’ a break! I too am single and 35…I really enjoy my solitude….sure….marriage has entered my mind…in fact I even picked out an engagement ring one time…but the relationship fell through…I think the thing that scares me is that divorce runs straight down the line on both sides of my family…I have see so much misery in my life come out of marriage that I think I’m scared of it….all in God’s time though…I may be married by next month…I may be 70….I may never do it…but right now…I love my space….to a full degree of selfishness!! MY house…MY couch…MY remote…. MINE MINE MINE!!! LOL (At least I can admit it huh?)

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 2:20 am ¶
Rick wrote:

I pray for Ray to have protection from the stones that will be thrown by the self-righteous religious. Did not our Savior warn against this? BTW, there is a difference between those who believe homosexuality is sin, and yet have compassion for the gay person; and those who are ready to destroy someone from their lofty thrones of moral superiority. Both types are well-represented on this board.
I said I wasn’t coming back here; but I just had to respond. Thanks.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 5:49 am ¶
pk wrote:

#32..perhaps you should listen one more time to the song “Thrown Away” on Ray’s Allegiance CD. Before you throw Ray away.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 7:19 am ¶
irishlad wrote:

I can’t see anywhere in the Bible where Jesus involved himself in gaybashing. No,but,some posters to this site revel in it .Seems when a particular sin is personally abhorrent to them it takes precedence over more mundane sins like lying,getting drunk,gluttony etc some or all of which carry the same death sentence.The next time some of you Bible literists tell even the smallest of white lies or inwardly salivatate after a pair of sexy legs stop and think.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 8:42 am ¶
BUICK wrote:

Some people seem to be missing the point. RB has “come out”. That means he is not merely acknowledging his same-sex attraction but his same-sex lifestyle of choice.

That would be the same as if I “came out” and announced that I have been attracted to women other than my wife and that I have now decided to pursue those attractions and have sexual relations with people other than my wife.

I’m pretty tired of the “army that shoots its wounded” line. That is over 50 years old and we can surely come up with something a bit fresher than that. But to continue the military analogy, this is like RB waving the white flag of surrender and giving in to the enemy. That is nothing but sad. Very sad.

I would felt exactly the same when Michael English was exposed as an adulterer. I would feel the same if some high-profile Christian artist were to “come out” and say that he was tired of resisting the temptation to drunkenness or lying or lust or gossip or hatred or any other sin and he was now going to give in and simply indulge.

The fact that RB has been tempted to homosexual sin is not the issue. The fact that he has announced publicly that he has chosen to leave his wife and family and live a homosexual lifestyle, is the issue.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 9:08 am ¶
Mark Crary wrote:

Buick no.41 You are dead on!!! Someone finally gets it. . . . Amen

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 9:20 am ¶
RobinAshley wrote:

Buick (41)…I completely agree with you. I think we’ve all gotten a little off-topic, haha.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 10:02 am ¶
AG wrote:

Well said Buick!

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 11:16 am ¶
Brett wrote:

Wow the attacks. Cool, do you really think that if I listen to his music, that I won’t be reminded he’s gay? I think it would hinder my walk with the Lord, because I dont need to be reminded of his living in sin. So for me it’s tainted. If he would say I am struggling with this sin I need prayer but he is choosing to stay in sin and my Bible tells me from such people turn away from. Sorry you want to make the narrow road to heave so wide, but in the end it seems right to man but in the end leads to hell.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 11:28 am ¶
Brett wrote:

Dexter, I am high and mighty, my Savior Jesus paid the price for my sin and I am equal with God’s Son because of what He did for me.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 11:31 am ¶
Brett wrote:

Dexter, wow you are selfish.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 11:33 am ¶
Gospel Has Been wrote:

I really don’t understand it. We love these people, Ray, Kirk, and others while they are enjoying sucess and we see what they want us to see, but then when something like this comes along we no longer want to listen to their songs and we want to spread the word about this person as quickly as we can disquising it as a PRAYER REQUEST when all it is is gossip that we can’t wait to share. Now the part I don’t understand is why we don’t like these people anymore? They are the same people we’ve loved but now we find out a little more about them but they are the SAME people.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 11:35 am ¶
Snowy wrote:

THE ANCHOR HOLDS…IN SPITE OF THE STORM

I have journeyed
Through the long, dark night
Out on the open sea
By faith alone
Sight unknown
And yet His eyes were watching me
CHORUS:
The anchor holds
Though the ship is battered
The anchor holds
Though the sails are torn
I have fallen on my knees
As I faced the raging seas
The anchor holds
In spite of the storm
Ive had visions
Ive had dreams
Ive even held them in my hand
But I never knew
They would slip right through
Like they were only grains of sand

I have been young
But I am older now
And there has been beauty
That these eyes have seen
But it was in the night
Through the storms of my life
Oh, thats where God proved
His love to me

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 11:46 am ¶
Joe wrote:

Buick has written one of the best posts (#41) I have seen on this board. And, he is exactly right. RB has made a private choice to live a life of blatant sin, then has also chosen to go puclic with it.

Furthermore, to follow what Brett has written, Scripture enjoins us, as he so accurately wrote, to “turn away” from people who publicly choose to lead lives of sin. In fact, these sins are such that Scripture commands that these people be excommunicated from local churches, and that the others remaining have no fellowship with them (1 Cor. 5).

Yes folks- it really is THAT serious. When we are asked to recover another taken by a “fault” (Gal. 6:1), that word is not used of these serious sins. Today’s worldly pattern of inclusion therapy goes against this big time; but it is also going against what God’s Word states, even if is not often being done.

Rick said we should pray that RB would be protected by the stones thrown by the self-righteous. We need to pray for him in a much more serious way.

We need to pray that he himself is not one of those people mentioned as hopelessly standing outside the locked door of Heaven, having claimed the Lord’s Name, and having done great things (written great songs) IN that same Name (Matt.7:21-23). In spite of some great songs, RB may actually have shown his true colors as one of these very people.

If so, how terribly sad.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 12:53 pm ¶
gc wrote:

I agree that “Buick” had a great post. So what do we call the gay artist who have not publicly ran out of the closet?

The one thing that I appreciated about Kirk T’s situation is he admitted he was struggling..He could have lied and said he was saved from his same sex persona and spoke at every Church in the world on how God changed him.

Still surprised that Ray Boltz is gay. never saw that one coming…I am also surprised that the original source all but outed Mark Lowry …

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 3:16 pm ¶
Brett wrote:

Here is the verse I use, Test all things; hold fast what is good. 1st Thess. 5:21 His music is now non meaningful to me because Ray is living in darkness. It doesn’t matter how well a song is written. Ray mocks the Power of God with the lifestyle he has chosen. Jesus paid an unbelievable price and Ray is not living for Christ in Spirit & Truth. These are not my word’s they are God’s.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 9:06 pm ¶
SGfan wrote:

#52 Brett,

I understand your position and dissappointment. But, I think you need to look at that verse a little more carefully. If you are testing Ray Bolz, the man, then of course he is going to fail. I am sure that you have probably failed to live up to the picture of God’s grace in your own life, as have we all. Ray has made a very bad decision, I agree. He has chosen to not allow God to be God in his life and has chosen his sin as his identity and I will not defend that. But that does not change the message in the songs. What you need to do is test the message in those songs. Does the message in those songs stand up to the test of scripture? If it does, then there is no need to throw that away. I would not go out and buy future CD’s, but what good is it going to do to destroy the CD’s you have already bought if the message on those CD’s is sound?

I know it is easy to get angry when people like Ray Bolz and Kirk Talley turn out to not be who we thought they were. The last thing people like them need is someone throwing stones and condeming them to Hell. Their sin is doing enough of that. They need people that will show them the love of God and be examples of that work transforming them and picking them up out of their own sins. Jesus met sinners where they were and still today meets us (sinners) where we are. The point is, He has a way of changing us and transforming us into a reflection of His image and that is what people who struggle with the homosexual issue need most. They have an identity crisis. They need to be surrounded by examples of this transformation, they need prayer that breaks the strongholds those sins have in their lives, and they need a personal experiece with the Holy Spirit that redefines within themselves who they are so that the sin no longer is the definition of the person, but the definition becomes the work of grace in their lives. Lastly, they need people that say, I am still walking on the journey also and while my sin may not be the same as yours, I am still just as guilty of sin and together as a family in Christ, we will strive to become who God wants us to be and not who our sin says we are. That is how you overcome sin. That is how you help others to overcome sin. No one’s wounds ever get well by being beaten.

Posted 14 Sep 2008 at 10:40 pm ¶
irishlad wrote:

I find it very hard to imagine Jesus in the company of drinkers,streetwalkers and other marginalized folk walking out when a gay person joined them. No doubt Paul would have done so, as he would instruct you to do,based on Leviticus and other OT scriptures. But Jesus? I seriously doubt it.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 3:15 am ¶
Derek wrote:

Maybe we need to start a SG version of “Cheaters” so we can all find out who these people are! I’d like to know…but I’d like to see some proof! Numbers 32:23 plainly says “be sure your sin will find you out.” ‘Nuff said!

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 8:28 am ¶
Jake wrote:

# 54 Irishlad — I don’t usualy agree with you, but this time I think you are partly right. I don’t think Jesus would have “walked out” either. He spent time hanging out with publicans and sinners — BUT it is important to know that it was never out of acceptance of their sins or lifestyles, but His love reaching out to them to change them. He hung out with Zacchaues to change him. He called Matthew to change him. He forgave the woman caught in adultery to change her. And the list goes on and on.

I used to enjoy listening to Ray Boltz. His music hasn’t really done anything for me in the past few years, but that is due to my musical tastes changing, not his music. I am shocked and grieved at the direction he has chosen to go with his life. I don’t believe God has forsaken him, but I also don’t believe God “accepts” and “understands” his wrong choices. If Jesus was still physically present here on earth I am sure He would spend time with Ray — to draw him back out of the sinful lifestyle he has gone into. And, as ambassadors of Jesus Christ, that should be our motive and goal as well. Not to write Ray Boltz off as “hellbound” or a “wicked pervert” to avoid, but to pray for him (most of us have no way to directly reach out to him) in the hope that he will see the error of his ways and return to being the man God wants him to be.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 8:31 am ¶
BaritoneBob wrote:

# 41 Buick, Great Post! Well said!

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 9:55 am ¶
Joe wrote:

Jake and Irishlad-

I might agree with you, that Jesus might not have walked out on a man who was having sex with another man. But, there are 2 huge reasons why He is to be viewed differently than you or I, and vice-versa.

First of all, only He could truly forgive them, and save their souls in so doing. Only He could say “go, and sin no more”, and mean it.

And secondly, as God, He was impervious to sin. He did no sin. He knew no sin. In Him there was no sin. He was Holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners.

We are incapable of both of the above. And this is why the Scriptures enjoins us, as failing humans, susceptible to even sins as heinous as these, to remove ourselves from the presence of these folks. You can’t ignore Scripture. And this is what Scripture says we should do.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 10:13 am ¶
irishlad wrote:

Jake#56,careful,or the can of worms which is once saved always saved verses saved-sin-lost brigade could easily be opened up.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 11:03 am ¶
irishlad wrote:

#59 should have read versus.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 11:12 am ¶
pastsupporterofsg wrote:

I have never been to NQC, and from all that I read, I never want to go. It sounds like it is just a meeting ground for gays, lesbians, and married and single people just looking for someone to sleep with. But in saying that, if that were true would God bless that event year after year? But I think I’ll stay home and keep my family there too. At least I know what we do in our own home.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 11:42 am ¶
UKCatsfan wrote:

First of all, I’ve read this blog for over two years, never posted but always enjoyed the discussions. But, I feel obligated to post on this thread.

I am a huge fan of gospel music, was brought up listening to all of the old Gospel groups, The Cathedrals, The Blackwoods, The Nelons, The Goodmans, The Oak Ridge Boys (both Gospel and Country), etc. Eventually, I graduated college and starting working in the field doing studio work in Nashville, some promotional stuff, and a few other things. I had the honor of meeting and working with some of the biggest names in Gospel Music. Bill Gaither said it bestw when he quoted Hovie Lister from an interview: the interview asked Hovie if he was in the ministry or if he was in show business. Hovie answered, “yes and yes, next question.” When a group makes it big, ie going mainstream, an unavoidable side effect is loosing the straight ministry feel and it taking on more a business perpsective. That, I don’t believe, dilutes any of the message in the music.

Now, gospel music is probably the worst when i comes to perpetuating rumors about the performers. Whether it be drinking, smoking, cheating, cussing, being gay, etc. I know A LOT of gospel singers, most are upright, faithful individuals who are FLAWED. Does that make them any less of a person, of course not. We just tend to put people on a pedestal and it’s unfair to the performers. There’s absolutely no way they could live up the expecatations we, as fans, have for them. The only expectations they have to live up are the ones they believe God has for them.

I’m single and thouroughly enjoy the single life. I know that I’ll probably never marry for two reasons. I firmly beleive some people aren’t cut our for marriage. Marriage is hard work, lots of sacrificing and I’m just not that type of person. The other reason is that it’s illegal. That’s right folks, I’m gay, string me up! HAHA, sorry couldn’t resist. Do I think it’s a sin, no. Do I care what you all think of me, have to say no to that too. One of God’s greatest gifts is our intellect. Read the Bible in the context in which it was written. The Bible, in the new testament, condones slavery. Does that make it right, of course not. The Bible has been used for centuries to persecute people who were on the margins of society. First women, then blacks, now gays. I don’t really care because the most important aspect of my life is my personal relationship with Jesus Christ, not that I’m gay, not what other people think of me. And believe it or not folks, I DO have a deep faith and practice it every day. I commend Ray Boltz on his decision. I can state from experience it wasn’t an easy one for him to make. There is a comandment against lying, which is what we all do (as gay people) when we pretend to be straight. As far as I know, Moses didn’t chisel “Thou shall not be gay” into those tablets. Jesus never one time mentioned it. In fact, in all the bible, there are 6 verses that even address the subject. There are dozens more that address lying, adultry, hipocrisy, divorce even, Jesus hated divorce. Of course we don’t think someone is going to hell because of divorce. That’s because times have changed. Do I think divorce is right, no . But sometimes it’s inevitible. Should a woman stay with a man that is beating her? Of course not. Do we still think that when a man dies, his widow is supposed to marry her deceased husband’s brother? No, that’s because in the society that passage was written, that’s what was expected. You don’t have to agree with Ray Boltz’s life, but, the fact that he’s gay doent’ make him a horrible person, or any less of a blessing through his music.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 11:52 am ¶
SGfan wrote:

# 58 Joe

I think you are partially right. I agree that Jesus is the only one that can forgive sins. He is the one who paid the price. The problem is in your second assertation that He was impervious to sin. You see, when he took on the flesh, He was tempted just like we are. The difference is, He did not fall to the temptation. He had to do that, so that when He went holy and blameless to the cross, He could take on our sins. He carried our sins to the cross. Scripture does call us to be seperate from those that commit such heinous sins, but I suspect the context is a little different than you think. You can’t take one chapter out of the Bible and base a theology on it. Over and over, the Bible talks about loving people and over and over it talks about hating sin. A person committing such sins can not have an active role in the church. That would be wrong. They do however, need the church more than ever to be a reflection or image of God and His ability to transform lives. After all, it is in His image that we are created. Bottom line - God hates sin, but God loves people. As a people created in his image and as a people being transformed by the work of grace to reflect that image more closely, we have to do the same. We have to hate the sin, but love the sinner.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 12:19 pm ¶
sgused2b wrote:

dear Brett.
I don’t care if you throw out Boltz Cd’s or not…..but your rationing isn’t quite rationale……..
Anyone remember the great songwriter Dawn Thomas…..”I Am Not Ashamed of the Gospel”–lesbian–but wrote probably the greatest evangelist song ever along with countless others you would recognize! Even the melody for Amazing Grace was discovered in a brothel. I am not saying schedule Boltz for your next Gospel Revival but the truth in a song if founded on the Eternal Word of God, will stand and accomplish what God intends. Having formerly worked in SG publishing/writing, I would hate to dump on your favorite song parade, or song-writer, you might have to trash your whole collection! And please quote scripture in context!

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 12:38 pm ¶
sgused2b wrote:

Dear Joe.
Matt 7: 21-33 “in context is written to the Jew who has rejected Christ” In fact, the book of Matthew if you would notice on the index to where it says “To whom written”..it tells us to the Jew. Now of course all scripture is for our good and written from 3 vantage points, historically, doctrinally, and spiritually (practically). But one must be careful to apply doctrine that was meant for the Jews to the Church (us saved by grace). Now there is another scripture in Rev. to back up your illustration, those found at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 12:45 pm ¶
Disappointed wrote:

I’ve never posted a comment on any blog so I had to come up with a name. Disappointed says it all for me. I am saddened when an individual professes to be a child of God, uses talents given by God to mislead and once they reach a pinnacle of success, “come out of the closet” whether it be announcing they are gay or have committed adultery, whatever the sin may be. While we should not cast stones, it’s hard to turn a deaf ear to what is going in not only Gospel music, but also in many forms of ministry on small and large scales. Our society has become so complacent to sin! God Bless America I pray!!

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 1:23 pm ¶
JM wrote:

For those who have yet to read the entire article in the Washington Blade, I would encourage you to do so by clicking on the link in Doug’s initial post. That being said, there is a specific element of this discussion that I find most disturbing. It is the juncture where RB embraces his sin, rather than rejects it. His rationale is that God made him this way; therefore, his gay tendencies cannot be wrong or sinful. This is an amazing glitch in RB’s sense of God’s design. The perverse logic would go something like this: I love God and God loves me. I was created in God’s image and likeness, so all that is within me is of God. Though some impulses, tendencies and desires are against God’s word, he put those impulses in me; therefore, whatever these impulses are and however I wish to express them is in keeping with God’s design and purpose. Therefore, despite my Gay lifestyle choice, I am a Christian.

Time and time again, Christians have been sidetracked by ego and self-conceit. Only God is the measure of all things, not man. Sin is not determined by the whim of man or the desire of the moment. Rather, God’s Word explicitly details the width and breadth of man’s sinful exploits. And while I join with many of you in praying that God will send the convicting power of the Holy Spirit to minister to RB, homosexuality is sin. It is not a lifestyle, alternate way of living or being sexuality unfeddered. It is simply sin. And by the way, should all SGM artists and their families, friends and neighbors be gay or adulterous, sin is still sin. Look it up in the Book!

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 2:09 pm ¶
SGfan wrote:

#62 UKCatsfan

All I can say is I’ll pray for you. You are one of those people that have decided to let a sin define who you are instead of letting God define you. You said the Bible only has 6 verses that address the issue. Yet, the subject as a whole is sexual immorality and the Bible is very clear on that subject. You see, you can’t pick and choose which areas in your life you will allow God to be God of. It’s either all or nothing. By trying to live in a duality, you are trying to pick and choose. Finally, when the Bible calls your particular sin detestable (1 Kings 14:24) it means just that. There is no such thing as historical context when it comes to sin. God is the same yeseterday, today, and forever. Homosexuality was wrong then, its wrong now, and will forever be sin. Homosexuality does not equate to being black or a woman as you tried to draw a parallel. People have in the past used the Bible out of context to defend many horrible things including slavery. However, you are trying to draw a parallel that simply is not there. The Bible never calls being Black or being a woman a sin. It does however refer to homosexuality as a sin. Finally, you brought up the issue of lying saying , “There is a comandment against lying, which is what we all do (as gay people) when we pretend to be straight.” You are right in that you should not live a lie, but by choosing to live the homosexual lifestyle you are in fact living a lie. You are not living as God created you but as your sin defines you. Sin is not an easy thing for any of us to handle, but if it were would any of us grow? We all are predisposed to sin, but again we have to choose to be conformed to God’s image in order to live above that predisposition. Homosexuality just does not fit and has no place in that image.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 2:18 pm ¶
Joe wrote:

SGfan #63-

I’m sorry, my friend- but you are wrong. 1 Cor. 5 gives explicit commands to “put away from among you the wicked person”, and have no fellowship with them. Don’t even eat a meal with them. This is to maintain the sanctity of God’s assembly. Not my words. The Lord’s.

And if you are suggesting that Jesus COULD have sinned, but never did, you are wrong again. He was blameless, without spot (outward) or blemish (inward). In John 14:30, He tells His disciples “…the prince of this world (Satan) comes, and he has nothing in me.” You might have read right over this, and missed what He is saying. It literally means that there was NOTHING in Him (ie: no sinful nature) that could even possibly respond to the temptations of the evil one.

James reinforces this, when in chap. 1, he states “God cannot be tempted by evil”. Jesus was/is God, and as such, could not be tempted by evil. There was no sinful nature in Him.

There are multiple Scriptures which would advise us to stay far away from a brother or sister proudly living in such open and blatant sin.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 2:22 pm ¶
brad wrote:

i have always loves Ray Boltz. Have sang his songs for years. It hurt to read that article. I pray he allow God to work in his life but hes headed the wrong way.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 3:02 pm ¶
cdguy wrote:

I’m SOOOOOO grateful for the promise that God’s Word would “not return void”. So whether a song, book, story, (whatever) was written by an audulterer, homosexual, liar, thief, whatever (Paul says we “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”), or if the song was sung by a sinner, it can still be used of God to bless our spirits or teach us some truth.

I we’re going to throw out RB’s recordings, we may as well throw out every cd and book we own, since they ALL come from fallible humans. Only the Bible would remain.

I don’t think God would have us throw the baby out with the bath water.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 3:33 pm ¶
cdguy wrote:

OOPS! First word of second paragraph should have been “If”.

Sorry.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 3:35 pm ¶
sgused2b wrote:

UkCatsFAN, I hate that you are go mis-guided. Living in unconfessed sin is a very serious situation. If ANY Child of God lives in such a way, with sin that is unconfessed and unrepentant, the scripture says in Psalms that “if I regard iniguity in my heart, He (God) cannot hear me” meaning He doesn’t even choose to hear our prayers.

But on the otherhand, Jesus did tell us to be “in the world” just “not of it”. Hard to be light on light, salt on salt. Sadly, alot of Christians and Churches are neither. We must be in it, but not of it! They’ve created their own little safe sub-cultured cocoon, without getting into the sick, lost and dying world and sharing the hope of Jesus Christ.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 3:40 pm ¶
irishlad wrote:

#62.Good on you,you’re a brave man. No one, no matter what scriptures they quote about homosexual behaviour being a sin,can ever to any level of satisfaction,prove to me or anyone else that Ukcatsfan or folk like him were not made that way. The people who wrote those archaic laws had no knowlege of modern medicine including sexuality that we understand today.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 4:23 pm ¶
Inigo Montoya wrote:

#62 UKCatsfan,
Are you saying we should cut Ray slack because he’s gay but “hate” him because he’s divorced? Please clarify.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 4:25 pm ¶
UKCatsfan wrote:

#68, Sgfan

You’re exactly right on nearly everyone of your points. The Bible does not say that it is a sin to be black, or to be a woman. Why then are women subjectated in the ministry? Why then are churches still basically segregated? You are exactly right when you say we shouldn’t pick and choose what verses to follow, cafetria christians so to speak. In the new testament, Jesus says to take ALL you have and give to the poor. Have you emptied your bank account out? Do you give your entire paycheck to a ministry? And, I do covet your prayers, but not for my homosexuality. I covet prayers for my ability to understand people and TRY to convey to them that, in the very simplest of terms, we’re not living in 40 AD. But, the most important point I feel you made is this: and i quote you, “God is the same yesterday and today” That He is my friend. However, today we don’t still think it’s a sin to eat a schrimp or for a man to shave. At least I don’t, and I highly doubt you do either.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 4:33 pm ¶
Harry Peters wrote:

#62 UKCatsFan, Old Harry Peters is proud of you and you have represented yourself well. It is unfortunate that the Gospel has been used as a weapon so often throughout history. I worshipped in the Episcopal Church on Sunday and the New Testatment Reading and Scripture was about the Master who forgave the slave his debt of 10,000 denari and then the slave went out and had a guy that owed him 100 denari thrown in jail. These homophobic, religious zealots could learn a lot from that scripture, or the Lord’s Prayer, for that matter. “Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.” I don’t believe for one minute that being gay is a choice. Most of the gay people that I know are far brighter than average and I don’t believe a bright person would choose a sexual orientation that society is so hard on. Harry Peters is happy to embrace you as a brother. There is plenty of room in the family and it is big enough for all of us.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 4:59 pm ¶
UKCatsfan wrote:

#75, Of course you shouldn’t hate Ray Boltz because he’s divorced, or because he’s gay. The point I was trying to make was actually made by Sgfan, we can’t pick and choose what “sins” we think are sins and aren’t. The Bible clearly reads that the only reason for divorce is adultry, and other reason is sin. I attended a First Baptist Church for many years. Probably well over 40 percent of the congreation were in their second marriages, some in their third. Two deacons ex-wives attended the same church! Nothing was ever said of this “sin.” Times change, laws change, societal norms change. That’s what I was trying to get across, evidently with no success. To sum it all up, we need to be more vigilant in deliniating what the Bible “says” and what the Bible “reads.”

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 6:02 pm ¶
irishlad wrote:

#69 1cor.5 were not the Lord’s words but Paul’s, an ordinary sinful man just like you or me with a big thorn in his flesh(could’ve been a closet gay for all we know)to boot,just a very clever guy who had everyone below his intelligence blinded by theological science. He even had you thinking his words were God’s.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 6:04 pm ¶
UKCatsfan wrote:

One more thing, divorce happens. It’s awful but sometimes marriages just aren’t meant to be. And, personally, I feel that the ramapant rate of divorce makes far worse a mockery of marriage than gay marriage would. Of course, that’s just my ever so humble opinion.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 6:05 pm ¶
Joe wrote:

To JM and UKCats fan-

I am so sorry, but there is no such thing as being a “gay” Christian. If you feel that there are only 6 verses in Scripture that apply to this sin, then you haven’t read your Bibles.

The entire last half of Romans 1 deals with this sin. In fact, Paul describes AIDS 1900 years before it was first diagnosed.

Clearly, the cure for this sin is being washed by the blood of Christ. This is what occurred to some in the Corinthian church (1 Cor. 6:11). They HAD been homosexuals- then, they got saved.

Scripture as well clearly states that if anyone is in Christ, they have become a new creation; old things are passed away, and ALL things become new.

As SGfan said so clearly- to be publicly identified with this choice of lifestyle, is simply stating that you are letting a sin define your entire being, rather than being defined by the Lord.

Someone who is publicly stating they are living their lives being directly driven by this sin, and then telling others that they are “Christians”, are doing nothing more than living a lie.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 6:08 pm ¶
Joe wrote:

Irishlad;

What Paul wrote WERE the commandments of the Lord. He said so himself; probably anticipating the arguments of skeptics as yourself. See 1 Cor. 14:37.

Please remember three things. Paul saw the Lord with his own eyes. Her heard His voice with his own ears. And he was caught up into Heaven, and then returned. And you and I have done none of those 3 things.

Pick and choose away the verses you don’t agree with, and all you end up with is the Irishlad Obliterated Version.

ALL Scripture is given by the inspiration of God….

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 6:14 pm ¶
UKCatsfan wrote:

Ok, a couple of rebuttals. Firt to Irishlad in #79. I know well Paul’s words and, trust me, I can distinguish Paul’s words from the Words of Christ. Christ’s words were never so filled with hate and bigotry as Paul’s. But you hit on an interesting point, many prominent theologians believe Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” was that he was in fact gay. Why else would he hate women so much? HAHA, sorry, that was my attempt at humor. Trust me, I am NOT below Paul’s intelligence nor am I “thinking his words are God’s.”

Now, Joe’s #81 post. Allow me to make an assumption, you are a Biblical Literalist I would wager to guess. If that’s the case, there is no way we are ever going to come to an agreement because I am, in no way, a literalist. However, I do want to address a couple of things you said. My being gay in no way defines who I am, no more than being not gay defines yours. My being gay is just a small part of me. Or, if you do equate being gay with sin, it would be like defining a person by any sin they commit, saying a curse word for example. It would be like walking up saying, Hey, I’m John and I’m a cusser.” I do not volunteer the information to most people that I’m gay, however, if they ask, I tell them because I DO think lying is a sin. Also, did you know that there is absolutely no word for Homosexuality in the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramic texts in which the Bible was originally writtend. That was added when King James ordered his first translation. And, as we all know, King James was a notorious male chauvinist and bigot.

And, for the record, I take offense in your saying it’s impossible to be a gay christian. You do not know me or my heart sir. Leave that call to someone a little more qualified than yourself.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 6:31 pm ¶
SGfan wrote:

#69 Joe,

Maybe you need to re-read what I wrote. I never said Jesus could have sinned, but that He was tempted by sin in the same way we are, and He had to be. Might I suggest you read Matthew 4 again. The fact is He had to live a sinless life in order to make Him the worthy sacrifice, but He also had to take on the full robe of humanity. That was the only way He could take our sins to the cross. I am very aware of what 1 Cor. 5 says. But in context, the letter was written to the church at Corinth. The letter suggest that these actions may have been happening amognst those in leadership at the church. You see you can take just one passage and try to back up anything, but you have to weigh everything together. Let’s use the passage from 1 Cor. 5:11 as a example. That verse says, “But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.” You see, if you take that verse alone, then all of us should be cast out of the church. Greed and selfishness is the root of any sin you can point to. I do not condone RB’s actions nor do I condone the sin that our dear friend UKCatsfan is living in. I do recognize that their sin, as is all of ours, is based in a selfishness or greed in trying to displace God as God.

#75 UKCatsfan
You are again taking a verse out of context when you cite Jesus’s instructions to the rich young ruler, but let me answer you this way. God is God of every aspect of my life including my finances. So anything that is in my bank account is because God allowed it to be there. I am not praying for your homosexuality, as you suggest. I am praying that you will have a revelation from God that reveals who he sees when he looks at you. Again, homosexuality is a sin. I am not praying for your sin, but against it and the stronghold it has in your life. By the way, the eating shrimp thing, here is the answer to that subject. Read Romans 14 and Acts 11. I believe you will find that helpful.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 6:36 pm ¶
UKCatsfan wrote:

HAHA, you’re good Sgfan. I bet we could have some great debates. I’m very familiar with Romans 14 and Acts 11. I was just using the old Levitical codes as a point of jest. Again a failed attempt at humor. I may be gay, but not very funny I guess.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 6:44 pm ¶
Brett wrote:

The men of the city looked on with lust when the angles visited Lot , and the Bible said it was wrong. Yes, I say throw out Boltz cd because he is choosing to stay gay and live in that liestyle. If he repents and turns away then it is accepting to listen to his music. CD what does this have to do with SG who serve God truthfully and are saved. Give me a break with we shouls throw all cd’s away. Only those we know willingly particpate in sin and will not change, God says to turn away. Sorry that you all want to play middle of the road. God wants you prefers you to be hot, not cold or lukewarm. Maybe some of you need to re-examine whether or not you are in the Truth!

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 6:45 pm ¶
Brett wrote:

Sorry some of my keys stuck together as I typed my message but you get the gist of what I am saying.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 6:46 pm ¶
Brett wrote:

Our CCM, now has banned playing Boltz, goes right in line with that Jeff & Sherri Easter song, what you reap is what you sow.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 7:03 pm ¶
Joe wrote:

OK, UKCatsfan-

Let’s look at this honestly.

You are totally wrong when you say that there is no such word for homosexuality in the original languages of Scripture. In fact, it is in all of them. Manuscripts that predate King James by well over a thousand years have this word in all of them. The same word is used to describe this sin as is used to describe bestiality, by the way- an abomination.

If bestiality is unnatural, so is homosexuality. Sex was created by God. For procreation. How many offspring have homosexuals produced (without the help of AI?) Where would the human race be if this was the “natural” way to do things?

There is absolutely no doubt that this sin has caused the spread of a fatal STD unknown until the 1970’s. How is this natural?

Ezekiel lists the sins of Sodom, for which it was annihilated. We may assume that homosexuality was #1 on the list. We would assume wrongly. The first sin mentioned in connection with the abominations of Sodom, was PRIDE. Any wonder why this is the singular human emotion affixed to the homosexual movement? “Gay pride” has almost become a single-word phrase. Please look up Ezekiel 16:48-49. The abomination of homosexuality is mentioned last. Pride before God is mentioned first.

What the apostle Paul wrote were the commandments of the Lord. It is stated this in 1 Cor. 14:37. You may accept this. If you do not, then read verse 38. Please also read Romans 1. In man’s willful walk away from God, lifting the creature above the Creator, Paul accurately states that homosexuality is the pinnacle of this sinful progression.

You may be offended as you wish in my saying that you cannot be a gay Christian. I didn’t say it. The word of God says it.

1 Cor. 6:11- “…abusers of themselves with mankind…shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Rev. 22:27- “and there shall in no wise enter into it (Heaven) anything that defiles, nor works an abomination…”

1 John 5:18- “We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning…”

These are 3 verses only. I can find dozens more. Your problem, my friend, is not with me. It is with the Lord Himself.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 7:52 pm ¶
SGfan wrote:

#85 UKCatsfan

Thanks for the props. A debate would be fun, although I fear you would be outmatched, LOL!!!! I understand what you were trying to do with the Levitical codes, but even they have to be looked at in the context of scripture as a whole. In the end, this subject brings out the best and worst in people. Some would just count you as loss and move forward. I have seen too many people that have been delivered from homosexuality and have become great assetts to the kingdom of God. My prayer is that the same will happen in your life. Even if that is not what you want, I believe that is what God wants. You can run, and you do have the free will to choose. God does not force His will on anyone.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 10:00 pm ¶
Wade wrote:

UKcatsfan… God Bless You!!! Even God Bless dr joe… But UKcatsfan…don’t waste your time with the Doc. He likes bulling gay ppl. I wished he would be so judgmental on ALL THE OTHER SINS IN THE BIBLE.

He still has not answered Oh Harry Peters question. I love it when Bible Bullies are confused by the facts.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 10:12 pm ¶
Joe wrote:

Wade- We’re not talking about all the sins in the Bible. We’re (again) talking about homosexuality, because Doug (again) started it.

And I have no idea what you are talking about, me not answering Harry’s question. In the last 5 threads, Harry has not asked me any questions.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 11:09 pm ¶
Woody wrote:

I have loved Ray Boltz for a long time and will continue to love him. In fact, because I love him, I pray that God will not give him a moment’s rest until he repents and turns back to Him. Those of us who care do not want to see him lost for eternity because he has embraced what God calls sin. I trust that God will not turn him over to his false sense of peace while living in sin.

Along with others, I will continue to battle my own grievous sins. May there never come a day when I embrace and excuse them in the name of “honesty” but may we all continue to battle the prince of darkness and his lies.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 11:18 pm ¶
Wade wrote:

dr joe… Avery Made Me Do it Huh??? Think we covered that too!!! LoL:-))

But Dh doesn’t make you a judgmental turgid mule.

I will let Harry Peters restate his question.

But it’s pretty funny that you seem to find everything else you are an expert on.

Harry… although you chided him and I have now 3 times please restate your question. Maybe it will take dr joe away from bullying, bashing & judging the gay ppl for a while.

Posted 15 Sep 2008 at 11:58 pm ¶
SGfan wrote:

Just got through reading Doug’s update. Still shows how fundamentally wrong he is on this debate as well. He tries to draw parallels as many in the homosexual community do between their struggle for acceptance and the past issues of slavery and women’s rights. These don’t even begin to equate. Doug, some truths just stand the test of time and those are the truths of scripture. Instead of backing a flawed philosophy while trying to portray yourself as a Christian, how about try learning what that title represents? Learn what THE WORD has to say on the subject. In the end truth always wins.

Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 12:02 am ¶
SGFAN65 wrote:

UKCatsfan - I wish I could have “come out” in this blog as effectively as you have done. I can only say that I, too, am a Gay Christian - and yes - I believe with all of my heart that Gay Men and Women can be Christians. There are too many of us doing so many great things for the cause of Christ. God is Love and Loves us ALL.

Harry Peters - All Chrisitans - or so called christians that post here - should have your attitude of Love and Compassion. Your response in post #77 brought tears to my eyes. If everyone could have the understanding that you seem to have that being Gay is NOT a choice, what a much more pleasant world we would have to live in.

Why would we choose to be unaccepted and condemned by the church and it’s people ? You can never know how I feel inside as a Gay Man until you’ve walked in my shoes and experienced my life as I have. I would have NEVER NEVER NEVER chose to be gay. It’s who and what I am. It’s only a small part of who I am - but it’s still a part of me. I, like countless millions of others, believe without a shadow of a doubt that I was born gay.

I don’t worry about trying to satify holier than thou christians. I am working to make God the Father pleased with me.
Judgements against people like me - are very hurtful and far worse than you can ever imagine.

After many years in the SG business - I chose to be open and honest about my orientation. That was the only choice I made - and because of that choice, I am no longer “welcome” to minister and sing as I once did. That is why so many of the gay men and women in SG music remained closeted - because the fear of losing an opportunity to fulfill their calling outweighs being true to the world around them.

Judge not - lest ye be judged - speaks volumes of God’s intentions for us. Why can’t we adhere to that - rather than casting the stones as is being done here ?

God is Love - and no respector of persons. There’s not any conditions on HIS love and for Whom he Loves.

Some of the biggest and most popular people on stage - in the recording studios - behind the pianos - even driving the buses - are gay - and giving their lives for the Cause of Christ. Unfortunately the judgemental rationale of so many so called christians - prevent them from being open and honest.

The SGM Industry would have to shut down tomorrow if all of the Gay Men and Women had to leave because of their orientation. Wouldn’t that be a sad state of affairs - and no further need for this blog for sure.

Doug - thanks for bringing these type articles to our attention and giving us an open forum to respond.

It’s not a CHOICE - it’s as much a part of our lives’ as the breath we breathe.

Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 12:33 am ¶
UKCatsfan wrote:

Ok, Joe. You have become so offensive that this is the last time that I will respond to anything YOU post. However, since you have attacked me personally and become so offensive and judgemental as to say that I have a problem with God and not you, I can become just as offensive. You really put me in the mind of a person named Ted Haggard. Heard of him? How about the the Shakespeare quote “Me thinks he doeth protest too much?” It staggers me at which the lengths people will go to to use the Bible to support their own ignorances and prejudices. Of all the verses you quoted only one even MARGINALLY deals with homosexuality.

And the fact that you compare me with a person that engages in beastality is appalling. I’m not even going to comment further on that statement.

I suppose you think AIDS is God’s way of punishing homosexuality. You are DEAD WRONG buddy. And I state that unequovically and without hiesitation. Is it a baby’s fault that is born to a mother that was a drug addict that got AIDS from a shared needle? Is it the fault of the 75 year old man that got AIDS from a blood transfusion? Is it the wife’s fault that contracted HIV from her husband who, because he’s living a lie, contracted it from a seedy one night stand and passed it on to her? That statement is so filled with hate that I won’t even pursue it any further with you.

You mentioned Gay Pride. You’re darn right I’m proud of who I am. Not proud because I’m gay (although I’m in no way ashamed of it). But proud because I’m honest, forthright, and confident that I can withstand any onslaught people like you can throw at me. You’re opinion of me or my “lifestyle” matters NONE to me.

So, I will pray for YOU! You obviously have some issues to work through. The fact that you use any verse in the Bible that even vaguely deals with sin and apply it to homosexuality says volumes. So, I will pray that God will open your eyes to see that their are bigger issues to deal with my friend. How about feeing the hungry, sending Bibles overseas, or learning to actually READ the Bible for what it IS, not what you want it to be. You want a real eye-opening experience. Go and volunteer in an AIDS hospice for a few hours. I guarantee you’ll never feel more humbled in your life.

Oh, and Sgfan. Thanks for your words. While we obviously don’t agree, you have never once stooped to the hatemongering others have. That shows your character my friend. Oh, and don’t be so sure you would be outmatched. HAHA

And Harry Peters. I appreciate your having my back. Whether your gay or not! HAHA

Wade as well, thanks for your kind words and support.

Oh, and sorry for the delay in this post. I was out living in my abominable lifestyle.

Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 1:41 am ¶
irishlad wrote:

#83 Ouch UkCatsfan,read my post again my comment was not directed toward you.

Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 1:55 am ¶
UKCatsfan wrote:

Oh, mine wasn’t directed at you either irishlad. Sorry if miscommunicated something. No worries.

Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 8:50 am ¶
Harry Peters wrote:

Dr. Joe, You are a good Bible Totin’, scripture quotin’ man with a literalistic view of the Bible. I think I can probably also infer that you believe the Bible to be the inerrent word of God. I have a question for you that people who believe like you do have never been able to answer.

Literalists believe that God created the human race in the garden of eden by creating Adam and Eve. The Bible tells us that Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Abel. With no further explanation, we are told that Cain and Abel had children. So my question is, did they commit incest or are their things that the Bible doesn’t tell us and God created more people than Adam and Eve? If the Bible leaves out something here or there, how can it be literally true and inerrent?

Now don’t get old Harry Peters wrong. The Bible is God’s Word and it is the best account of it that we have. However, throughout the history of the church there have been arguments over what belongs in the Bible and what doesn’t. St. John, almost didn’t make it. The Gospel according to Judith almost did make it. Does it threaten your faith to consider the possiblilty that the Bible is not 100 percent literally true? Afterall, consider the parables, which by definition are not literally true.

Inquiring minds, my good doctor.

Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 8:50 am ¶
Joe wrote:

UKCatsFan-

Not only proud, but angry. I am very sorry if what I have written has upset you. But God annihilated Sodom and Gomorrha for what you are proud and angry about.

Not a single thing I have written is my own personal thoughts or conjectures. I have quoted the Word of God, and you have outright rejected it.

I posted a graphic medical post about AIDS, and the medical truths behind it, but it did not get posted. That’s OK.

What matters most, the final determinant, is what God says. And you have shown us all that you have categorically rejected what God has written.

Once again, your problem is not with me. You may argue with me, attack me, flame out against me…and I am just nothing more than a convenient target.

Your problem is with God. Please don’t waste your time coming up with what you plan to say to me next. Instead, work on what you’re going to say to HIM, as you stand before Him one day, and He asks you why you have stubbornly rejected what He has so carefully documented and written, covering the entire history of mankind. As Romans 1 states so clearly, you will be “without excuse”.

I will pray for you, that the Lord in His gracious mercy will save your soul. I would love to meet you one day in Heaven.

Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 8:55 am ¶
Jim2 wrote:

Harry,
I’ll leave the answer to Joe, but just for a second, consider the ridiculousness of your statement:
“If the Bible leaves out something here or there, how can it be literally true and inerrent? ”
When we consider what God knows, if everything WAS included, we wouldn’t have read what happened past the first week.
You strain too hard at the gnat, my friend. It just kills me that we choose nitpicky arguments like this as a ploy to ignore the truth that is very clearly given

Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 9:28 am ¶
jgurnett wrote:

Casting aside the issue of whether being homosexual is a sin, my question to those homosexuals on this site is this: Does sin enter the equation at all? Is it okay to be homosexual but not enter into homosexual practices? Or, does being a homosexual and believing God created one that way give one the right to explore and live out a homosexual lifestyle?

I’m asking in all seriousness.

Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 11:02 am ¶
Howland Sharpe wrote:

Thought of something this morning. It has always seemed strange to me how abruptly Terry Franklin left the GVB. And now I see he didn’t show up at the recent GVB video taping. Perhaps he knew something about Mark Lowrey that made him steer clear. Don’t know the answer but, judging from his website he seems pretty conservative and probably has a problem with the gay stuff.

Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 11:30 am ¶
SGfan wrote:

UKCatsfan,

Your words-”You’re darn right I’m proud of who I am.” I thought you said earlier that homosexuality does not define you, yet here it does once again. In all honesty, Joe is probably a well meaning person, and his scriptural references are for the most part correct, although some context is missing. There are people that will slam you no matter how you live your life and I do understand that, however that does not excuse us if we live in a life of sin. I could sit here all day long and beat you over the head with the Bible, but that will do you no good. We’ve established that you do not view the Bible the same way I do, so really the only thing I or anyone else can do is to pray for you, show you the love of Christ and allow you to witness the transformation He makes in my life. There are many things in my life that I would have defended before as being a part of who I am that were nothing more than sin and because of that transformative work called grace, they are no longer an issue. My prayers are with you and against those strongholds in your life. I will ask you to do one thing though. Seek God. Not like everyone else says, but whole heartedly and earnestly seek Him. You’ll be suprised the changes that happen in your life over a short time.

SGFAN65 ,

Your right in one thing. You never had one moment where you chose to be gay. But no one ever has one moment where they choose to be an alcoholic, drug addict, porn addict, or even a compulsiv lier. It is sort of a process that happens, but that does not change the fact that each one is a life of sin. You were no more born homosexual than I was born an alcoholic. What you were born with is a predisposition to sin, we all are. I challenge you to do the same thing that I challenged UKCatsfan to do. Seek God. I don’t mean by praying to Him 2 times a day and “asking the blessing” before you eat. Ask God what He wants in your life and seek after Him with reckless abandonment. I feel you’ll be suprised also. You may hear Him say that you were wrong about the homosexuality thing, but I guarantee if you do hear Him say that, you will hear Him say that He is far more than capable to deliver you from that.

Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 11:59 am ¶
AG wrote:

To add to Jim2’s post (#102), In John 21:25 he recorded that if he were to record all of the “many other things which Jesus did…the WORLD itself could not contain the books that should be written”.

The bible contains what we currently need to know.

Posted 16 Sep 2008 at 12:00 pm ¶
Joe wrote:

Harry-

I almost hesitated in answering your question…the inanity of it, interjected into a discussion this serious, seems like a waste of time. As Jim2 has correctly stated, this question is a “strain at gnat and swallow a camel” question. You have asked it, while at the same time, you are slapping on the back every homosexual you know, throwing out huge sections and principles of the Word of God to do so.

God plai