Quote of the day

From Wade:

“planned spontaneity.” onemadeupmind is RIGHT!!!

The VERY FIRST TIME I had JADED thoughts about Gospel Music was as a YOUNG Man of about 10.

My Uncle dated a daughter of a well known GM Player. I lived in Chattanooga, but we would go to Mull’s Singing Conventions in all the markets her was in. Knoxville & Chattanooga for this story.

1 night Thanksgiving in Knox & Friday in Chatt.

Goodman’s on the line up.

They came out without Vestal, After the first song which was some SAD SLOW song Sam told us that Vestal was sick. Had been at the hospital all day, they did not know what was wrong with her. She’d had a HIGH FEVER!! HE HAD SPECIAL PRAYER for HER!!! They sang a couple more songs… then they introduced a song and said that normally Vestal did it but rusty was going to try to sing it.

“…pray for Rusty as he tries to sing GOD WALKS THE DARK HILL…”

Rusty does his best and struggles through the tears of the first verse and chorus.

What do you think happened BOTH DAYS!!!??? 2 nights in a row…

JUST IN TIME to come out from behind the curtain to sing The Second Verse…

Sister Vestal got HEALED!!!


People were screamin’, shouting and yes Irishlad they were running up and down the aisles SPEAKING IN TONGUES & Looking for SNAKES!!! LoL;-)))

[snip]It is much harder than most ppl know to do live performance night after night.


In any kind of performance about the time you get SICK of doing something is about the time you are getting GOOD @ IT!!

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  1. NonSgfan wrote:

    how do you know she DIDNT get healed both nights?

  2. KDM wrote:

    Oh, puh-LEEEZE. When was the last time you read about a Biblical healing where the healed individual woke up sick again the next DAY?!? And what hospital admits someone who suddenly feels all better just in time to run off to a concert performance, then shows up the very next day sick all over again?? Even if she felt 100% better, there’s no way they’d have let her leave again after ‘relapsing’ once already.

    I have to agree with Wade. At best it was ‘planned spontaneity’. At worst, it was down-right lyin’. You just don’t mess with people’s spiritual convictions like that just to make a ‘moment’ in your performance. Very crass.

  3. NonSgfan wrote:

    ……………………….I was being sarcastic.

    My wife is the only person who understands me.

  4. KDM wrote:

    Sorry, NSGF. This is just a topic that burns my toast. You just don’t mess with the Holy Spirit that way. I believe He still heals, and people who prevaricate like this steal blessings away from those who have experienced legitimate healing.

    It’s because of shenanigans like this that, when someone experiences a true healing, everyone immediately assumes they got whacked on the head at some tent revival, and that they probably weren’t sick to begin with. Bad publicity like this makes unbelievers think that God is just a sideshow sham (say that one three times fast!!). How does God get the glory from that?!?

  5. RF wrote:

    It’s show-biz. My father was an amateur quartet member. There was this one group who had this song, “I Told Everybody” and they sang it for the first time at this place where my Dad’s group was. It brought the house down and resulted in several turnarounds. I commented to my father how wonderful and spontaneous it was.

    His response? “Same as Tuesday at First Baptist.” It shocked me, so I wnet along with him to the next venue that group was performing and sure enough, we saw the same act–including the four turnarounds.

    It’s show biz.

  6. Wes wrote:

    Just wanted to say Avery, that If you think it was fake for her to come out 2 night and be healed then thats your opinion. And Yes Healing is still real. It could have been planned but if it was then, they will have to answer to God for it not you. On the other hand You will have to answer to God for the things you do. Bottom line is this,” Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord ” Not Avery is Lord !!! So tonight when you lay down just say to yourself, Is what I’m writing on here worth it ? And if you think it is then I truly believe the scripture where God said he would turn you over to a reprabate mind and believe a lie and be damned. I will honestly be praying for you that you will find peace in your heart and when you do , This website shall be nomore.

  7. KDM wrote:

    I see your point, RF. But there’s a big difference between show business and lying about being healed by the Holy Spirit for the sake of a thrill. I’ve been to many SG concerts where you hear the MC tell the same tired old joke and crack up like it’s the first time he heard it, night after night after night, or do the same concert order in every program. If I hadn’t seen the group twice so close together, I would never have known that parts of the act were ‘recycled’, as it were.

    There’s nothing wrong with putting on a show; for crying out loud, it’s what we pay them to do. And they can’t do something different every single night. They don’t have the time or the resources. Besides, why bother, when you’re singing to a different crowd every night who won’t have any idea what your last concert was like? So I completely understand the ’show-biz’ aspect. But don’t misrepresent God. That runs counter to everything SG is supposed to stand for.

  8. Delores wrote:

    Those are not the only 2 places they did that. Saw in it SC and NC as well, for years I had trouble listening to them. But later I had a chance to be around them and even came to enjoy their music.

    The wonderful thing is even when folks mess up and do things they shouldn’t, God can and does forgive but us humans will remember it forever.

  9. Irishlad wrote:

    #6Wes….i could have sworn the venerable Wade penned that,and not Avery.

  10. Irishlad wrote:

    Hi Wade buddy.we certainly have ‘Tongues’ over here,but ptl, St Paddy threw all the snakes out of Ireland years ago(allegedly of course).lol.

  11. Scott wrote:

    This is really funny. It’s a VERY early memory but I do know it happened at the Chuckey-Doak High School in Greeneville, TN (Chuckey being a derivative of the Nolichuckey River that ran nearby and Doak named after the Doak family who settled the area).

    Johnny Cook was singing with them then and Vestal was with them but sick on the bus–heart problems, you know. Anyway, Cook apparently had a tooth ache but was “doing his best” to get through the show. With poor Vestal on the bus having tachychardia, I suppose it was the least he could do.

    About 1/4 of the way into the show they started, you guessed it, God Walks the Dark Hills. And I’ll have to say, Johnny Cook was doing his best Vestal impersonation. “Gyod Wawks the Dark HEEELS….” and then about half-way through the song, Vestal appears from behind the curtains, dressed in her full-gospel, pentacostel evening gown, hair so high you wondered if she could get off the bus without falling over.

    High theater. The crowd went absolutely wild. She finished the show with them and Johnny Cook slinked off behind the curtain never to be heard from again.

    Spontaneous? Never. Great entertainment? Absolutely.

  12. Mark wrote:

    Any one remember the Thrasher Bros? I saw them do the same shtick three different times in different cities in which they claimed that just that very day on the bus one of the bros (I’ve forgotten whether it was Joe, Jim, or Buddy) supposedly had picked up a trumpet for the first time in 25 years, but was going to play with the other for us that night. How touching (Yeah - right!)

    I also remember the Oak Ridge Boys doing the “we’ve never sung this brand new song in public before, but just feel we have to sing it to you tonight because someone here needs this message” bit up to as many as four different times in different cities with the SAME SONG!

    I can’t say that I’m surprised at all to hear the Goodmans pulled a variation on this act too. I wonder if they learned it from Jim Baker while they were on his staff?

  13. bc wrote:

    Speaking of the Goodmans, can someone tell me who the chick is sitting beside Tanya in this old Gaither clip?


  14. CG wrote:


    That is Bill & Gloria Gaither’s daughter, Suzanne.

  15. Ken wrote:

    I belive the lady you are asking about bc is Gaither’s daughter.

  16. rr wrote:

    I think it is Bill’s daughter Amy, not Suzanne. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktQpH3pEY44

  17. rr wrote:

    Amy Gaither-Hayes is the full name.

  18. Matt G. wrote:

    I’m pretty sure that IS Suzanne and not Amy.

  19. CG wrote:

    You are correct, sir! Amy, she is. I stand corrected; my apologies to the Gaithers and Hayes’ (and the Jennings’, as well). ;)

  20. Glenn wrote:

    Wes is the kind of person that makes it impossible to have an intelligent conversation on this site (other than you Doug).

  21. CVH wrote:

    I shared this story on some other thread awhile ago but it pertains to this one too. Back in the early 70’s, about 1973, I saw the Downings three nights in a row in the northeast. They had just released “Love Beyond Compare” (which admittedly was a great record).

    They had their schtick down too…Anne’s comments, Joy’s tears and hankie, Dony’s crocodile tears during “It’s My Desire”. Same thing, same place in the set every night. Not only that but they were touting the new record and in Paul’s fervent pitch the cost of making it went up from $15,000 the first night to over $20,000 by the third night. I’d love to know what it cost by the time they made it west to Iowa.

  22. Grigs wrote:

    #11, I hate to pile on, but a friend told me that he saw the same thing in Louisville. Only difference was that I don’t recall my friend saying that it was announced that Vestal was on the bus.

  23. NS wrote:

    In the video who is the girl in the purple sitting next to Scott Fowler???

  24. AnnD wrote:

    That’s so funny, CVH :). One of the things folks used to say about the Downings was how spontaneous we were, guess we must have run out of material or something those three nights? lol. I never knew what song was coming next, nobody did but Paul who would tell Dony nobody else. I guess you caught us on some “off nights”.

    Another part of your post that made me sorta giggle was the fact that “It’s My Desire” wasn’t even written yet in 1973. Hey, but thanks for the compliment concerning “Love Beyond Compare” record. I have it on CD now if you want to update your library.

    Hey, I’m sure you weren’t intending to offend, so I’m not offended or sad….I just really miss that group at times, know what I mean??..Ann D

  25. Wade wrote:

    # 12…Mark Baby… The Goodmans taught Jim Baker believe me… they were doing it way before they were with Jim & Tammy!!!

    # 20…Glenn… yeah to the former… I am constantly amazed. The MOST fun thing along that line is HEARING a friend get a story and then hearing them relate the data to some one else and you wonder… HOW did they get THAT from THAT??? PPl live in their own reality and do not mess it up for them!!! LoL;-))) Hint to Irishlad… Leave Wes alone!!! LoL lol ;-))) :-)))

    Speaking of IrishLad… there are MANY green wet areas there…I know there are snakes… if I’d had a couple of rattle snakes I could have sold them that night!!! Get yours outta of the crate we know you got’em!!lol… but please stop drinking that battery acid it will give ya HEART BURN!!

    I would like to have a thread Dr Avery Lord on the best church jokes & funny church stories… I have a show soon that will be some church singles groups. I am trying to get the owner of the local comedy club to have clean comedy night. NEED YOUR SUPPORT… if you do not don’t support it…do not complain when there is not one. I AM REALLY TRYING!!lol To clean it up…NoN & SGFan are getting to me!!

    I still miss Dr. Joe.

    Good to see LeeBob on the other day confessing publicly he had sin!!! :-))) lol… if you sing in make quartet it is difficult not to have any!! LoLoLoL;-)) :-))

    How about it QMAN!!??

  26. GospelMusicFan wrote:

    I have a question.
    Is this thread uplifting to the glory of God?
    Boy and girls, the ACLU would have a difficult time.
    Wouldn’t know who to represent.
    The target or targets of this thread or the accusers.

  27. c wrote:

    Please be careful when speaking of the holy spirit and gods healing touch!! I understand your ?? 2 nights in a row thing but be careful in this topic. My GOD is awesome and can do whateve he wants whenever he wants.

  28. Burt wrote:

    Speaking of schtick…remember the Steeles durning the “We Want America Back” tour!

  29. Radioguy wrote:

    From what I understand the Goodmans were huge on entrance and presentation. But I think many do not associate that with them because the claim by some that Howard and Vestal singlehandly changed SG in the 70’s by challenging the singers and musicians to get right with God and live what they sang overshadowed some of the “stunts” they pulled.

  30. ST wrote:

    Here’s another Goodman story I heard. The Goodmans were all about the image of appearing above the rest and had made it to the top . . . . you know, gospel music stars. A promoter said that when they came to town they would stay at some roach motel because it was all they could afford. However, they would make the driver go park the bus at the Hilton or some glamerous hotel; the bus driver slept on the bus in the parking lot. Doing this kept the image up of were rich and famous gospel stars.

    Rick Goodman made sure this image was kept up throughout their career. I heard that in Ohio at an outdoor singing, Howard and Vestal were driven in a limo to the stage. I also remember at NQC when they were coming to their booth that Rick was preparing and clearing the way. “Step back, Howard and Vestal Goodman coming through,” he would shout. I often wondered if he did that because he and they thought they were stars or just because they were so big.

  31. onemadeupmind wrote:

    To Ann Downing: Do you really expect us to believe that the Downings never had a program, and testimonies weren’t canned, and nobody ever tried to manipulate a crowd with words, tears, poor poo me/us testimonies? You’re selling, but I’m not buying.

  32. Friend of SG Music wrote:

    I have no doubt that Howard and Vestal died poor because of Ricky. Remember the BMW and Cadillac he tried to sell online after their death? The funny one I remember is when Mrs. Ricky bought a two seater Ponitac convertible, but suddenly had to sell it because she couldn’t get the grandchildren’s car seats in. I laughed so hard about that. I think H & V were good people, but Ricky elevated them a lot higher than they needed to be. He was nasty about finances when you would book them in later years.

  33. Tyro wrote:

    check this out


  34. Videoguy16 wrote:

    Wow, so many posts re: spontaneous shtick in SG without one mention of the McKameys.

  35. Irishlad wrote:

    #24AnnD…. In 1973 you said the song wasn’t even’t written yet…. CVH said around 1973… that’s a world of difference when there’s $15-$20k ridinig on it ?.

  36. CVH wrote:


    No offense intended and I’m glad none taken. I should have been more specific too, those were my general observations from seeing you guys a number of times from ‘71 to about ‘76. Pearce wrote “Desire” in 75? 76? Great song and you guys owned it, but he was a little over the top sometimes. What was specific to the three nights was how the cost of the album’s production seemed to keep rising.

    The “Love Beyond Compare” record seemed to be one where the songs, arrangements and performances really came together, especially the vocal arranging which seemed to be a bit more polished than some of the earlier albums. The material probably dictated that but it was one of my favorites of the group.

  37. Bones wrote:

    Did you see the Goodmans in Nashville one year with their security guards? They came with the limo that they drove into the building. They stood by the stage while they sang. Someone said that you couldn’t have carried one off if you had wanted to. I said that if you did, you certainly would have brought it back. Did you ever notice the way that they talked? It was funny. One time Sam was talking about God being the ALPHO and AMEGA. Everyone has sang I wouldn’t take nothin’ for my Jersy Cow.

  38. quartet-man wrote:

    #25, Wade “How about it qman?” Is that asking if I have sin or if I would admit it. Well, if I said no I would be sinning by lying, but really, I have admitted sin here on averyfineline, I believe, and if I didn’t, it wasn’t to try to hide it. It isn’t something that comes up in every day conversation. But, I have freely admitted to it. My calling out sin is not because I feel I have none or that it is easier to call out someone else’s than deal with my own, it is because God said it, and it would be a disservice to allow people to say wrong is right without correcting them.

  39. rr wrote:

    CVH said: “The “Love Beyond Compare” record seemed to be one where the songs, arrangements and performances really came together, especially the vocal arranging which seemed to be a bit more polished than some of the earlier albums. The material probably dictated that but it was one of my favorites of the group.”

    Maybe AnnD could enlighten us as to why the arrangements may have seemed more polished. Who did the vocal arranging? Dony McGuire? Do you think it was the arranging or the choice of material?

  40. Arleon Music wrote:

    I don’t visit this forum. It is a waste of time. However, something needs to be posted, and I quote:

    I had occasion, just for 2 minutes, which was my toleration level, and all I could possibly take, to witness what might have been the most stupid and lame and embarrassing Southern Gospel stage production ever witnessed by man.

    Ernie Haase & Signature Sound literally nauseated me, from their foolish and contrived stage antics, to their bottom slapping routine, where the bass singer actually slaps Ernie Haase on the bottom as he walks across the stage. SICK

    The entire production was stupid and sickening. It likewise grieved the Holy Spirit and brought shame to the name of Christ.

    What I witnessed inspired me to exclaim, “If these nuts, Ernie Haase and Signature Sound, represent what is happening now in the industry of Gospel music, then Southern Gospel music is now in the toilet.” What an utterly embarrassing display of loons they are.

    These halfwits crossed the line, of proper Christian entertainment, to a geek show, somewhere between a homosexual off Broadway production and demons dancing.

    I am not suggesting the boys are gay by the way. They are stupid, not gay.

    And to think, I actually pitched these nuts songs. Never again.

  41. Wade wrote:

    QMAN…since I was talking about quartets I was just asking about your opinion about 6-8 men on the bus… do you think that is difficult to do to not have a few of them maybe not in THAT place outside what Vestal would have blessed when they judged ppl much.

    I know you have sin and was not asking you to confess like LeeBoB did…

    BTW… when is your next event at the soon to be Mega Church?? Let’s have a SINGING!!! LoL;-)) Hope your service this Am is a good one.

  42. Irishlad wrote:

    #25Wade,this is a true story.Just to fill you in a bit; i come from a very respectable,conservative Irish Baptist background,and,believe you me they don’t take any nonsense.Well on to the story;this recently converted guy got up one night to give his testimony and this the way it went.”Dear friends i’m so happy to be here, and do you know i was once one of the worst sinners that ever lived.But tonight dear friends i’m so happy,praise the Lord, i could smash every one of those f**king windows in the place”. That’s a true ,my mum’s a dire hard and she was there.

  43. Irishlad wrote:

    #39…excuse me there was quite few mistakes in that post, like dire hard instead of die hard, it’s the old ‘battery juice’ you know. I wonder, by the way, what AnnD’s reason was for spelling Dony. As in DMcQ,i presume,plz let me know if i’m wrong.

  44. Irishlad wrote:

    #40. Sorry AnnD,or, Little Annie.as my good pal JT used to refer to youl(in private of course).You were quite correct in your spelling.

  45. Daniel J. Mount wrote:

    FYI, regarding #40, Arleon Music is the publishing company of Larry Petree


  46. sgfan65 wrote:

    # 23 - That is Amy Roth - formerly of the Nelons - now a soloist.

  47. Irishlad wrote:

    #40 Larry P,i presume.Way back in the 60’s the Statesmen were singing somewhere and Hovie,just to spur things on a bit called out to Rosie’come on fat boy get out there and do your stuff’ accompanied with a manly slap on poor Rosie’s ample rear end. What do you think of that for Pc? Would put Eh&ss to shame.

  48. SG4me wrote:

    Something tells me that Arleon didn’t get any of his songs recorded. If the Sigs had recorded just one, I guarantee he would be changing his opinion faster than Obama, stupidity and all!

  49. Grave Digger wrote:

    #47. There were plenty of things said and done of the gospel music stage in the 50s and 60s that would not be deemed acceptable today. Anyone who has heard the recording of the Statesmen Quartet on the stage of the Will Rogers Auditorium in 1959 can attest to that.

    It was a different time and a different place.

  50. onemadeupmind wrote:

    #48–I do not think so. LP is a man of principles and integrity. I have know him for years. His integrity cannot be bought and sold. He is the real deal. He would rather go hungry than compromise his integrity.

  51. Jake wrote:

    Mr. Petree (Arleon Music #40) — Personally, I find your diatribe disgusting.

    I think it is pretty stupid for someone of your supposed calliber to get on here and call another group of men stupid.

    And just what your foolish venom had to do with the topic at hand (planned spontaneity) is beyond me.

    Oh well, it’s a free country, which means anyone has the right to be an idiot!

  52. Bill Gaither wrote:

    Of course I am not BG; so who says Arleon Music, the poster, is Larry?

    This topic is so right on…so many groups if they can’t get you to cry with the song, they start talking about their dead grandma or some kid with a bad disease, or sing “ad nauseum” verses of Amazing Grace, acapella of course. “Oh I feel the Lord in this place tonight.”

  53. quartet-man wrote:

    #41 Wade, I still don’t get what you are asking or talking about. :-)

  54. AnnD wrote:


    I don’t know if you’ll believe it or not, but I can tell you that we didn’t do the same “program” every night….guess testimonies probably sounded much the same, I’m not sure who you were referring to. When you think about it, if you’re telling something specific about your life you only have one of ‘em so it’ll probably sound familiar, don’t you think? :) Hey guys, it’s not my intention to argue that the Downings always did it right, in fact I’d like to go back and change a lot of things…

    And CVH…hey, how good of you to say you didn’t intend any offense…but what did you mean? :).

    rr….I’m not sure I know how to explain why the Love Beyond Compare album “just came together” as somebody said…I think we were just growing and learning, listening to ways to be better. Bob MacKenzie was a terrific producer who pushed us to be better. Dony did do quite a bit of the vocal arranging and came up with most all the musical arrangements. We just sang songs we liked the way we liked to sing, I guess. ad

  55. Irishlad wrote:

    #49.I’m quite aware of that, the point i was making(to LP)was,the stuff Eh&ss get up to now is innocuous in comparison.

  56. Irishlad wrote:

    Here’s something SOT. Could anyone outthere have an inkling of the earning of a top tier sq quartet member would be,someone like say Gene McDonald (when he was singing)or Aaron McCune,orany other of the many artists singing for the top groups,and i mean employees,not owner managers. I ask because in our part of the world we don’t have professional groups,and,from time to time it comes up for discussion informally amongst ourselves.

  57. SG4me wrote:

    to mr. onemadeupmind,
    If he is such a “man of principles and integrity” then how could he have pitched songs to EHSSQ in the first place? Bitterness makes people say things that should not be said, and his post is 99 44/100 percent pure bitter! Arleon songs should be boycotted after spewing such non-Christian venom.

  58. onemadeupmind wrote:

    57–Maybe he pitched the songs early on, before they started with all that gay looking, dancin’, butt slappin’ schtick.

    In all reality, LP doesn’t need me to defend him. He’s his own man.

    After 20 years of knowing him, I trust his reasoning and judgment.

  59. SG4me wrote:

    It is easy to see by your comment . . .
    “Maybe he pitched the songs early on, before they started with all that gay looking, dancin’, butt slappin’ schtick. ”
    . . . that you (and Arleon) have issues that are unresolved. I would encourage you to visit a pastor or some counselor to help you. From your comment, all NCAA and NFL guys are gay looking too - with all that slappin’ and dancin’ they do. Don’t be afraid. Those Sig Sound boys ain’t gonna hurt you. . . really!

  60. nonSgfan wrote:

    LP will stop pitching songs to people that show the stupidity that Ernie Haas and Signature sound show. It IS Larry, and hes exactly right. Also Jake, it is not his “supposed” caliber. The man has had hit after hit after hit with dozens and dozens of groups. Wether it be David Phelps (my favorite singer) and his feminine talking and gestures, or Ernie Haas’s feminine smile and wild-eyed look, these boys look like the gay folk. I dont believe they are…but they look it. 3 pounds of make up, and dancing like idiots. Its repulsive.

    ALSO, to Wade…I TOTALLY dont believe your story about Vestal and the Goodmans.

    #1 I would believe it if it were 2 different cities, but NOBODY is dumb enough to pull the same stunt in the same city where 90% of the crowd is the same as the night before. That is ridiculous.

    #2 I dont believe that the Goodmans were blasphemers..and to FAKE a healing is blasphemy. If thats the case, they are in hell today if they didn’t repent. Howard, especially was one of the most dynamic stage performers in history, he didnt NEED antics to get people going, he was a natural, Along with vestal and the rest.

    I dont believe it happened, I believe it is contrived, and you lied. :)

  61. Wade wrote:

    NoN… Calm Down Honey… go back and read it again…1 night in Knox..next night in Chattanooga…and ahhh there are at least 3 other ppl on the thread to who saw same. Get back on your meds. Glad it didn’t scare ya!! LoL;-)))

    You sure you don’t llolw your wife to write under your post name???

    As far as # 40 Areleon… NoN if you wanna know a lie… I love it when a poster, listener or attendee says… I DON’T READ this site much…lol…that’s the biggest lie in entertainment.

    I don’t believe that is LP…if it is he needs the same meds as NoN.

    AnnD… don’t worry about it. Many on the site don’t understand hyperbole, while some LIVE in IT!!! You have the track record…they don’t. Lots of Haters!! Thanks for all you have done.

    QMAN - Don’t worry about it… The ship has sailed.

    IrishLad- Just know Old Harry Peters is out there bustin’ 1 for ya every day. lol It’s OK you messed up a few of your post. I have told ya about that BUTTERMILK & WRITING simultaneously!!! LoL;-))

  62. Wade wrote:

    Ok that was bad for even me… so I will restate it… NoN… are you SURE you do not ALLOW your wife to post under your name???

  63. 1 old fan wrote:

    AnnD — You’re right about that configuration of the Downing. There were one of the best sg groups EVER! Great blend, apparently great personal chemistry (in those years, anyway). 4 wonderful people/singers working together to present great songs about a great God to an appreciative audience.

    It doesn’t get any better than that!

    God bless you, Ann!!! You are loved!

    By the way, I used to go to church with Ann, and saw her on many occaisions when she was not in the spotlight. I believe Ann to be the real deal.

  64. Obeserver wrote:

    Yes there are somejealous posters here today. Whatever EHSS do or however they appear, they are one of the hottest groups out there. I have a 14 year old son and EHSS is his fav. group and he is not ashamed to tell his friends. When they ask who?, it opens the door to witness. Say what you may, think what you may, but I think fans of EHSS could do alot worse. Remember, God knew everything you would ever do and still died for you, God knew everything EHSS would do and still blesses them.

  65. SG4me wrote:

    Attaboy nonSgfan - posts like that will surely win folks to Jesus, not!

    Careful not to step in the love!

  66. Radioguy wrote:

    The Downings were one of the top five groups of their era in my opinion. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting Ann and Joy both. Every now and then, something special will happen with a certain combination of invididials. That happened with Dony, Joy, Ann and Paul. Other former Downings were great too, it’s just those four had something special. By the way, just found an l-p recently at a second hand store by McGuire. Dony and Joy are on it along with Fred Satterfield and others. I haven’t had a chance to listen to it. Is it any good? I see it’s on Greentree which leads me to believe it’s quite progressive.

  67. Not a Rick G. Fan wrote:

    Hey you all had better hurry up and get over to Ebay. Now Vestal’s sewing machine is up for sale! Starting at $537.00. Wonder what Ricky is up to now? The website must not be making as much money.

  68. AnnD wrote:


    That record was progressive in its day, probably wouldn’t be considered that today :).

    I appreciate your positive comments about the Downings…and I even listened to the “not so positive” ones.

    You know….the things y’all say here aren’t always the issue as much as the tone in which you say them. Opinions are always allowed in this wonderful free country of ours..but giving them in hate is not allowed, is it?…by those who love Jesus? I luvvvvv to argue and debate and don’t mind confrontation at all, but it sure is easier to hear some biting words if they’ve been preceded with at least a little bit of more positive comment or two…kinda opens the ears better, ya know? ad

  69. Woodstock wrote:

    Big Downings fan here, starting with Love Beyond Compare. They were entertaining without being fakey. Ann, could you get the I Feel So Good About It album released on CD? I met Joy at Christ Church in the early 90’s. She was friendly, humble, and could out-pray Vestal… The McGuire album was pretty progressive. I think there are songs from it on Dony’s MySpace page.

  70. onemadeupmind wrote:

    AnnD, Please don’t mistake my comments for criticism. :-) I too, was a big fan! Paul Downing could knock the bottom out of a note. The energy that you guys possessed was unmatched. Jake Hess had a TV show in Nashville in the early 70’s that I watched as a kid. Greater is He had me hooked!

    Wasn’t meaning to offend with my comments, just know that most performers have a routine they get in to, that’s all.

  71. onemadeupmind wrote:

    One more thing! Even though you’re not a “spring chicken” anymore, you’re still a pretty hot lady!!

  72. Wade wrote:

    onemadeupmind… call Ann something other than HOT!!! That’s reserved for Tori Taff. One hint…don’t EVER tell a woman they are not a spring chicken…no matter what you tell them after that does not count…just leave that out.

    If you need anymore help with your GAME just ask me or Old Harry Peters!! LoL:-))

  73. AnnD wrote:

    Wayelllllll thanks, onemadeupmind. I appreciate your “no spring chicken/pretty hot lady comment LOL LOL.
    Uh, I think I’m having a harder time reallllly believing you weren’t being a bit cynical? “You’re selling but I’m not buying”…don’t know, but that almost sounds like you were saying I wasn’t telling the truth? Maybe I overreacted? :). ad

  74. AnnD wrote:

    Woodstock, I don’t have I Feel So Good About It album on cd yet, but I do have 5…This is How it is…Live, Praise Him…Live, Spiritfest, Greater, and Love Beyond Compare….www.anndowning.com.

  75. JM wrote:

    I find it fascinating that we attempt to reinvent history to take away the sting of our collective memory. And while I see no good thing coming from bashing SGM performers who have passed on, I also don’t believe in making yesterday’s opportunists and survivors into today’s saints of God. A great number of SGM performers of the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s were well-intended individuals, with some musical talent and exposures to conservative protestant theology. Many of these folks saw SGM as a ready access out of a hard-scrabble life in the hills. And while some may have been truly “called to ministry,” most made a logical choice to prosper in a field of endeavor in which they could earn a living. In an expression of historic vanity, we may sit today and make rather grand, sweeping statements about how good a particular group was or how a particular group had a flair for showmanship or how a given group was spirit-filled. However, let’s not loose our sense of historic integrity. Some may have been spirit led; may have produced some great albums; may have been top-notch performers. But SGM was a ticket, for many, out of a poor, rural life of limited possibilities and likely anonimity. Be gentle and considerate in your assessment of these folks; they were likely musical novices and self-taught showmen, who did their best to give people what they wanted. If we wanted the opportunity to buy one of Vestal’s hankies, she was willing to sell. If we believed that James Blackwood had lost his voice and then miraculously regained it, just in time to sing “Release Me” from the front of the stage, then we had a story to pass on to our children. If we allow some singer to reinvent the circumstances surrounding the writing of a song to convenience a certain spot in a concert, then we have chosen to suspend the truth for the “magic” of that moment. No, no, no, brothers and sisters. These men and women were not liars or showmen or worse. They were devoted to giving us what we wanted and, if that involved a bit of misrepresentation or fabrication, so be it. They sang and performed and moved on. We came and bought tickets and albums and received a blessing. Is that wrong? I’d gladly pay a thousland dollars to hear J.D., Big Chief and Brock Speer go into one of their low-singing contests. Those were the days! And even if they were somewhat fake and contrieved, I count myself fortunate to have been there. Thank God for memories!

  76. nonSGfan wrote:

    Wade, not everybody who gives intelligent debate to you is on medicine hoooney, or a woman. In life sometimes, you arent always right. and…

    YES IT IS LARRY PETREE. If you read any of his other writings you know its him.

    SGfan4me….and your thread DOES win people to Jesus? Is THAT what this website is for?
    SILLY ME I thought it was “critisism and commentary of southern gospel music and culture”….I MUST HAVE MISSED THE MEMO THAT IT IS NOW..”evangelistic critisism and commentary of southern gospel music and culture”.

    Also Wade, Knox and Chatt are 1 hour from each other, maybe a little more. I cannot see them doing the same bit in the same town, or even 1 hour apart. Its just stupidity. IF THEY DID, either they are very dumb…OR they believe their listeners are dumb. And, they may be right.

    More about Ernie Hassssse. The dudes look feminine. I dont care what you say…they look a little feminine. As does phelpsy.

  77. Faith wrote:

    Yeah, I love it…”I don’t read this forum”…”I never visit this site”…and of course, my personal fave, “After I post this, I am never visiting this website ever again!”

  78. JLL wrote:

    Wow. Some of y’all sure do have the joy, joy, joy, joy down in your hearts don’t you? I find it ironic and somewhat amusing that people so enthralled by southern gospel music can come across as hateful, bitter harpies on this comment thread–makes me question if some of you are even listening to the words of the songs you dissect so carefully! What wonderful witnesses of Christ’s love some of you must be. Then again, perhaps I expect too much…

    I loved the Goodman story and I hope it’s true. It wouldn’t lessen my enjoyment of their music or diminish its message one bit.

  79. Bones wrote:

    EHSS has gone way beyond copy catting the Statesmen. Hovie wouldn’t have beeb caught dead slapping another guy in the butt. They will lose some of their gospel fans if they keep it up, and maybe bookings.

  80. Irishlad wrote:

    Just had a quick peek at Arleon Music’s website.Guess what? Mr Petree’s got the begging bowl out for a ‘mere’ 60 big ones. Now he says it goes against every fibre in his body to do so,but, he’s got no choice because the Lord’s making him do it. Hmmm….you could go off a fella right and quick.

  81. SG4me wrote:

    Is it just me or is ole #76 wound a little tightly? Must have had a bad experience with a tenor singer somewhere in his past. SG is equal opportunity for the “dudes” that “look feminine” and the Cracker Barrel addicts in matching red suits. And, they can all purchase booth space at NQC and full page ads with an accompanying news story in the SingingNews! What a country!

  82. Alan wrote:

    It’s great to see you responding here, Ann (Downing). I credit you for setting a couple of things straight. I’ve always wished that more of the folks who take a thrashing on here would chime in, but likely they recognize this for what it is and stay away. Please allow me to also say that in my mind, The Downings were one of the freshest and most exciting groups in their day. It almost didn’t matter who your personnel was; every grouping was just phenomenal.

    I’ve been wishing that there was still someone close to The Goodmans who could add some focus to the things that have been written here. I’m always saddened to think of the four of them in Heaven…not for them, of course, but just that a pretty wonderful era ended when they all died. I’ve always felt very honored to have been friends with them. I rode that purple Eagle many times, stayed in Rusty and Billie’s home more nights than I could count. I was Howard and Vestal’s guest in their home more than once as well, and in my time around them all, even with the inevitable synthesis that the passing of years brings, I hold them in incredibly high regard. Were they perfect people? No, and they’d have been the first to tell you that. But, for whatever it’s worth, I’ll always believe them to be the real deal. Did that episode happen that Wade delighted to tell us? I don’t know…maybe it did. I can say that in my times with them, I never saw anything like that. They were certainly consummate showmen, and the awards and honors that they won were well - deserved. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe they were the first sgm group to carry a full live band. I’m pretty sure they were the first to wear formal dress. In so many ways, they were bigger than life. Millions of albums sold, the highest flat of their day by far, an instantly recognizable sound - both instrumentally and vocally. They left a legacy that’s hard to discount. It’ll survive the sadness of Howard and Vestal’s life being auctioned on eBay. For many years, I’ve told anyone who will listen that Rusty was one of my heroes of the faith. As a young guy, for whatever reason, he chose to invest in me. Not financially, but of himself. The life lessons that he taught me will never be forgotten. Very shortly before he died, I wrote him a really long letter, in which I told him all of the reasons why I loved him, and how I promised to never forget all that he shared with me. Billie said that when she read it to him, he cried through it. I treasure those - and many more - memories. It sort of saddens me to read posts that seem to suggest that they were fakes or frauds.
    They aren’t here to defend themselves. You were right, JM, in this - they left a small town in AL and for quite a while, set the Gospel music world on fire. If all we got from it was “Who Am I?” and “Had It Not Been”, their journey was a profitable one. Best of all, Rusty, Sam, Howard, and finally Vestal are now all healed, and permanently. And no one can doubt that it’s real this time.

  83. onemadeupmind wrote:

    Ann D–Sorry about the spring chicken remark. Wasn’t meant to be out of order. (I feel as though I’m digging deeper here.) I read your bio, and even though I am happily married man, 20 years your junior, I genuinely think you are a very attractive, classy, lady.

  84. CVH wrote:


    Everyone’s taste is different and we all have our favorite records by our favorite artists. With the Downings, my first exposure was the Live album you did in Muncie and that was and still is a top ranking record in my book. The live albums Benson released in that era (Imperials in St. Louis, Oaks in Nashville, even the early Gaither double-album) had a real authenticity to them that captured the unpolished simplicity and raw performance without a lot of overdubs, mults, etc. And they had bands…what a concept.

    There’s another other older one I have always enjoyed but I’m not remembering the title…’Down Home’ maybe? It’s the one where you’re all sitting in the second floor window of an old house. That had great songs too.

    As the group evolved, the ones I enjoyed the most were “Love Beyond Compare” - no matter what it actually cost :) - “Greater is He” and “I Feel So Good About It” with those fantastic horn charts by Barry McDonald. The title song is another example of a tune you guys absolutely owned. I found a sealed copy of “Greater” on eBay a few years ago and did a digital transfer and it sounds remarkably good for a 30 year old 16 or 24-track analog recording.

    Sometimes I wonder, more about groups from the 70s and 80s than today, how much of an impact the influence of the changing times and music trends had on them - the changes in presentation, clothes, hairstyle, plus the songs and arrangements - and how much was deliberately manufactured or dictated by the labels to increase the group’s appeal to an ever-changing audience. I look at the changes you guys went through or, say, the Speers in that same time period, and I wonder what really drove the change…artistic restlessness, some spiritual renewal, Bob (aka “Little Caesar”) MacKenzie’s influence, etc.

    Personally I thought Spiritfest was ok but by the time you got to “Birthplace” my interest was waning. I often wonder what would have happened if you guys kept going, but everything has its time and season and I’m grateful for what the Downings did in its time.

  85. onemadeupmind wrote:

    Wade, thanks for helping me in the area of PC. I wasn’t attempting to be demeaning to Ms. Downing. Tori Taff Hot?? Are you kidding me???? She’s ok.

    I better shut up. Someone may think I’m an evil stalker….I’m harmless. Really.

  86. justmy2centsworth wrote:

    You know if you really know the LORD as your savior, and your committment to him is real, then every where you go, every thing you do, reflects on him… WHY would you go somewhere or do something that you wouldn’t want to have him there with you? WHY would you write something you wouldn’t would be ashamed for him to read? Whether it’s here or wherever. Why would you come to this site if it doesn’t reflect at least SOME Christian Values? We are ALWAYS to be a witness in everything we say or DO to our LORD.

  87. justmy2centsworth wrote:

    Sorry, I meant to say—WHY would you write something you would be ashamed for him to read.

  88. Grave Digger wrote:

    First time I heard the Downings come on stage singing “Do Right and Come Smiling Through”, I knew they were something special . . . but I did get tired of hearing “City of Gold”!

  89. Brandon Andrews wrote:

    I love AnnD and I Love the Downings, Though they were far before my time, I have most of their music on recordings, and I still find that they chose songs with evident messages and biblical truth, that touched the hearts of people, and if they cried in the same spot every night it’s because the line that they had just sang touched them every night. It’s like getting saved once it happens to you, you never get over, as in “I’ve got confidence” on “this is how it is… live” Paul talks after the 2nd reprise and talks about Job and how the lyrics came straight from the bible, he said “it’s in there you can read it for yourself”… not many artist can say that about their songs today… so with all that said, I say that if the Downings are being accused of being consistently emotional then let the accusations roll, but if you say it wasn’t real, you better think twice. once again I love AnnD :) and The Downing’s… You should all go purchase the CD versions of the vintage records at www.anndowning.com

    God Bless You All.

  90. Wade wrote:

    SG4me - # 81 - Yeah NoN is off his meds right now and is a little bi-polar, skizzin’. He laughs and agrees with me on 1 post and then he calls me a liar in the same thread. He has also taken up reading minds & become a writing detective. Please pray for him that he will get his refills.

    onemadeupmind - I wasn’t helping you be PC at all… I was just trying to help you with your game. Then you just go and continue to blow it even offending Tori I am sure. If a woman confesses to being SMOKIN’ Hot…then do not go and tell her she’s just OK!!! I am glad you are happily married or you would be in serious NEED!!! Probably are any way.

    Speaking of SERIOUS NEED… Good Detective work IrishLad… WoW… LP must be taking a page from oral roberts whack job. I saw everything on that except a message about PLANTING A SEED. Old Harry Peters SPREADS seed but that is pretty sad for old LP.

    I think I will set up a page, except I need $ 1,000,000. That was I can spread the word by starting my own ministry.

    I can hire Cliff to edit me and to get all the ppl all over the world to come see us in our Branson Services. He can also write and edit the magazine we are going to publish nationally partnering with Oprah’s O.

    I can hire QMAN to lead the singing in out MEGA CHURCH.

    I can Hire NoN to be Who ever he is on what ever day he chooses. Getting him out of his Mom & Dad’s place freeing up there computer.

    I can hire Dr Joe as Medical Minister so I can have what ever drugs I need to keep me going. Love Adderall to wake up and benzo’s to get down fyi. Plus I have this terrible eye problem and nausea issue that can only be cured by a little medical weed. Plus some times I get a terrible cough and back ache that can only be helped by some liquid hydro.

    This will keep me well and avoid having to be healed so I can come out and sing and preach. If only The Goodman’s had Dr Joe.

    Then I could hire Irishlad to be in charge of detective work and foreign mission work to THE LAND I LOVE!!

    Of course I would have to hire OLD Harry Peters to be in charge of communion services and counseling ministry.

    Then I could hire CVH to in charge of comedy writing and put downs. Then also put him and Non in a no DQ cage match to entertain the Romans.

    Lastly I could hire DH to be in charge of the university we can start to help people learn the correct way to sing and to inspire us to think for ourselves.

    Maybe I might need $ 2 Million to do all of that. But if you will just click on the pay pal account I have set up it will help lift these burdens we all have and we could maybe put on our own events and have our own awards that the Inspo’s & Young Harmony would NEVER WIN!!! LoL;-))

  91. AnnD wrote:

    I don’t come here very often…however, I’ve been here enough to read some little snide remarks that were less than flattering :), both about me personally and the Downings. I just brushed them off but sometimes wondered why those things were said since I was sure that person didn’t know me….and hadn’t bothered to check with me (I do have a website so I’m easily found :).

    I’m not one to go “calling for kudos”, but wanted to say that I do appreciate the encouraging emails I’ve received…and to be honest I’m kinda grateful to see some kinder remarks posted…..wonder if they’d have been posted if I hadn’t blogged?? :). Oh my…all of this pales in importance in light of an election we have coming up that should be of greatttttt concern to us all…it sure is to me. AD

  92. NonSGfan wrote:

    “Evangelistic commentary and critisism of southern gospel music”

    “Critisism and commentary of southern gospel music without true opinions or reality”.

    “Only constructive critisism and commentary of southern gospel music”

    You people crack me up with your “you are unchrist like” and “how bad of you” to say the TRUTH.

    Opinions are like armpits, everybody has two and they stink. BUT in this country, we have a right to waive them around like they are sparklers on the 4th of July.

  93. Obeserver wrote:

    #92 For someone who is so “enlightened” and always has the right “truths” you sure shine a negative light on a already dark world. We are on the threshhold of what could be a life changing election for us all and the attitude is who cares? If it means a few bucks for me, I’ll gladly give up my morals. A week from today if a decision has been made, the news of the day will be riots in the streets.

  94. hercules wrote:

    hey there, do you know if obama is elected we will be an OBAMANATION. Say that real fast 7 times. Interesting huh?

  95. Joe wrote:


    I’m only writing because you seem to miss me so badly, and now, want to hire me as your own personal narcotics-peddler. Sorry- I’m pretty selective for the controlled substances I write for!

    Closest I ever came to the Goodmans was that my brother and I recorded two albums in their studio in Madisonville KY years ago; we had our first cover photo taken standing under Howard and Vestal’s apple tree, and for one summer, my brother rode on their bus helping them with their product etc.

    I too have heard many tales about them. They still were a watershed group in SGM- and from all I have heard, Rusty was one of the most serious Christians and classy guys who ever sang and wrote this music.

    All the best.

  96. Bones wrote:

    What about the Singing Cookes and The Primitive? You always hear about poor dead grandma and her grave on the side of the mountain. If she is alive you hear about her gray hair. Teddy Huffam said that the Cookes always sing about graveyards.

  97. CVH wrote:

    Non…your last paragraph…now that’s a visual I didn’t need. Thanks.

  98. KEW wrote:

    #90 Wade- First time I ever heard a prayer request for medication refills. LOL that blessed my funny spirit!

  99. Wade wrote:

    Dr. Joe- Great to hear from ya!!! I have missed you…really…just because I do not agree with you does not mean I do not miss ya.

    So you mean to tell me you would not be my Dr. Nick like Elvis had??? Come on I would pay ya big money!!!lol

    But seriously Dr. Joe I missed ya.

    I want to make one thing clear. I am not beatin’ on the Goodman’s for their theatrics… I am a performer and could never do that. The beef I have with The Goodman’s is the way they black balled The Oaks for having long hair and not living the life to WHAT they JUDGED to be RIGHT.

    Then they would go and do stuff like my experience and it was OK!!! That’s hypocrisy at THE HIGHEST LEVEL!!!

  100. rr wrote:

    AnnD, there is a way to make your website show up when someone clicks on your name. Can someone tell her how to do that, please?

  101. NonSGfan wrote:

    observer. You are nuts. I never said I always have the right “truths”..I said I have opinions. The TRUTH is, the boys do look feminine.

    And if you want to talk about “dark days” coming..lets talk about the days when “good music” is Ernie Haas and his groups antics. Its disguisting at best. And I personally like Ernie Haas, AND his music. But I see the deception of ALL of it, to bring christianity to a place of no convictions, morals, or meaning..and make it NOTHING but entertainment. no conviction, NO real ministry…just good ole’ entertainment.

    And by the way, 90% of what I say here is simply a way to get reaction. Reactive posts are the best way to get a person to say what they REALLY mean, so thats why you have to say things for the sake of a rebuttal.

  102. Gospel Insider wrote:

    Without having to read ALL of the comments, some of which have NOTHING to do with the topic - allow me to respond.

    Bill Gaither has done an incredible job of “saving” some singers from a lonely funeral service. Many folks from the younger generation view some of these older singers in a light far different from those who grew up with them. That’s great.

    However, the “Holier Than Thou” attitude carried by the Goodmans did a number on their friends and peers.

    In gospel music, it’s often the case that all the bad reputations and criticism comes from other singers, rather than the listeners themselves (who pay the bills).

    The Goodmans weren’t that good. They made up for it by the way they presented their program, and by the way they tore down more successful groups.

    An example of this same attitude are the ones who tear down Ernie Haase and Signature Sound. I’ll admit, I was critical of them at first. However, it’s easy to see the hypocrisy if you allow yourself to.

    Most groups that are successful are torn down by lower-caliber groups. They can’t criticize their ability to sing, so they have to find something else. Usually, the high-caliber groups are deemed “compromisers” or “fakers” or whatever else you’ve probably heard. They have to develop a reason why a group that you shouldn’t listen to is doing so well.

    That’s what the Goodman’s did for Gospel Music.

  103. Jake wrote:

    NonSGfan (#100) — You know, it is a sad commentary on the Church today, but the fact of the matter is, most Christians are not particularly excited about worship. In my church (just like many others) if you have a dinner, a picnic, a movie, etc. you can expect some sort of crowd, but if you announce a prayer meeting you will get a handful at best. Sad, spiritually sick, but true.

    Like it or not, most churches have to use some “entertainment” factor to keep people’s interest. The Pastor tells some humorous stories or personal experiences during his sermon, we use big video screens & movie clips in more and more churches, we invest in big sound systems with quality sound — let’s face it, the bottom line is, if you don’t have some “entertainment” you just won’t get the people to come.

    Pretty well every SG group (at least, the ones who are full time and travel nationally) — they all use entertainment. Whether it is the jokes and stories they tell on each other during the concert, or whether it is a more flambouyant “show,” it becomes the “opening” into people’s lives that are necessary if you are going to be able to get to their hearts.

    When you speak so disparageng about Ernie Haase & SSQ — just remember that while their “style” may not be your personal cup of tea, they are using the entertainment factor as an opening to minister to hearts. And if you ever go to one of their concerts (as I did recently), they move from the “entertainment” mode into a more serious mode — and they connect with people. So don’t just write them off as worldly entertainment. They are using the tools and talents they have, combined with the reality of people as they are, in order to minister to hearts.

    If both saints and sinners would come and fill up churches and auditoriums to hear groups of singers who used nothing of “entertainment” value, that would be one thing. But they don’t. And unbelievers in particular can’t worship God, because their hearts are not right with him. So if the “entertainment” factor can become a tool to reach them — then like the Apostle Paul, we need to be willing to be all things to all men so that we might win some for Him.

  104. Ron F wrote:

    Hey Ann Downing we Love you. By the way, who are you voting for?????

  105. NonSgfan wrote:

    desperate times calls for desperate measures.

  106. AnnD wrote:

    rr….you can cut and paste, right?


    Sorry, I don’t know how to do whatever to make it clickable…guess I need to learn huh?:) ad

  107. AnnD wrote:

    Woops, guess I do know how :)

  108. Irishlad wrote:

    S0T. A few years back i missed out on a rare Sons of Song album. I knew their history but never heard them.So,imagine my delight when someone,just recently posted SOS singing the Old Ship on youtube.They really were ahead of the game at that time. Now that’s what i call pure spontaneity.

  109. NonSgfan wrote:


    I KNEW the truth would finally come out. You had alterior motives for contriving your story about a “Double healing”

    You were mad because they stood up for a biblical standard.

    “Hasnt nature itself taught you its shameful for a man to have long hair”

    Your disdain for The bible prompted you to attack a Godly family..

    Look out now….judgment cometh.

  110. rr wrote:

    AnnD . . . way to go! Now you’ll get more traffic to your website.

  111. AnnD wrote:

    wayelllllllllllll rr….have you been? We have fun there…chatroom every evening…fANN forum message board…..

  112. Wade wrote:

    NoN - You always make me laugh!!! :-) Let the judgment come forth. I am a BiG BoY both literally and figuratively. I got my hair cut today BTW!!! LoL ;-)

    Gospel Insider - #102… I could not have said it better myself!!!

    TGIF… Hope ya all have a fun Friday!!!

  113. quartet-man wrote:

    I’m not going to be (nor do I have time for) getting in to a debate about long hair, but the Goodman’s reputedly gave the Oaks grief due to jealousy and such back then. Back then their issue with hair was pretty much over the collar. The Oaks got flack for wearing fashionable clothes, using lighting, hair etc. The Goodmans did their best to run them out of the industry it appears. They called the Oaks a country act and criticized them, but the Goodmans listened to country music on the bus. The Oaks also got flack for doing Andrae Crouch music.

  114. onemadeupmind wrote:

    My father used to manage tickets for a major midwest promotion in the 1960’s. One night at Medinah temple, the Stamps with J.D. were doing, “The Three Nails.” In the middle of JD’s recitation, FEEEEEDBACKKKK that seemingly would have summonsed every dog in the downtown area to the venue. Rusty had messed with JD’s infamous “PA Set.”

    JD said, it would be useless to finish the song after the interruption and left Donnie, Ed, Bill on stage and promptly went back stage and got him a piece of old Rusty. It wasn’t pretty. In fact, several had to get between them to keep JD from taking his head off. My father said it was blatant and intentional. The Goodmans hit the stage in an attempt to bring the house down, but ultimately, it was the Statesmen who RULED that night.

  115. Irishlad wrote:

    #114 How in the name of all that’s good did pulling that stunt make any sense?Was Rusty trying to get the punters to their table rather than the Stamps’. You’d a thought if the 3 groups pulled together,gave a good concert ,made everyone happy then all the groups would have got a fair crack of the whip….or,prehaps, JD pulled the same stunt in a previous concert. Who knows??

  116. Ed wrote:

    I heard one night The Goodmans were late getting to the building where they would be preforming with 2 other groups. A drum kit was set up and when Ricky Goodman (drummer for the Goodmans) saw the set, he pushed the entire set off behind the curtain, so his drum kit could have the prime spot. All the Gaither videos that showed the other groups loving them, made me sick. Most groups despised them.

  117. Gospel Insider wrote:

    #114. What I want to know is why on earth did they put the Stamps and the Statesmen with the Goodmans? lol. What a mismatch.

  118. onemadeupmind wrote:

    115–Goodmans were champions at trying to upstage other acts. Some of the stuff pulled by Rick, Rusty, and crew are just down right mean spirited.

    Their protege`s, The Hinsons, pulled stunts as well. One pro group was singing on the Hinsons PA one night and sounded like junk. Hinsons got up, kicked in the compressors, verbs, eq’s, and sounded like a million bucks. Again, I don’t know why.

    But Southern Gospel Competition used to be fierce. I wonder if much of those antics exist today?

  119. Irishlad wrote:

    118- ’still exist today’? I would venture that the Cathedrals in their day, Gold City with TR and the present Gold City are so very,very good and consistently so that they would have been/be the last sort of groups in need of pulling stunts.As someone else mentioned the less talented groups were the ones who had to resort to such measures. It’s like when you drive a Lamborgini you don’t feel the need to race anyone else.

  120. Bones wrote:

    W.B.Nowlin (Promotor) got onto Ron Hinson at a concert and said “You go over your time, actup, I will not pay you”. Ron said,”Yes Sir”. One time the Goodmans bus pulled into a Waffle House parking lot and fans in there sang, We’re blest we”re blest, we are blest!(joking)

  121. Bones wrote:

    #116, I know that is true. I heard it from another group. Well, I think it was Mark Ellerbee’s drums. He said no,” I am not moving them.” Some fans thought they were all that because they made the ole ladies shout. The groups hated them.

  122. Wade wrote:

    121 - AW yeah Mark Ellerbee… Then the problem was it was THE OAKS Band…which was much better than the Goodman’s Band. That was a smoking band with Don Breland and Tommy Fairchild.

    Oak Performance Live @ The War Memorial Auditorium in Nashville was one of the BEST LIVE records EVER… I am proud to say I have 2 copies of it!!

    The guy from The Chuck Wagon Gang that is a collector told me they where worth about $ 700 in average condition.

    Oh Johnny Boy… is that correct?? I did not want to have any uninformed opinions!!! lol :-) ;-)

  123. quartet-man wrote:

    #122 Wade, you seem to know quite a bit about the Oaks. Do I know you? By the way, the guy from the Chuckwagon Gang is Harold Timmons. I don’t think the album would sell for that much, but it is a great album for sure. I have an extra I might consider selling for $700.00 :)

  124. Wade wrote:

    Hey QMAN… I don’t know if I know you or not I live in Chattanooga?? U?? loandr4u@yahoo.com gets me for real. Holla and tell me who ya are for real. if you are close I am serious about helping your church become MEGA!! :-)

    I just LOVE THE OAKS!! I play percussion @ a fairly competent level. I still play every Sunday @ a First Baptist Church and a few other times a month in dens of iniquity…lol

    Growing up besides being a member of The Cadek Conservatory here (Anthony Burger was the only person who kept me from being the youngest member) when I learned to play the drum kit I played with the record had to be thousands of time plus their King Jesus Live cut. It was my recurring dream to play in their band. Now the dream is to play with Harry Connick Jr…lol…

    A friend of mines wife was Don Breland’s Sister in Law. I remember seeing them when places were packed while they were gospel and bigger venues packed when they went country. But I also remember a sad night at the Tivoli Theater right before they were forced to go country where there were only about 100 ppl.

    That $ 700 was a value Harold gave me when I went to the NQC in the late 80’s. He told me if I ever wanted to sell one of my copies he knew some ppl that were buyers. He said something about there were not many of them cut. So call him up!!! I want to get it over to a CD.

    So Johnny Boy… do you consider any of those opinions uninformed??? Or fulla [Edit] lollol :-) ;-)

  125. Joe wrote:


    In what way were the Oaks “forced to go country”?!

  126. Wade wrote:

    Hey Dr. Joe… Been talked about much here… but basically Goodman’s, Kingsmen & to some degree Fla Boys informed promoters they would not sing on a program with them.

    What was framed as…THEY NEED TO LIVE THE LIFE…was really jealousy & hard feelings.

  127. Joe wrote:

    Hi Wade-

    I know it’s been talked about here, and I was closer to that story than you might believe…but their decision to leave SGM and go country was theirs and theirs alone.

    No one “forced” them out. They were packing venues all by themselves- and didn’t need any of those other mainliner groups to be successful. In fact, the less groups they sang with, the far more they took in.

    They were making tons. They just wanted to make more tons, and country was the way they chose. No one forced them into that decision.

  128. Wade wrote:

    # 127- Hey Dr. Joe,

    Hope ya had a fun Sunday!!! I have missed ya!! REALLY

    As far as the Oaks go… Don’t get me wrong I am glad they went country… I have said many times they should have sent Vestal & Hamill a check every month for being hypocritical.

    So what you are saying is…that since you were so close to it that ALL… those stories…MANY on this site, are all wrong???…and the stories I have heard from Dewayne, Bill & Don about almost starving and having to go open for Johnny Cash & Roy Clark in Vegas were all wrong???

    That the night I went to The Tivoli Theater in Chattanooga and there were only about 100 ppl there was a dream?? I cried that night. It was very personal to me. I remember it well. There were ppl outside protesting cause they said the Oaks were of the devil & their music was CONTEMPORARY!!! LoL;-)) Granted some of those ppl were probably from Tennessee Temple University… but it did happen my friend.

    Come on Dr. Joe??? With you being so close to it & ALL of history being wrong the next thing I know you are going to tell us again how you have played with many of the worlds biggest acts without substantiation, That Cliff C. is a world renown gospel music act & YOU KNOW the REAL reason Guy is taking time from The GVB!! LoL ;-) :-)

    Put UP!!! Come on… I admit I have learned things from some of your biblical writings here… but me thinks you are trying to rewrite history by writing some entertainment fiction.

    Are you then going to tell us that all the Goodman stories are false and EVERYONE LOVED them and that Rick Goodman is not a useless [Edit]???

    Come on you been gone a while so catch us up!! WITH Some Substance… we can get personal reality from NoN and blabbing code from Johnny Boy Masters..or McMasters or what ever his name is… he does not have the [Edit] to answer me calling him out… I know you are not that way!!!

    I miss Old Harry Peters & LeeBoB too…

  129. quartet-man wrote:

    #128 Joe, let me tell you a few things you might not be aware of concerning the Oaks.
    1. There were promoters who didn’t pay up like they were supposed to. Duane got in the habit of counting people in the audience because some promoters lowballed them. Even a few years ago when the Oaks did a date (or dates I am not sure) for a gospel promoter, they didn’t get paid. Duane wouldn’t say who and he said it was between them and God, but it goes to show you that not all was roses.

    The last year they sang nothing but gospel music, never singing a country song, out of the five major promoters where they would normally get 150 dates, they received 3 dates (one from each of three promoters.)

    Groups would take potshots at them from stage. One group of people in the audience walked out on them in a move that appeared to be planned.

    People would give the flack for using a band, for wearing turtlenecks instead of suits, for “long” hair (just over the collar.)

    How many of us would stay at a place where you were seen as pariahs, couldn’t get work, were almost starving to death, and you saw no signs of it changing?

    Were they perfect? Of course not. Did they have sights on becoming more than they were? Sure. Would they have eventually gone country on their own? Perhaps. But to say they weren’t forced out by the things I mentioned seems wrong.

  130. Wade wrote:

    Thanks QMAN… but don’t expect Dr. Joe to admit he was wrong… he get’s that cold from NoN!!! But I love Both of them!! As I do you. Write me on my real email. I would love to know some one who loves the ORB’s as much as I do.

  131. AnnD wrote:

    Hey Bones #121….the Downings’ drums were moved once, too….only once :). And would y’all believe the Oaks opened for the Downings at Disneyland in 1976? LOL. They were our real buddies…onstage and off. ad

  132. Joe wrote:

    Ya know, Wade- it gets a little old…every time you perceive someone as disagreeing with you, you turn to belittling them. Read back on your posts, my friend, and see if you agree….

    Did you ever open for the Oaks? Did you ever sit on their bus with them for 2 hours, working on a recording contract, and coming within a whisker of signing with them?

    Well, my brother and I did just that.

    One night, we opened for them. Just us and them. We were about 60 miles from our home. Believe me- NO ONE came there to hear us! I had just received that day, from the Wurlitzer company, a brand-new demo electronic keyboard- one of the very first. It had leg extensions, and I played it standing up.

    Tony Brown (Tarzan), was enamored by it, and asked us if they could use it too, and of course, we said “yes”.

    As my brother and I were heading to the backstage for the concert to start, William Lee came up to us and asked us if we could provide him a list of our songs that night. I pulled it out of my coat pocket, and he looked at it in silence. Then, he took a pen and said “Well, you’re not singing this one, this one, this one, this one, and especially not this one.” I said “OK sir- but why not?” He said “we are singing those songs tonight, and you boys are not. Especially THIS one (Redemption Draweth Nigh), because it’s my solo.” So, in the midst of the ending of his solo, as he was preparing to belt out the tag, he pounded on my new piano, and it went totally dead. He had knocked the whole circuit board out of commission. Duane asked for us to come up and try to fix it- I had not even had the time to take it apart yet…and long story short, their planned wonderful first-half ending fell completely flat, and both we and they had to haul up an old piano for the second half.

    His arrogance was amazing. On top of that, they rolled in with two loaded buses. One for band and equipment; two, the Oaks with their ladies of that evening (NOT their wives). There were 1000 people in the building, and another 1000 outside, who could not get tickets to get in.

    I’m not saying that other groups did not give them a hard time. Many did. But I can tell you- the Oaks brought most of it upon themselves. Their long hair, scruffy outfits and appearances, the carousing of their band members, their behavior off of the stage and in their buses, was a far, far cry from what Smitty Gatlin and Herman Harper ever envisioned.

    Not too long after that, my brother and I sat with them on their bus outside of a sing at a high school in New Jersey. They were the only ones there, and the place was packed out. We worked on details of a recording package with them for a long time, and almost signed- something just didn’t feel right to me. We didn’t sign, and a few weeks later, they declared their allegiance to country music.

    It is not all as you say. To the end, at least in some places, they did very, very well. Most of the criticism they took, was brought on by themselves and their behavior, and was well-deserved. They are still remarkable talents. It is just really sad that for all these years, they have not been using their talents as they could have, for the Lord.

  133. Wade wrote:

    Dr. Joe… was not belittling you just trying to draw ya out of all THE MYSTERY… have not had time to dissect your last thread except to see ya say that… will be back with more later… but there are quite a few ppl on hear that have had similar experiences to mine… heck even QMAN!!!

  134. Wade wrote:

    Dr. Joe…

    OK… I have read your post now and have time.

    First, any belittling was brought on by self important bragging with little to back it up besides your statement. Making everyone’s opinion seem wrong with yours being the the only truth and every one else stupid. Typical though for a Doc. If it is only opinion…frame it as such. Then when you did back it up I have to say…THANKS for HELPING ME MAKE MY POINT!!!

    Dr. Joe if you count the time you spent on some one’s bus in HOURS… I appreciate you in helping me make my point. That really makes you nothing more than a MARK. Not much above the women that were on that bus. You were on there for THEM to SELL YOU SOMETHING!!! That’s not a big deal. But I have no doubt you were sincere in your visit… EDDIE CROOK was not in that BiZ YET!! lol

    If playing on the same stage and setting on a bus makes you important or your opinions more correct and has the effect of changing history… then we should just shut this [Edit] down and allow me to write and tell every one how to think & feel!!! LoL ;-) :-)

    Oh yeah… The Oaks sold out many places…which is why Goodman’s were so jealous… and did what they did to eliminate them as competition. Glad you admitted they did sell out venues at some point, again helping me make my point.

    Sorry that they messed up the keyboard. But does not seem that they did it on purpose.

    “Their long hair, scruffy outfits and appearances”…were the common dress of the day for many entertainers… (Someone recently on the JASON Thread going called it THE HOBO LOOK… another poster made the same point I just did.)…. Maybe it’s not OK in the sanctimonious world you live in… but hey they have done OK in the end. Never been to their concerts they did not sing gospel music and have a positive word. Making them the act that has sang gospel music in front of the most ppl if that could be discerned accurately. Elvis & The Stamps probably on the same list.

    As far as the way they behaved, the very ppl I am banging here, Sanctimonious Christian Performers, I have smoked the killer weed with those kind of performers band members in the woods behind a venue…(RUSTY had a great band too in the last years)…oh AND with some of those very kinds of performers ON THEIR BUS. But yet they were the very ppl going around earlier judging others.

    The back of one groups bus regularly had so much smoke coming out of the rear exhaust fan it appeared a NEW POPE had been elected. But they would go out every night and shout and HAVE CHURCH!!!

    Yes Vestal mellowed a little over the years when many of the PPL she LOVED ended up being some of the biggest drug users, homosexuals & womanizers on the face of God’s Green Earth.

    Someone tell me if I am wrong. But weren’t the Goodman’s on just about every Gaither Video except the Oak Tribute and the Cathedral’s Tribute The ORB’s were on??? Seems they were together on a REGULAR video once but always thought it was funny they did not appear much together later later. But Vestal loved Michael English, Larry Gatlin & George Jones when it was convenient and they were in NO DANGER OF being supplanted as The Queen.

    I do stand up comedy and have not only sat on Ron White’s Bus, but have spent the night on it. That does not make me funny. He was not even trying to SELL ME A RECORDING CONTRACT.

    I have vacationed in the Caribbean with Duane. I have spent DAYS with Don Breland’s family. That does not mean my opinion counts any more than any one else’s. IT REALLY does not allow me to rewrite history and make it true despite reality. Which is what it appeared you were doing.

    I even have the Music Minister of a Future Mega Church on my side. I wanna help him do it. I have banged on him unmercifully… but he has thick skin and a sense of humor and does not take things so personally.

    I admitted on here that I have learned things from your theological writings. Even as judgmental as they are. But when I say The Oaks were forced out the Gospel Music Door to go country, do not then blame it ALL on them and give passes to the jealous, judgmental, backstabbing ppl who were as BIGGA SINNERS than the OAKS and held the door open for their exit after yelling FIRE!!!

    Yes, The Oaks may have done things wrong, but the life’s they lived were not worse than The Goodman’s.

    I think you have even said before it is OK to judge ppl if a person lives THAT kinda good life and have said it is NOT OK if a person does not live the GOOD LIFE… believe me… The Goodman’s did not live well enough to pass the kinda judgment they did.

    Despite your Brother or who ever rode the Goodman Bus one summer as a product slinger and had a picture made in front of an APPLE TREE!! That does not make his opinion count more that others. Adam & Eve got in trouble in front of an APPLE TREE!!! LoL;-)

    So Dr. Joe, my friend, I love ya. If something is JUST an OPINION obviously frame it that way, & try not to be SOOOO JUDGMENTAL doing it!!! You are better than that!!! Leave it to God, He can handle it ALL… HE LIVED the GOOD LIFE!!!

    Still Missing Old Harry Peter’s, LeeBob, CVH, SGFan, NoN & Cliif C. Also still waitin’ on old John Masters to decode some of his brief uninspired comments about me. Come on John let’s go… I can take it. QMAN and I have thick skin, broad shoulders, a sense of humor and the ability to stand up to idiots. QMAN even stood up to me!!! LoL :-) ;-) ;-) So come on Johnny Boy…bring it!!!!

  135. Joe wrote:


    It will be pointless to continue this, as you have your mind made up, and so do I.

    All I know is, regardless of the wrongs done to the ORB’s by other groups, the vast majority of what came around, was started around by them, themselves.

    You may say all you wish about the Goodmans. Their lifestyles did NOT match those of the Oaks. They were never seen, time after time, getting off their bus with companions other than their spouses.

    Again, in your eyes, I am one of those who are “sanctimonious”, “judgmental”, and “theological”. Sorry, Wade- but you must know that there are many who take this Christian living thing very, very seriously. 11 times in Scripture, God commands His people to “BE HOLY”.

    It might surprise you to know that there are many, myself included, who realize that our lives have been redeemed from the slavemarket of sin, by precious blood; and that purchase has demanded we give our lives totally back to Him. That means to live far apart from the world, as far as we possibly can.

    The Talleys sing it. It’s called “His Life for Mine”. The Booth Brothers also sing it. It’s called “Crucified with Christ”.

    Reading your page, has caused me to understand just how far apart is the life I am trying to live, compared to the one you seem to be living. This means we will most likely never agree on a thing Scriptural. You have a whole different world view than have I. I am not judging you- that’s not my job. All I am saying is, that on issues like these, we will have views that are in diametric opposition.

    All the best, my friend.

  136. Wade wrote:

    So Dr. Joe…. let’s stipulate that the Oaks were alcoholic womanizers with “long hair, scruffy outfits and appearances”…
    … but YOU will give a pass to the jealous, judgmental, backstabbers, who’s band also used drugs, had fake healings people who were THE Goodmans???

    Yeap… we are far apart!!!

  137. Joe wrote:


    I am not “giving a pass” to anyone. There ARE degrees of sin. Any student of the Bible knows that.

    The Goodmans, the Oaks, you, and I….we will ALL have to answer to God directly, and personally.

    I am saying the Goodmans were not as “bad” as you have made them out to be, and the Oaks were not as “good” as you have made them out to be.

    I have NEVER heard of drugs connected to the Goodmans band- and they backed us up on two albums. My brother stayed with Rusty and Billie many times- and was in Howard and Vestal’s home often. Your characterization of them is unfounded, and done somewhat in ignorance.

    They were so popular, they had no reason to be “jealous” of a soul.

    The Oaks got, in great measure, what they not only deserved, but asked for. Their behavior seemed to be what brought out the resultant behaviors of others.

    There are very few male quartets to this day, who have ever had such an instantly recognizable and excellent sound as have had the Oaks. But as I said, it is sad to think of how they could have used their talents solely for the Lord, over these past 35 years. They are not today what the vision of Wally Fowler, Smitty Gatlin, or Herman Harper ever intended or hoped.

    It is all a matter of perspective, my friend.

  138. Wade wrote:

    Ah yes DEGREES OF SIN… that is usually brought up by the crowd who was WRONGING!!!

    Ignorance & Unfounded???… I was in the woods behind the Ringgold, Ga Civic Center on Hwy 41 with the band partaking.

    Goodman’s not jealous PULEZE!!! Why do you think they did the things they did??? Cause they could stand Toe 2 Toe singing on the merits… ya never heard the Oaks ending a song sounding being described like a controlled or not pig call.

    Don’t get me wrong about the Goodman’s. If they had not been so HOLY & Judgmental about the way others lived and portrayed themselves as SO PERFECT… I would have NO PROBLEM with the theater things they pulled as far as PLANNED DUPLICATE HEALINGS and the other stunts they pulled with the exception of the way they messed with the sound system.

    Face it Dr. Joe you are/were a mark. Not a totally bad thing. I was one of those ppl playing in the studio for Local Yocal Groups who came in to make themselves a PROJECT!!! I played & cut my teeth in one of those groups between the age of 13-16.

    So we do agree one thing… it is all about perspective!!!

  139. Joe wrote:

    So Wade- with a great deal of pride you personally can bring down the Goodmans’ band, simply because you were there, snorting and blowing smoke with the best of them. You should really, really feel proud of yourself, man.

    Like I said, pal- two totally different lifestyles, you and me….

    Backstabbing and jealousy is equal to adultery? Not in the Bible it isn’t.
    Both are wrong. I told you that.

    The punishment for the first sin in the OT is to be taken up by the priest. For the second sin- being stoned to death.

    The punishment for the first sin in the NT is that it is dealt with by the church. The punishment for the second sin is to be excommunicated from the church.

    Sound the same to you?

    Let me give you an example that might help you understand.

    I would get into far more trouble practicing medicine without a license in…say South Dakota, than you would
    get into trouble practicing mortgage brokering or lending activities without a license in…say Georgia.

  140. not beavis wrote:

    Yeah Wade,
    You are so going to burn in a really hot part of hell. Dr. Joe, on the other hand, will have a hard time maintaining his tan - that’s how “cool” his part of hell will be.

    whoops, almost forgot to [insert sarcasm] I coulda ended up right there with you!

  141. Wade wrote:

    LoL;-))) Good one Dr. Joe!!!

    But Nah… I am sure if some one out of your office was responsible for sending the money to the State to pay for the license and it was a clerical error I bet they would treat ya the same. I paid my dues and took the lumps. All for that minor clerical error made in a licensing dept of a lender. If you read some of those postings a little closer you will see some of the BIGGEST BANKS and LENDERS in the WORLD got their hands slapped the same way!!! They were on a mission!!! To me it was almost as bigga badge of honor as you taking the time to look it up!!! lollol

    Least I got the GUTS to put out who I am and not hiding behind a simple first name.

    Maybe you should give some of the ppl that post on the site some lessons in Google(ing)!!

    I have now made it…Dr. Joe has Googled me… I will tell ya some thing else Dr. Joe… look harder you will find more sin in other areas!!

    Must be SLOW LIFE in SD!! LOL ;-) If in fact that is where you are and IF you are really a Doc!!! lol ;-)) Least ya know who I am.

    Love Ya Christian Brother!!! lollol

    That has made my year!!!

  142. Wade wrote:

    # 140 NotBeavis- Yeah be careful… I feel like I am the only one on here calling BS on some of these ppl.

    I have admitted to Dr. Joe I have learned things from him because he always has a verse for EVERYTHING!! Strange we have not had any cites on this subject…just vague examples. I feel certain since I brought it up there will be a few forthcoming. LoL ;-)

    But I never knew if someone sinned it was OK for someone else to sin against the original sinner to point it out and make a big deal out of it to THE SECOND SINNER’S advantage. But Dr. Joe has told me it is an alright thing to do!! lol

    What sect of Christianity is this???

    I admit I am a useless Baptist that believes I am saved by grace and the blood of Jesus and I only have to ask 1 time. I hope Dr. Joe will tell me what he is???

    If anybody has a clue help us out…maybe Old Harry Peters JD can help us out with this dilemma???

  143. Joe wrote:


    You have so misrepresented and misstated what I have written 3 times, I am not going to go over it again for you. I said BOTH are sin; NEITHER are right.

    You asked what I am. I’ll answer with the words of a Perrys song from their “This Is The Day” CD.

    I’m saved! I’m saved! Redeemed and set free-
    No longer a poor sinner lost;
    For between me and the flames of hell,
    Stands the blood of an old rugged cross.

  144. Wade wrote:

    WoW …Dr. Joe… you will not even tell us what sect of Christianity you worship in, reveal yourself and some how you say I misrepresented what you said when I PASTED your own words… unbelievable.

    I am actually too nice to diagnose YOUR ILLNESS!!!

    I actually SAW what kinda man you are in the OPEN thread tonight. I need not say any more!!!

    But be glad…nah your not worth it!!!

  145. Joe wrote:

    OK Wade- this is most definitely IT.

    There ARE no “sects” in Christianity. If you doubt this is how it should be, read 1 Corinthians 1, where Paul makes it explicitly clear that sects and denominations were never God’s intention for His church, and are simply…not to be. I am not in a sect. I meet with a group of Christians that gather as simply as possible, to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ alone, in accordance with the NT pattern of church order. There ARE NO Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Nazarenes, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics, etc. etc. etc. in the Bible. Or had you never noticed that?

    2. Three times, I have told you that both sins (jealousy and adultery) are sin. I have shown you from both Testaments, that even though these are both sins, they were treated totally differently. You never responded to those clear examples. I said they were both wrong, numerous times. If you need the Scriptural references for same, look them up. This was simply to prove that the Oaks were not as “good” as you made them out to be, nor were the Goodmans as “horrible” as you made them out to be. What they BOTH did was sin. The degrees are different.

    3. A few posts above, you wrote this:

    “>>But I never knew if someone sinned it was OK for someone else to sin against the original sinner to point it out and make a big deal out of it to THE SECOND SINNER’S advantage. But Dr. Joe has told me it is an alright thing to do!! lol<<”

    I NEVER said that. Never even came close to hinting at that. Not even remotely close. As I said, you grossly misrepresented and mischaracterized what I said. Those are YOUR words, and were never “cut and pasted” from mine.

    It is YOU who is confused. And I am not going to over this again for you.

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