Open thread

Though I haven’t been around here lately I have been busy and I’m going to take a few off this week, which will prolong the hiatus of regularly scheduled blogging. In the meantime, talk amongst yourselves. Some items to get us started.

  • Eric Phillips has left Mark Trammel Trio.
  • Bob Terrell has died. I learned of this while I was deep in the stacks of the Popular Music Archive, quit literally with Terrell’s book in a stack of references I regularly drew from as I was working. Terrell’s work is not without its problems as history (for instance, I think he centralizes the Vaughan narrative more than the historical record justifies), but his work was part of a first-wave of publications that proved there was a sustainable line of interesting inquiry here, placing him among a small pioneering group of non-specialist writers who essentially invented southern gospel history as a subject of sustained focus. RIP, Bob.
  • I’ve just spent the weekend at an academic conference on the study of religion and American culture, where one recurring theme was how to meaningfully capture the immediacy and experiential (as opposed to documentary) dimension of  lived religion. And then today sitting in the hotel lobby waiting for my car to the airport, I saw this clip from Adam Edwards. It’s the Perrys in Sevierville. You’ll want to watch the entire thing.

And I think I’ll just leave it at that for now.

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Trackbacks & Pings

  1. Selph leaves Assurance « Coomer Cove on 08 Jun 2009 at 9:59 pm

    […] leaves Assurance I read earlier today in a comment that baritone Derrick Selph was leaving Brian Free & Assurance, but could not find any other […]

  2. Gospeleer - The Perrys: Getting It Right! on 24 Jun 2009 at 2:27 pm

    […] was a discussion recently on Averyfineline about whether the Perry’s are “the best” in Southern Gospel. This kind of […]

Comments

  1. GM wrote:

    Praise the Lord….i need to get me some of what was happening at that church.

  2. insider wrote:

    Well, I hate to see Eric leave the road, but why has no one mentioned that Derrick Selph is leaving Brian Free. I guess the economy is hurting alot of these singers, and they’re gonna have to find jobs that make them money.
    As for Living Waters Trio, they have disbanded, and that stinks. They had the makings to be the next Isaacs or equivalent. Powerful talented singing, great ministry, and just seemed to do everything right. They were getting noticed by everyone in a hurry in the industry, and I hate to see this happen to such a great goup of people. Just keep them in your prayers.

  3. James Hales wrote:

    The blonde haired lady who got up and hugged the man was Kyla Rowland…she wrote that song, “Did I Mention” that the Perry’s sang on the video clip.

  4. Leadsinger wrote:

    That video was something to see…

  5. CG wrote:

    Personal preferences aside, I have to wonder; given the size of this congregation, and the traditional mixed group sound of the Perrys, exactly why IS SG losing it’s market? Gaither packs arenas, this particular congregation is enthusiastically worshipping to the sound of the P’s, why is the market in decline?

  6. oldtimer wrote:

    That clip reminded me why I love this music. It defintely confirms my suspicion - there is not group burning diesel today that has the combination of anointing and talent that is displayed here. I am a gospel music cynic (unfortunately)and I sat and wept and rejoiced as I watched. This is the real thing. The Perrys are the real thing. I would travel a great distance and buy a ticket to hear them - I can’t remember the last time I said that about a group. Thanks Perrys and thanks Holy Spirit - I needed what God did for me through this moment.

  7. Brandon Coomer wrote:

    I’m thinking God may use this song to reach a lot of people. We saw the Perrys on 5/24/09 and saw a similar scene as the church in this video. I’ll be posting the video of this song and four other new songs Tuesday (The Perrys asked me not to post any of their new songs until the CD release date).

  8. NonInsider wrote:

    There is also a rumor flying that Frank Seamans is leaving L5… I don’t know how much weight it has… I think it has something to do with his son… To bad Derrick is leaving BFA he has been with them for awhile… And I was just starting to enjoy his singing…Thanks for posting the video I have to say I was Awestruck…

  9. thom wrote:

    Someone had posted this Perry’s video on facebook yesterday morning and I saw it early before getting ready for church. I sat here and “had church” watching it!

    The Perrys are gifted and anointed of the Lord. Tracy is sensitive to the leadership of the Holy Spirit in a service to know what songs to call out - I have witnessed this time after time. He may have an idea what songs they want to do, but I have seen him change direction and do whatever the Spirit is prompting him to do and I have witnessed how the Lord honors that and pours out His sweet presence in the midst of a service.

    I have posted a review of the new Perry’s CD, “Almost Morning”, that this song is on if anyone wants to read it heres the link - http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/notes.php?id=1558626452

    As for personnel changes in groups there are several others in the works right now and one major quartet may be looking at a complete overhaul save the owner/manager.

    Eric Phillips is a great tenor and I know Mark Trammell will miss him. I understand Eric is returning to law enforcement/criminal justice which is what he went to school for and has always wanted to do.

  10. Rob wrote:

    The economy is certainly hurting SG Music. There may be different reasons that people are leaving groups there certainly is a lot of movement in groups going on in June. Most moves happen around NQC time.
    Recent concerts I’ve attended certainly show that attendance is down. This is putting an impact on the groups as well as the promoters. If we don’t support concerts by our attendance you are going to see a lot more favorite people leaving groups and your favorite group might just be the next to disband.

  11. Aaron Swain wrote:

    #9: Is that confirming the personnel changes already mentioned?

    It’s kinda sad to see so many changes all at once. And all of them changes that a lot of us never saw coming, too..

  12. Sensible wrote:

    When you look at the Perrys video on this post, many can remember back to what gospel music used to be all about - the move of God and not entertainment.

    The video was taken at the Pigeon River Revival which is a yearly event. Kyla Rowland hosts this event and holds the meeting at this church (the church may let her have it for 3 days or she may have to rent it; I don’t know.) Nevertheless, the folks that are in attendance are usually not from that church if I were guessing.

    This event is not all about singing. Kyla has men of God with deep convictions to preach at this event as well. Men like Craig Edwards (who wrote “If You Only Knew” by the Inspirations), Pastor Joe Arthur, and Evangelist Dean McNeese.

    I’m sure there are those who come just for the singing, but the majority who go to that meeting are more interested in the move of God. They do not like fluff or showmanship. They go to hear the preaching and they pray God’s hand moves.

    The majority of those in gospel music today would not relate or enjoy being around this group of people. They would say the preachers and those in attendance are legalists. All these preachers I have mentioned are independent Baptists, and holy, Godly living is what they stress.

    Libbi Perry Stuffle was raised around these type of people and these type of meetings (as well as the other Perry members.) Libbi was raised around a preacher named Rance Cane in a little country church called Mill Creek Baptist. Brother Cane would preach the paint off the walls and was a hell, fire, and brimstone preacher. The church had meeting and people were living holy. A meeting like you saw in the video was not an unusual thing, but rather it was the norm and happened often. And guess what? There are meetings like this taking place all over the country still. But you will not read about it in the Singing News, and it is less likely to have a professional SG group on the program.
    That is why the Perrys relate to this audience, and the holy living that is so dominate is why God chooses to show up and bless in a meeting like this.
    That crowd of SG artists who only want to put on a show, hype things up, put out a production full of fluff, and entertain you with their antics and dancing would not have a clue what to do in a meeting like this. As a matter of a fact, they would not be able to handle the preaching.
    This type of meeting used to be the norm at SG concerts. It boils down to this, God has been left out of many SG concerts a long time ago.

  13. MityCats wrote:

    Weeeelllllllllllllllllllllll Glooooooooooooorrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyy!!!

    :-) :-) :-)

    I love Him says it all.

  14. scope wrote:

    I was there when this video was made. As good as it is, it doesn’t convey the magnitude of the Holy Spirit in that church. Yes, that is Kyla Rowland, and the man in the orange shirt she is hugging at about the 6:45 mark is her brother, who had been in the hospital with a serious heart condition just the day before. The Perrys sang this song during their part of the program; then Dr. Craig Edwards began his sermon by asking the Perrys to be ready to sing it again as the altar call. I believe the video was from the altar call. I was hoping Kyla would go up and sing a chorus with the Perrys, but that didn’t happen. Still, this is a service that I will not soon forget.

  15. GM wrote:

    I was at a Ernie H and SS concert. At the end of “Then Came the Morning” the large crowd continued praising and shouting and praying and Ernie immediatly allowed the Holy Spirit to take charge. He pulled the guys together and they sang with just the piano for 30 minutes. Once everyone calmed down he went back to their “planned” song line up. Ernie and the guys were very sensitive to what was happening and even particpated in it themselves.

  16. thom wrote:

    #15 - GM-that is so good to hear.
    # 11 - Aaron - Im not confirming anything at this point just mentioning that i have heard of other significant changes. I will wait for the official announcements from the groups themselves though.

  17. Blake Edmondson wrote:

    This kind of annointing is what so many SG groups are missing today. Very few understand how to use their set to worship in that kind of way. Perrys, Heirline, Primitives, and a few others still do this and that’s why, along with their immense talent, the Perrys are the #1 group in America. Other groups should get on their face before God and beg him to give them the annointing and power that the Perrys have.

  18. Aaron Swain wrote:

    #16: Got it. That answers the other question I had as to whether there were any forthcoming announcements. Thanks.

  19. Sam wrote:

    I know this has been debated a lot here and elsewhere but to the beginning comment of #12; ” When you look at the Perrys video on this post, many can remember back to what gospel music used to be all about - the move of God and not entertainment.”

    Historically speaking, right or wrong, it was all about entertainment in the very beginning of what we now know as SGM. Bro Hovie (and I loved the Statesmen so this is not a complaint) put more of the Spirit type / preaching atmosphere into the genre. May be you didn’t mean in the very beginning ;D

    I personally go to hear SGM for the entertainment and to Sunday worship for preaching, just a personal preferennce. If there are other benefits I guess I would get those as well!

  20. Debbie wrote:

    I hate to hear about Living Waters Trio. Their song Hands Like Mine that Sheri Easter is on is great.

  21. scope wrote:

    Historically speaking, SG music (specifically quartet singing) started out being about selling song books. I go for entertainment, AND to worship. It is possible to have both. Group such as the Perrys know how to incorporate both.

  22. Extra Ink wrote:

    #12 (Sensible), I am with you. You are absolutely right in that many groups on the road today would become disoriented in that particular type service. Thanks for the history lesson on Libby’s church background I did not know that that was her story. It is also the heritage of Troy Peach. His grandfather was Bro. Bobby Shelton, an old-fashioned Missionary Baptist preacher, so Troy has been around that type of service a lot also.

  23. AnnD wrote:

    I’m a little uncomfortable with the line of thinking that says the service must be “like this” to be an effective and powerful move of God…as much as I love these more “expressive” moves. If we’re not careful we will feel “defeated” if the Spirit doesn’t move like this and wonder what we’ve not ‘done right’….and thus the temptation to sorta wanna “make it happen?”. We just haven’t yet been able to put Him in a box. Soooo, needless to say, some of these posts are a bit harsh and judgmental for me…just another opinion…..however, I’m not taking a thing away from the Perrys.

  24. easy now . . . wrote:

    Thanks Sam. You took some of the words right out of my mouth. If people think the Perrys are not entertaining, then they have never seen Tracy do the chain saw! Come on folk. Lighten up. Surely you don’t think that Jesus was incapable of being an entertainer???? If His miracles were not entertaining, nothing is! Some of you think we have to mourn and groan all the time. Jesus said, “I come to give life. LIFE TO THE FULL!” It is not an either / or situation. How many emcees lie to the audience by saying “we’re here for one reason, and one reason only - to see a soul saved”

    The real reason is they hope to sell enough product to make it to the next opportunity to sing and share their faith. To have a laugh and sing a song, and hopefully be real enough for someone to see (yes, see, not hear) the difference Christ made in their lives.

    The Pidgeon revival is super to see and hear. But so are the most polished entertainers in SG. We are all parts of the body. And we all must work together. So don’t blast the business by grumbling that this is the “annointing” that groups are missing. Jesus doesn’t need any armchair Simon Cowells to adjudicate.

  25. heath wrote:

    Anyone heard news about Ron Blackwood’s group? The young kid singing bass left them to go be a minister, and they hired Harold Gilley to fill the spot. It was on their website and all. Then Ron found out the young kid really went to sing with his local group again. Ron had a five year contract on him, and called the boy and said he would sue him if he didn’t come back and honor his contract since he lied to Ron. He also has to move up to Pigeon Forge. The other tid bit of info, is that, allegedly, his girlfriend is expecting her first child with the young bass singer. You can verify this information with the owner of the local group he was with, Hope’s Journey. She is telling it all. I heard about it at a concert at the Georgia Mountain Center a week ago.

  26. Rob wrote:

    An announcement has been made by Brian Free that Derrick Selph is leaving Asssurance to go to school to become an electrician. July 5 will be Derrick’s last day with the group.

  27. NonInsider wrote:

    There are more coming… stay tuned

  28. weber wrote:

    The Perrys, the #1 group in America? I think the GVB, Booth Brothers, Legacy 5, and EHSS might have something to say about that. And how many Gaither videos have the Perrys been featured on? Lets be honest here folks, the line-up the Perrys have right now is not the strongest as in resent years however they do have a knack for getting good songs. When it comes right down to it,, its about the song.

  29. redhead wrote:

    27) your right, the Perrys are incredible, but they have nothing on groups like GVB, EHSS.

  30. Brett wrote:

    Why so many changes recently?

  31. Revpaul wrote:

    When it comes right down to it, the Perrys are MY number 1 group and that’s what counts!

  32. Revpaul wrote:

    Oh, I meant to put a great big grin with that comment.

  33. Michael McIlwain wrote:

    AnnD makes a very insightful point about putting God in a box. While these wonderful, expressive moves of God in a congregation are powerful and deeply moving, we must be careful to not try and duplicate things that only God can truly produce. A gospel singing group will do well to hone their singing talent, use solid and even innovative arrangements, stay in the Word so that they might be intimately familiar with God and His Holy ways, be people of prayer, and then go out and sing to the best of their ability. Sometimes God is going to show up in a powerful way and at other times the concert might even seem to be “dead.” However, even in the “dead” concert truth will be shared that will impact the listener and edify him or her. Plus, if the singing group has been faithful, then God is always going to honor faithfulness

    Jesus said in John 3 that the Spirit moves like the wind and you can’t know actually where the wind or the Spirit is going. When He blows in mightily, enjoy the showers of blessing. When He doesn’t, don’t despair. Keep on serving and worshiping Jesus.

  34. JulieBelle wrote:

    Boy this was right on target…to me, not because of the response it elicited (although that was refreshing to see), but because the song was powerful and Tracy was wise in the handling of the encore. While it was done many times, it didn’t seem overdone to me. Very touching…wish more singers could be flexible and open to something impromptu, whether an encore or a take-off into an old hymn that’s related in meaning.

  35. JulieBelle wrote:

    By the way, I believe people want to see more of the Spirit moving (like in the video) and have witnessed singers not being open and sensitive to this kind of movement. It’s not harsh or mean to say that. There was no ugliness in this post that I saw.

    It also has to do with song choice. This was a powerful song. Lyrics and a genuineness from the singer will do it every time. Many can’t pull it off because it’s not real and we, the audience can pick up on that every time as well.

  36. NonInsider wrote:

    I have to agree with weber… The Perry’s while a very solid group is not the “Best” group in America… They do seem to come up with some very good songs… And Like Weber said that makes a LOT of difference… It also helps when you have a songwriter in the group…

  37. NonInsider wrote:

    29. I think it has alot to do with the way the economy is… and alot of these younger singers are getting married and suddenly realizing they would rather be at home with their wives(and Kids if they have any) than out on the road 250 dates a year…

  38. Buttercup wrote:

    How about #1 mixed group? can you go along with that? I’m sure that influences which songs are pitched to them, and it doesn’t hurt to have access to all of the Daywind writers also - though they proved on their last album that going out of that safety zone also works, it really is about the song, and the Spirit, and the hard work, and the faithfulness, and the talent, and the ….

  39. Tony Watson wrote:

    #27 - are you saying that the number of Gaither videos a group is on is some barometer of success?

  40. jbb wrote:

    #26:”More Coming”.
    So are we gonna say “Boy, I didn’t see that coming”?
    My opinion and mine only is this, I don’t think it gets any better than the Perry’s. I enjoy alot of other groups and there are groups I wouldn’t walk down the street to hear. I think Gaither has truly missed it by not having the Perry’s on his DVD”s. He truly needs to do something different as the DVD’s all sound alike and repeat alot of songs. I stopped buying them because of that.
    None of this is said to be harsh, just my personal opinion and we all have one.

  41. scope wrote:

    I think we are putting a lot of responsibility on the singers for the moving of the Holy Spirit. I believe the audience has a part in it also. I’ve been in services where the artists have given their heart and soul, but the audience sat like stones. Why would God want to show up there? As I said earlier, I was at the revival where the video was made. I promise you that the people in the seats were ready and waiting for a move af God. I’m not taking anything away from the Perrys. Tracy did a wonderful job of letting the service flow at the Lord’s leading. I’m just saying that we as an audience should participate if we want it to be a worship service, and not just entertainment.

  42. sorrysocynical wrote:

    A “move of God’ in these days must certainly be much different than the “move of God’ that was initiated in Acts chapter 2. It is my understanding, that this church, or the majority of this congregation is “Baptist”, who fundamentally believe that the apostolic power in the Holy Ghost demonstrated in the book of acts died with the last apostle. (which certainly did not happen)

    Is a move of God REALLY a group of talented people performing a very impactful song while a person prays at an altar andpeople Shout with a voice of terror instead of triumph?? THIS is a move of God?? THIS is revival???

    Its very hard for me as a Pentecostal-Holiness believer to equate this with “A move of God’. I have personally seen cancers fall off, paralysis removed, drug addicts and alcoholics instantly set free, gifts of prophecy operating with an on-point word to people through Holy Ghost filled believers……I have seen salvation come to people in drastic fashion with overwhelming evidence of that salvation through the change of life that came thereafter, and I have been a witness of the undenyable miracle working power of God that works IN AND THROUGH the Holy Ghost filled believers. SO THIS VIDEO..though talented, and impactful, and emotional…….is it REALLY a move of God?? Does it at ALL resemble the book of Acts??? Or is it merely a well-written song “Hitting the Spot” in our hearts that loves those power-ballad SG songs. (4 days late, through the fire)

    My Lord…if THIS is a move of God….our world has NO hope of a renewal.

    Bye. :)

  43. Tim wrote:

    The Perry’s are great people and I am proud for them. They are as consistent as anyone out there. I have to agree with Ann D. there are no two services alike and they are not all “bench jumping” services. You never know what is happening in someone’s heart.

  44. jonathan edwards wrote:

    #41 Let me start out by saying I disagree with you as a baptist in doctrine so I won’t there but may I ask why you think a move of God is defined by the book of acts. If I read my Bible correct God is seen moving in a lot of diffrent ways not all can be found in acts. You might want to read the rest of the scripture there are some great things in there.

  45. weber wrote:

    #44, This will be my pleasure. As a spirit-filled Baptist minister, I must say to you that God is not limited by a single denomination as your own. God moves and works in mysterious ways, ways not always known to man. All through scripture we find the “Spirit” held many responsibilites and moved and acted in ways we do not alwasys see in the church today. If you think for a minute that you are more “spiritual” than those who do not “speak in unknown tongues”, you my brother are confussed.
    The spirit moves as the wind blows, and the wind blows where it wants to. God himself is the only one who can control and direct the wind. I will say that the Spirit does not need to speak against those whom have not shared in a super-natural experience. The reason that most baptist do not operate in the “gifts of the supernatural” is because of arrogant apostolic believers as yourself, continue as in many years past to condemn, negate, and insult those who have not shared in the experience. Rather than proclaim ownership of the gifts of the spirit, why not teach in a loving way that there may be more for the beleiver than water baptism.

  46. Michael Davis wrote:

    Well sorrysocynical #41 your comments are so twisted and obviously anti-Baptist they really do not deserve a response. But if you are so proud of who you are as a Christian, why are you masquerading behind an anonymous name?

    Jonathan Edwards #43 you are so right on the money.

  47. Debbie wrote:

    I’m a member of a Southern Baptist church and a “sweet” little woman who’s husband pastors the apostolic church here where I live pretty much told me if I wasn’t apostolic that I wouldn’t make it to heaven. Talk about a narrow minded bunch of people. I know in my heart that I’m a born again Christian, and I also know that my denomination is not what is going to take me to heaven, but its the blood of Jesus that is.

  48. Blake Edmondson wrote:

    #41, sorrysocynical, I’ll not bash you (though I’d like to, that is flesh speaking). However, you are COMPLETELY misinformed about fundamental baptists. I am one and happily can tell you I’m “filled with the Holy Ghost.” You might want to try going to a baptist church and seeing for yourself. At my church, we have a whole family who used to be Holiness and really had their eyes opened that God’s miracle-working power doesn’t just happen in Holiness churches. I’ve seen the same type miracles you described happen in my church in the last year. One lady had cancer and went to the doctor and it was gone after we annointed her with oil and laid hands on her as the book of James tells us to. We don’t believe that miracles ended with the apostles but that the power of the Holy Spirit still works miracles today.

  49. Just Thinking wrote:

    Although I enjoyed the video, and can see that many people are quite moved by this type of demonstration, I have to say that some people (myself included) could be quite distracted by the screaming and moving around. Unfortunately, I think I would find myself focusing on the people around me, rather than worshiping God as I should. This is just my own distractability. I am not criticizing this type of service, only saying that the Holy Spirit ministers to people according to their need. That is why there are different styles of worship, and each is valid if it draws hearts to Him.

  50. Brenda Denney wrote:

    I have been raised in Pentecost my entire life. I will be the first to say that in these days most Pentecost churches do not know what a “MOVE” of God is. They would not be able to handle a move like there was in the Upper Room. # 1 reason it would interfere with the agenda. We go into all denominational churches and present the Gospel in song. I will also say that the Baptist churches are allowing a “MOVE” of God more than the Pentecost today.
    There are a lot of Pentecost churches have become complacent (self-satisfied).
    I LOVE this video of the Perrys.. The Holy Spirit is there.. He is moving. People are being touched, set free, loosed, and Gods Love is in the room.
    We all need to forget the “Denomination” and worship him. I hate to be the one to tell you this but there is not going to be a Pentecost corner and a Baptist corner in heaven.. WE will worship together for ever.. Perrys’ - you are so anointed.. As a Pentecost Girl I am so proud of you all.

  51. Yeah... wrote:

    #41: How amazing. Yours was the treatise of the kind of Christian whose understanding of, and practice of the New Testament begins and ends with Acts 2. A further search will show you that there are actually 27 books in the NT. They all contain doctrines essential for Christian living, the Gospel, and believe it or not, the same Holy Spirit that folks like you think that they own unique license to. Surprisingly, He comes to indwell every single one of us at the moment of salvation. The Acts is unique in that it is a historical book, detailing roughly the first 30-33 years of the New Testament church. Believers matured after that, grew in grace and knowledge, and the church of Jesus Christ was disseminated to become a worldwide force. Acts 2 details the advent of the Holy Spirit. His work has been evident ever since, and if you couldn’t see that at work in that video, then frankly, I feel sorry for you.

  52. Lisa wrote:

    #41–I think this is why I am such a fan of I Corinthians, chapters 12 & 13. It outlines that there are many gifts, and many ways in which people serve God and possess the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

    I’ve had folks tell me that because I did not speak in tongues that I wasn’t truly a Christian. I’ve also been told –as I brought food from The Society of St Andrew–that I was the answer to an elderly woman’s prayers.

    I just say that God is God, and it’s HIS business as to what gifts He gives each of His kids. He’s bigger and smarter than I am.

  53. insider wrote:

    #17, you’re right about the primitives and some other groups, but way off on the perrys. I can think of about 15 more or so better groups.
    #37perrys the best mixed group, opinions are great and all, but that’s just absurd, ever heard of the Hoppers? Jeff and Sheri Easter?
    And everybody, yes the Gaither videos can decide some extent of success, but an even better barometer is artist who actually do the shows. Alot of people on the videos have never been on the shows. The reason a group like the perrys will never be on there, is let’s face it, anyone in the business know’s Tracy is a jerk, he thinks Joseph is God’s gift to southern gospel, and he’s great, I’ll give him that, but far from what Tracy thinks he is. He couldn’t tie Mike bowling’s shoes, or for that matter, Lauren Harris’s, well, here again I can think of probably 40 or so singers that could eat him for lunch. And I’m trying to be as nice as I can, but you can tell FANS from people in the business, because fans will talk about how great a people the perrys are, and people in the business will tell you the truth.

  54. JoJo wrote:

    #40 Scope: It was way overdone for me. I can’t imagine sitting though 9 minutes and 45 seconds of one song of any group. I’ll take Signature Sound around the piano for thirty minutes any day. I could be inspired, spiritually moved, and entertained all at the same time. I agree with AnnD.

  55. JulieBelle wrote:

    Tim…while I agree that not every service has to be the same and a “benchjumping” service as you called it, I’ve seen a few artist multiple times (into the double digits) in various denominational settings and never seen the slightest variation in their program or a sensitivity to needing to do an encore (because they don’t have it on a track). It almost seems at times if people get too vocal for their comfort zone, they do something else to settle them down. That’s not always wise.

  56. christy wrote:

    thanks for the perrys clip. i needed that today. “i wish i could have been there”

  57. Just wondering wrote:

    How many of you who found the clip of the Perrys so moving would complain if a praise and worship song were repeated that many times?

  58. AnneTOSorrySo wrote:

    Sorrysocynical

    I am sorry you’re so cynical.

    I too am an Apostolic Holiness Pentecostal and all the other terms you would like to use.

    But if there is one thing I’ve learned in my years is that you don’t criticize when God is moving on people no matter what the denom. You rejoice and pray for continued leading of his Spirit on thier lives. Christians aren’t here to play judge and jury but to preach the Gospel.

    If we have anything to offer this world as “Apostolics” it will be better offered with a MEEK and HUMBLE spirit.

    God Bless and pour out his Holy Ghost on the “good Baptists” as well as “all flesh” as He has promised in His Word. And that may that Spirit be free to lead and guide.

    ApostolicAnne

  59. Wade wrote:

    It’s Ann Downings Birthday if you have Facebook go wish her a Happy Birthday!!! She’s still HOT!!!

  60. Seaton wrote:

    #53, I have also seen groups on more than one occassion try to illicit the same response from a crowd on the same song. That doesn’t always work. Don’t try to force the same reaction on a particular song every night when you’re not working the same crowd every night.

  61. A Friend of A Friend wrote:

    I’ve known Lib for probably longer than anyone else has in the industry. She (and her family) are far from perfect, and have had many struggles and trials over the years. But you know what? They always strive to live as close to Christ as any family I’ve ever seen. That close walk with The Lord is the reason He tends to frequently bless their efforts. But, that could happen with ANY group that desired His visitation! And, no, this kind of outpouring of The Holy Ghost doesn’t happen at every concert - as it is not a contrived, routine part of the show. But, when He graces the venue with His presence, I assure you that He is heartily welcomed by The Perrys. The truth is, though, that what happened on that video has very little to do with The Perrys. And they are OK with that. The out there problem is, that there are some groups that can’t handle the emphasis being placed on Him, and not them…

  62. A Friend of A Friend wrote:

    sorry… that last line should read: “The problem is, that there are some groups out there that can’t handle the emphasis being placed on Him, and not them…”

  63. matt wrote:

    Re: the Perry’s, it was indicated that we would want to watch the whole thing. Well I did, and I kept on waiting for something really special to happen, beyond seemingly endless repetition, and acappella versions. I watched the whole thing. They milked it until it was dry,and a bit sore……….they should’ve stopped at about 5min.

  64. J. Bazzel wrote:

    Insider # 52 said:
    “And I’m trying to be as nice as I can, but you can tell FANS from people in the business, because fans will talk about how great a people the perrys are, and people in the business will tell you the truth.”

    And unlike Insider, REAL professionals in the industry would never go on a public website and speak condensendly toward fans or speak ill of ANY artist, even if it were true. There’s some truth for you pal. Just saying…

  65. Blake Edmondson wrote:

    #52 insider,
    you are obviously an “outsider” to believe such things. You proved it by thinking “Lauren” (hehe) Harris is still with the Perrys. If you are going to be so bold as to talk bad about a group, and in this case specific people, you shouldn’t be a wuss and hide behind an ambiguous name. Tell us who you are because you called out Tracy by name. I know Tracy personally and you are the only person I’ve ever heard call him a jerk.
    BTW, to everyone…the technical definition of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is to say that a move of the Holy Spirit is/was not real. Some of you are walking pretty close to that line.

  66. Ron F wrote:

    Tracy Stuffle a Jerk? No way #52 , I dont know where you guys crossed at some point. The Perrys are a class act. And they are blessed, to have released some of the best songs in SG Music.

  67. DeeAnnBailey wrote:

    Wow haven’t been to this site for a while but the attitudes always cause me to shake my head. First, I am a Perrys fan and friend, don’t deny it. Second, I know a number of folks in the ‘business’ fairly well and here is the only place I’ve ever heard Tracy called a jerk. I’ve heard others called that by folks in the business but not him. I would say that all of us have days or times we might do things that appear to others that way. He’s human, one of those is possible.

    Joe is an awesome, talented singer. Is he be the best ever.. depends on who you ask. But not fit to tie Mike Bowlings shoe laces, first I doubt that Mike needs anyone to do that. But if he did, I’m not sure what you feel the special qualifications for that would need to be, it might be interesting.

    I love services like what was on YouTube but I’ve also felt the spirit in much quieter more sedate services as well. Not trying to put God in any box but services like this are special. With the reaction of the people in the service had Tracy stopped singing it would have changed the order of service so I believe he did exactly what he should have.

    I don’t have a problem with folks not liking the Perrys because we all have our opinions but I do have a problem with some making personal attacks that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

    If you truly have a problem with Tracy(or Joe), be a man (or woman) of your convictions and got tell him in person what you think. That is what the scriptures say isn’t it, ‘first you go, then you take a brother if that doesn’t solve it’. Novel thought but maybe God had a good plan there.

    I know blogs and the internet give you the freedom to say what you want without the consequences that might follow if you said something like ‘Yeah, my name’s Mike Blank and this is my opinion of the Perrys. ” Your friends or family might see, the Perrys might know you but you would at least be standing behind what you said.

    Having the freedom to do something doesn’t necessarily mean it is the right thing to do, especially not from a Biblical standpoint. But if you aren’t concerned with that, then I guess nothing else I say will make a difference either

    Just food for thought,very few people remain sheltered under the screen names forever so posting only what you would be comfortable posting under your own name can save you a lot of back peddling if who you are turns out to be someone that has a reason for not posting this type of thing under their own name.

  68. Jim McComas wrote:

    I don’t normally get on websites like this, and after reading some of the ridiculous comments on this thread I can see why. It cracks me up to see people analyzing this video in relation to Academic studys on Religion in America, questioning if such behaviour is unbecoming to a professional Gospel Group, questioning whether the Perrys were “milking” the song for too long, blah blah blah blah etc.etc.

    May I just make a few simple observations:

    * Anyone who makes negative observations about someone (Like calling someone a “jerk”) and feels SO STRONGLY about those comments that they decide to bravely stand behind them by signing an anonomous name to them, is completely insignificant to the discussion and should not be taken seriously. (I am reminded of the story of Evangelist D.L. Moody being handed a note one night on stage that had one word written on it: “FOOL”. Rev. Moody went to the pulpit and said, “Ladies and gentleman, I have received many notes in my ministry from folks who wrote and then didn’t sign their name, but tonight is the first time I have had someone sign their name and fail to write any note!”)

    * No, I don’t feel like every Christian has to worship like the folks in this video do, but I get weary of judgemental, arrogant people who are eager to criticize such worship instead of thanking God that there are still some of God’s people who are not ashamed to publically praise the Lord! When we quit standing back and analyzing how the Spirit works, and instead let the Spirit analyze us, THEN we’ll be on the road to Revival in this country, and in Southern Gospel Music!

    * As a Pastor, Promoter, Singer and Songwriter here in Northeast Ohio for more than 20 years, I have worked with many of the biggest names in Southern Gospel: I’ve had many at our Church, mc’d concerts with many, sang on the same programs with many, and I can tell you this: There is no full time group singing today that I have ever dealt with who are easier to work with and LESS pretentious then The Perrys. They are the real deal, and a blessing to be around both on and off the stage. Believe me, I can not and would not say that about everyone I have worked with.

    * The most ironic thing about this discussion to me is that there is so much petty squabbling and back biting about a video of a song that so beautifully and powerfully lifts up and glorifies our Precious Saviour. I would suggest some need to go back , watch the video again, and LISTEN TO THE WORDS OF THE SONG. In the end, isn’t that what its all about anyway?

    Oh, and by the way, I am

    Pastor Jim McComas
    Canaan Free Will Baptist Church
    Creston, Ohio

  69. Wade wrote:

    Pastor Jim… one simple word… AMEN

  70. matt wrote:

    # 67, You claim to be weary of judgement and arrogance, yet your post contains numerous judgements in it, and one could come to the conclusion that there is a hint of arrogance there as well. In my opinion the Perry’s sang the song too long, without enough variation, and there was excessive and distracting audience noise. One could argue it was worship, or it was just emotional clanging of gongs and cymbals.

  71. Alan wrote:

    Pastor Jim, one word repeated again: Amen. Fabulous post.

    I’ve worked with The Perrys, and seen them many other times. How anyone can say that Tracy is a jerk is beyond me. He and Libby are the real deal; down to earth, humble, and have servants hearts. The folks they’d hire would have to represent their values.

    Hiding behind your silly name, Insider, and writing what you did, is cowardly. Also unscriptural. Your credibility took such a hit as to be nil.

  72. Lydia wrote:

    #52 insider. you wrote… “anyone in the business know’s Tracy is a jerk, he thinks Joseph is God’s gift to southern gospel, and he’s great, I’ll give him that, but far from what Tracy thinks he is. He couldn’t tie Mike bowling’s shoes, or for that matter, Lauren Harris’s”

    First of all, like another writer said, if you were that much of an insider you’d know how to spell Loren’s name!

    Second, I AM an insider of sorts so let me share with you two “inside” comments so you’ll actually feel like an insider….

    After Loren left the group, the following NQC, he went into the arena to listen. Afterwards, I personally heard him tell Joseph, “Man, you’re a better lead singer than I’ll ever be!” To which I heard Joseph respond arguing and making self-effacing comments because of his regard for Loren’s talent.

    Recently at a Perrys concert, Mike Bowling told me personally, “I just had a guy ask me recently: what’s an artist in this industry, ideally, supposed to be? I told him, ‘Joseph Habedank…look at Joseph Habedank; he’s got the total package.’ ”

    Now… if you’re truly an insider you’d know what this term means: you may say, “well they were just ‘quartetin’ ‘ okay… then i guess you just accused Mike Bowling and Loren Harris of flattery, pretention and insincerity.

    Tracy has more character and integrity in his little finger than you have in your whole body.

    As someone said, why don’t you face Tracy and Joseph personally with your words?… surely as an “insider” you have their cell numbers, right???

  73. Dusty B wrote:

    I was told by a friend to come hear to watch a video of a recent Perry’s concert where the spirit “showed” up. As I watched I not only was blessed, but I could tell the feeling of both artist and audience was truly genuine.
    Then I made the mistake of reading the comments. I have been full-time in southern gospel music for 7 years…. It’s up for interpretation as to whether I’ve “made it” but I consider myself very much “in” the industry and good friends with a good deal of artist. My friend, you are speaking about what you do not know if you think Tracy is a jerk, or any of the other ridiculous claims you run on about. I know them, love them, and would risk my career for them because they’ve also stuck their neck out for me when they didn’t have to.
    God does not call the equipped, he equips the called. Whether joe is “the best” or whether the perry’s are the “best mixed group” I guess you’re entitled to your opinion, but there is no doubt that they are annointed. They sing and sacrifice because they are in love with the One they do it for.
    Man, I’ve ranted and I’m sorry. There’s just somethings you need to stand up for.

  74. rr wrote:

    All emcees who wish to truly minister should pray for discernment. The Holy Spirit empowers those who ask. It is unfortunate that true spiritual discernment is not more common.

  75. dd wrote:

    #48 That very night, Dr. Craig Edwards preached right after the Perrys on, the sacrifice of praise. He touched on the fact that everyone worships differently. That we shouldn’t take for grantite or question how they are worshipping, because quite frankly, praise comes from sacrifice. And you don’t know what it cost that person to be able to worship then and that way. I’m a pastor’s son and i dont shout and scream, i’m a crier. But when i get to go to a service, i go because i need to hear and worship for myself. If everyone else is too, all the better! :)

  76. sorrysocynical wrote:

    Its amazing to me how many of you read what you want to read then allow new thoughts to enter your brain that I did NOT say. Read all of this…objectively..

    I never said the movement of God is limited only to Pentecostals..also I never said I was “apolostolic” in the sense that I believe in the “Oneness” doctrine. When I refer to “Apostoilc” I am referring to the gifts and operations that the apostles BELIEVED in and TAUGHT.

    I am not saying God cannot move in baptist, lutheran, catholic, or any other denomination. That has been proven with time. Pentecostalism is not a denomination, it is a personal experience. But I also believe it is the ONLY TRUE movement that will change our world.

    Also, The way God moved in the OLD Testament, is clearly different than the way God moves in the NEW testament which IS the ONLY method for the church Today. The Holy Ghost moves IN US, not “ON US”. I NEVER MENTIONED “Bench-jumping” services, you came up with that one on your own. I’ve never seen a “Bench Jumper” myself. I believe revival is what this world needs, and it is God’s power being manifested IN and THROUGH the lives of believers to bring change to the world they live in.

    Could God move in a service like we see demonstrated with the Perrys?? Yes. I believe he can. Do I believe that THIS is going to be his method in the LAST DAYS to bring lasting and dominate change to our world? NO, I do not. I think this video is a demonstration of how empty we have become in today’s world. The last “Move of God” some of you have seen is Kim Clement spitting on a mic and wagging his hair on TBN…So, this Perry’s concert looks like heaven on earth!!!

    Anti-Baptist? Me? That depends on what part of baptist you’re talking about. I had a young baptist lady join my youth prayer meeting and this young lady TAUGHT by example all the other youth how to pray in that moment. For an hour and a half she did nothing but stay on her knees and intercede. And soul-winning…nobody cares as much as baptists. Look at our “Pentecostals” today on TBN…they arent interested in the conversion of souls, but the contributions of saints. HOWEVER..I believe that the Baptist people have LIMITED The power of God in SO many ways by teaching that the operations of the Holy Ghost DIED with the last Apostle…THERE IS NO EVIDENCE to suggest it…historically, or biblically.

    :) calm down you mean people. :)

  77. sorrysocynical wrote:

    Lets go further..
    Blake Edmonson, You are a rare baptist, most do not agree with the “anointing with Oil, and laying on of hands”. Sorry, look it up. the MAJORITY through history do not practice this.

    Also, I totally disagree with “Apostolic” or oneness doctrine today.

    Things like “You have to be baptized and talked in tongues to make it to heaven” or “if you cut your hair you’re a sinner”, or “If you have facial hair as a man thats considered long hair” ….These are all man’s attempt to traditionalize sciptures that Paul was trying to establish principles and boundries with.

    Also, God is moving through baptists, lutherans, catholics, and many other beliefs…but he wll NEVER MOVE in any way other than what we see in the New Testament. If he did, he would have to inspire a new Bible….

  78. Andrew Gribble wrote:

    Being raised pentecostal, there is nothing greater than an old timey, “benchjumping”, aisle running, speaking in tongues services, but probably one of the greatest services I have ever experienced, was nothing more than people sitting in the pews praying quietly to God and the Sprit ministering to each person. The Spirit was so heavy that no one wanted to move, just to sit and be ministered to. Praise and worship comes in many forms and shows up in many places, many unexpected, but you know when the Spirit shows up, and you don’t need anyone to tell you that it happened. We should not expect every service to be like this or that, but rejoice in the very fact that we can worship as we please on any given day.

    This is an awesome video by the Perrys, and they are probably one of the best groups out there. They don’t need to ride on the Gaither coattails to be great. They do have the annointing behind them, always have, no matter what the makeup of the group. And as long as they allow God to show up in this manner, they will continue to prosper.

    And Bill Gaither has brought Gospel Music to many people that probably would never have experienced it. God uses Bill and the Gaither Homecoming tour in a different way, and that is okay. But I have seen the Holy Spirit show up at Gaither concerts, and BIll knows how to go with it too.

    So let’s enjoy what music we have and still be blessed.

  79. weber wrote:

    #75 I believe you changed your tune a bit, in your first post you catagorically denied the video being a move of God, then you said God moves in other denominations as well. Then you went as far as to say that pentacostalism is the only true move of God. Your bias is very obvious, just a note, you cannot be pentecostal and note believe in the “Oneness” doctrine, which I must say is irrelavent to the word of God. Pentecostals are a denomination. Apostolics are a denomination, even all the little house church branches in our neighborhoods. United Pentecostals are a denomination. Like i stated before, you and the pentecostals you represent are selfish, self-centered, and care nothing about winning the lost. You my friend are nothing more than a sounding brass and tinkling cymbal. I would advise you to read Hebrews chapter 6, move on from the foundational principles of the faith, and please find some maturity in your christian walk.

  80. Markp wrote:

    Anybody know who Gold City is hiring?

  81. scope wrote:

    #69 Matt, you are entitled to your opinion of the video, but I was there and you weren’t. It may have seemed long and unvaried while watching the video, but there were people coming to the altar, and the Perrys were sensitive to the Spirit. I doublt that there was anyone who -I repeat- was there, who would agree with you that it was too long or not varied enough. We were too busy worshipping to notice!

  82. Irishlad wrote:

    I know this is an open thread, so just to change the subject for a mo….i’m a sucker for bass singers mostly sg ’cause that’s where you most often find them,but just recently on youtube i came across these guys(not the Russian choir ones)these boys or rather men are Baroque basses,listen to their timber,range and low notes without the aid of enhanching mics and woofers.Just punch in Baroque bass.Enjoy.

  83. Irishlad wrote:

    Apologies guimaul69 youtube.Scroll down main page to black and white of a guy baroque bass underneath.Sorry i;m crap at that url stuff.

  84. Derek wrote:

    #79 that’s what I’ve been asking…and if anyone knows, they’re not talking!

  85. NonInsider wrote:

    An announcement will come soon from Gold City…

  86. Aaron Swain wrote:

    My guess is, Gold City is hiring Dan Keeton.

  87. sorrysocynical wrote:

    Weber..you’re dead wrong.

    I urge you to study a history of Pentecostalism and Holy Ghost Baptism since his inception in the late 1800’s, and how this movement has effected the world.

    Also, YES YOU CAN be a Pentecostal and not believe in “ONeness”…Trinitarian believers were the first Holy Ghost filled believers in america, and oneness was faught heavily by the early church when it was introudced by a few false prophets about 40 years after the death of the last apostle. If the early church believed in oneness, then stephen wasn’t seeing a true vision from God but a hallucination when he said “I Saw Jesus STANDING “At” which in greek means directly beside, the right hand of the father”.

    I said God “Could” move in a service like this from the Perry’s, but if this IS a move of GOd..we’re in trouble. Because it’s going to take a HECK of a lot more than that to change this world.

  88. DeeAnnBailey wrote:

    Aaron, if I were a gambler I’d put money your guess is wrong. New tenor should be showing up the first of July. :-)

  89. matt wrote:

    I’m curious,,,,,,with all the changes that go on in SG groups, do any of you find that you are loyal to the group regardless of who comes/goes or do you follow individual singers to new groups, and develop new loyalties? For example, I”m a fan of Mark Trammell, so I followed him to GC, but when he left, I lost interest in GC and have been more interested in the MTT.

  90. Wade wrote:

    Anybody that comes on a forum like this and is hypercritical, like I can be sometimes, and do not reveal WHO they are COWARDS and should be ignored!!!

  91. Derek wrote:

    #87 I’m guessing you have inside info?! So is this someone we know or a newcomer like Bruce was/is?

  92. Marj wrote:

    #68 Well done. Think I’ll celebrate and go buy a Perry CD today.

  93. DeeAnnBailey wrote:

    I’m sure they will be making the announcement very soon!

  94. Jonathan Edwards wrote:

    Sorrysocynical,
    Let me say as a Baptist you should stick telling folks what you believe and not what others do. Your comment regaurding that baptist believe the work of the Holy Ghost died with the apostle’s is wrong. We do believe that that the Spirt is the one who works in our lives to do many things, but we also believe that the Spirt it also a part of the Trinity not above the Father or the Son. As far as laying on of hands and annointing with oil it happens all the times in Baptist churches. once again stick to what you believe and your church ( which you have said what your are in the regaurd) and let the Spirt show what is and what isn’t of God.

  95. CVH wrote:

    Holy crap…this is all pretty amazing. Nearly 100 posts on this subject? Wow.

    I have nothing to add, just was thinking, as a change of pace or distraction, Lauren Talley’s hot.

    That’s it.

  96. Tim wrote:

    This was sent out today by the GMA.
    “Effective this week, Billboard’s pan-genre Hot Christian Songs chart transitions to gross audience impressions from plays-based rankings and expands in panel size (from 77 to 93 stations) and depth (from 30 to 50 positions).”

    Has the Singing News ever thought about limiting the SG charts to 50? Just wondering if there had been any discussion on this. It seems if an industry as large as CCM and Billboard is printing a 50 song chart, SG might be better served by considering the same.

  97. Blake Edmondson wrote:

    sorrysocynical,
    I’m pretty sure a baptist minister who has attended baptist churches all of his life would not need a pentecostal to tell him what the baptist church believes. We DO believe in laying on of hands and annointing with oil to “save the sick.” I’d say in typical old-fashioned baptist churches it happens anywhere from every other service to a couple times a month. I don’t have to “look it up” as you say but I know this personally. Again, find you a good old-time missionary baptist church (not the 500+ people mega-churches) and go there and see what you experience. I assure you it will be quite different from what you read.

  98. sorrysocynical wrote:

    Bake And Jonathon…obviously you have never studied the history of modern denominations. YOUR CHURCHES do the laying on of hands…but MOST BAPTIST CHURCES DO NOT..or HAVE not in the last 100 years. Maybe that is evolving and getting widely more popular, but I don’t know.
    also, I never said that Baptists believe the Holy Ghost is dead, I said they believe the operations of the Holy Ghost through the believers (Prophecy, gifts of the spirit) are dead. Hence, the reason prophecies, tongues, and other things are not permitted.

    And..CVH, I have way of getting convo started. Noticed this site was losing fervor, so I thought i’d spice it up.

  99. Irishlad wrote:

    CVH,so was the chick from the 70’s sg trio The Renaissance, v nice,plus she sounded like Karen Carpenter, double nice.

  100. Andrew Gribble wrote:

    Just for the record, there is a Baptist Church in Chattanooga, TN that is 500+ and wait for it…Pentecostal. Pastor Ron Phillips of Central Baptist Church (Abba’s House) is a Spirit-Filled Man of God, and has no problem telling the world.

  101. Buttercup wrote:

    #90 - so I click on your link and it takes me to some kid named alex on facebook.

  102. Linda Dillon wrote:

    I know this is probably going to sound rather elementary and some may sound childlike thinking, but why can’t we just all get along and worship together. I actually am Pentecostal; however, I have no problem going to Baptist and/or other denominations. I take a Bible class at a area Baptist church and go to various activities at all churches. I choose to dwell on the similarities we all have, rather than the differences. We are all worshipping the same God, and if you are a Christian, you are my brother/sister, regardless of our individual differences. I believe we have far more in common that we think; it’s just that we choose to dwell on the one or two issues that set us apart.

    Can’t we all just unify?

  103. cynical one wrote:

    sorrysocynical — The reason you’ve raised so much ire is because your first post was full of stereotypes that were not necessisarily correct. Not all Baptist think/believe/act exactly the same, just as not all Pentecostals think/believe/act exactly the same.

    And your comments about this video not being a moving of the Holy Spirit was SO judgemental, it was ridiculous. Just as God and his workings can’t be put in a box, neither can people groups.

    Please don’t think for a moment that, just because there were no “signs and wonders” in this service, that it wasn’t the Holy Spirit moving. To paraphrase the Bible, the Holy Spirit moves in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform.

    There are MANY good Baptists who realize miracles still happen today, that believe in the laying on of hands and annointing. And the comments about many Pentecostals believing you can’t get to heaven if you don’t speak in tongues is absolutely correct. I had a Christian friend who taught middle school several years ago, and was told by a student that her Sunday School teacher told the class that. I was friends with her pastor, and asked him about that. He promptly let me know he did NOT teach that, and would try to make sure his congregation (especially those in leadership, like teachers) understood the truth.

    I’ve heard too many people talking about having received “THE GIFT”, as if there were only one. I’ve also heard preachers (and others) talking about “seeking the gift of tongues”. I’m not sure I understand the philosophy/theology of “seeking a gift”. My understanding is that spiritual gifts are bestowed at conversion. Either the Lord gives you a particular gift or set of gifts, or he doesn’t. Gifts are not something you ask for, but something you are given, as God deems appropriate.

    And if “seeking a gift” IS a valid concept, why do we not hear of people SEEKING the gift of discernment, the gift of hospitality (showing mercy), the gift of leadership, the gift of service (ministry), the gift of giving, et al. Why do folks seem to be stuck on seeking ONLY the gift of speaking in tongues. Why not seek the gift of interpreting tongues?

    Maybe you could shed some light on this for me. And to be honest, I’m not just being my normally cynical self.

  104. Wade wrote:

    ButterCup… don’t know how that happened…try the link now or since facebook just started giving SPECIFIC URL’s here ya go…

    http://www.facebook.com/fundoctor

    if that does not work… go to facebook and feel free to search by my name… Wade Cardwell…

    Hope all hearts and minds are clear now??… but really if you are gonna get on here and be very critical have enough guts to say who ya are… it is very liberating!!

  105. Brett wrote:

    Is Terah Penhollow still with Crabb Revival?

  106. sorrysocynical wrote:

    I Corinthians 14:12 says “Because you are zealous for spiritual gifts, seek that you may edify the church”.

    1 Corinthians 14:1 says “follow after Love and DESIRE spiritual gifts, and even more so that you have the gift of prophesy”.

    There are gifts of the Spirit that are more beneficial to the church than others. “Speaking in Tongues” and “The Gift of Tongues” are two seperate things. The “Gift of tongues” is when God gives you the ability to speak a native language that you havent learned in order to preached the gospel. “To speak with new tongues” is to have the Holy Spirit Pray and speak through you in a way that is non-understandable by man. This is the tongues Paul spoke of when he said “I speak in tongues more than you all” in 1 Corinthians 14:18.
    When the Holy Ghost first moved on people in the appalachian mountains at the turn of the century, many of them had NEVER HEARD TONGUES, and Didnt even BELIEVE in them, but through prayer, and living a “Sanctified Life”, they were filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak in other tongues. Many were kicked out of there denominations (mostly baptist) and scolded. Many were persecuted, but God sustained the movement.
    YOU SHOULD seek spiritual gifts through prayer and fasting, and WANT to have them…but Speaking with Tongues is the INITIAL evidence that you have been baptized into the power of the Holy Ghost which already lives inside you.

    Many people have the Holy Ghost living inside, but havent been baptized into it’s power..the power of the Holy Ghost has a purpose, to empower you to do the works that Christ did.

    And You need to study the history of pentecostalism MORE closely. IT is “ONENESS PENTECOSTALS” that teach you HAVE TO SPEAK IN TONGUES..not trinitarian Pentecostals. Oneness pentecostals also believe that if you don’t get baptized in Jesus Name you arent saved….so, in other words..baptism is necissary to salvation (Which isnt true or else many people are in hell who never had the opportunity to get baptized)

    there are some mixed up views on Pentecostalism..this is precisely why a university just got a 700 million dollar grant to study it!!

  107. Yeah... wrote:

    SorrySoCynical, it may surprise you to know that there are many gifts of the Spirit. May I list them? From Romans 12: Prophecy, Ministry (Service), Teaching, Exhortation, Giving, Leadership, and Mercy. From I Corinthians 12: Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge, Faith, HealingS - always plural, btw. Miracles, Discernment of spirits, Tongues, Interpretation of Tongues, Helps, and Administration. Finally, in Ephesians 4, Paul wrote of those who were gifts to the church, one of whom were Evangelists. Many believe that another gift of the Spirit of God is Evangelism.

    And, not only Baptists believe that several of the gifts have passed on… in fact, it was forecast in I Corinthians 13: 8-10. Three gifts given to the early church, to give them credibility until they matured and the Gospel was disseminated to the world, would pass - Prophesies (previously hidden mysteries of God), supernatural Knowledge, and the speaking in tongues. What would cause them to fade away? “When that which was perfect (complete) has come”. And what was that? Many believers believe that it was the Scriptures. Once God’s Word was given and passed around, people had all they needed to either believe or reject Christ. And one of the gifts - above all others - seemed to cause trouble in Corinth then, and troubles today…speaking in tongues. The apostle Paul had to spend an entire chapter (I Cor. 14) writing about their abuse, and the worse abuse of these unknown tongues not being interpreted. Much of what is attributed to the Holy Spirit today is just confusion.

    Yet, He still indwells us, He’s still active in bringing every soul to Christ that has come, He still acts with our conscience to guide us. God still heals, and He still performs miracles throughout every day, all around the world. He’s not confined to one particular group or one belief system. He’s so much bigger than we are, and so much more powerful than that. And above all - he is not the Author of confusion of any kind. Food for thought, I trust.

  108. Stac wrote:

    You guys have made Satan so happy! Just keep arguing about the little things while The Perrys are living the life and running the roads spreading “The Gospel”. I’m suprised no one commented on the color of the carpet or the pews!

  109. RobertaT wrote:

    This is my first time to ever be on this site, and I found it by accidnet looking for something else, But I have a questoin. As I was reading other segments I guess you’d call them, I read many comments about gays etc. My question is to any gay man on here. What would you do, If a good Christian woman loved you? What would you tell her, would you admitt that you were gay, would you tell her you couldn’t love her back? Would you just disappear from her life? I really want to know what you would do. What if she told you she wasn’t judging you, but loved you anyway. I really want to know.

  110. Aaron Swain wrote:

    It was just announced that Chris Cooper is Gold City’s new tenor.

  111. redhead wrote:

    104) Hey wade, when I click the link, which guy are you? Facial hair or no facial hair? Don’t have Facebook, so I can’t go any farther.

  112. Wade wrote:

    redhead… I am the one with the mic in my hand!!! With Facial Hair!! Lotsa hair!!

  113. Wade wrote:

    Look out they are quoting scripture and talking about gays again!!!

    Yawn…

    Stac… I AGREE!!!!

  114. RF wrote:

    It never ceases to amaze me. The fascination or whatever you want to call it that Christians have with gays. It simply amazes me that a group that makes up less than 10% of the population gets so much attention from seemingly intelligent people.

    Then there is the debate over denominations. It’s been going on for eons. Never had anyone been able to reconcile this. Our own local ministerial association breaks up from time to time over this and still we argue. Silly stuff.

    It’s the music that matters and I like it. Some is good and some is bad. Some is very bad, but that’s the same in any form of music. This is not Sunday School or worship, it’s a site to discuss the music, but many do not understand this. And so it goes.

    Finally, who in the wide, wide world of sports is Chris Cooper? It’s like that was announced and no one paid attention while they were arguing over things that will never be agreed upon. Boggles my mind.

  115. joe wrote:

    #102: Thank you for such a refreshing post. It was by far the most sensible post on this topic.

  116. gina wrote:

    Brett - According to someone who saw Crabb Revival last week, it was announced that Terah is no longer a member of the group.

  117. Wade wrote:

    Hey Red Head… I went and changed my profile pic just for you to cut down on the confusion… I am THE GUY in the pic!!!

    RF… great post!!!

  118. NG wrote:

    Here’s link to a good newspaper article on the memorial service for writer Bob Terrell (the second item Doug mentioned in his blog leading to this lengthy thread).

    http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090615/NEWS01/906150319

  119. Aaron Swain wrote:

    #114: Chris Cooper sang with N’Harmony, Won By One, and Safe Harbor. He also filled in with Legacy Five while they were looking for a replacement for Tony Jarman. I have some videos on my blog of him with the local group he just left, The Melodyaires.

  120. gina wrote:

    Anyone know the future plans of Lewis Phillips now that the Lewis Family is retiring? He’s so talented and I am hoping he will continue to play or sing in some capacity. I know he has been playing with the group since he was five years old!

  121. KDM wrote:

    #107…excellent post.

    #113 and 114…I see your point, to an extent. This blog is supposed to be about SG music. But you really can’t separate the music from the theology. It makes sense that we’ll digress into theological debate from time to time. Posts like 107, that just point out what the Scripture says without bashing people over the head with it, invite honest discussion on topics where many people disagree. As long as we keep the conversation cordial (and granted, that doesn’t always happen), I see no reason to shy away from honest discourse on a theological subject on this site.

    The kicker is keeping everyone civil, and avoiding judgmental comments. When you disagree with someone’s theological convictions, you run the risk of picking a fight, whether you meant to or not. We should all try to be careful how we word our posts when discussing theological topics. I’m not saying we should sugar-coat stuff or deny the Scripture for fear of offending someone. But the Scripture invites us to “Come. Let us reason together.” Let’s play nice, people!

  122. quartet-man wrote:

    #114, I understand your point, but when they are brought up, we must talk about them. At least if someone is trying to defend it. I am certainly not one who is thinking about it a lot or obsessed. However, someone almost always brings it up. To ignore it and say it isn’t worthy of defending is a poor way to look at it. That is how things get worse when Christians do nothing. Before you know it, you have missed the boat.

    No, I am not afraid of being overrun or anything. However, ignoring things is not a good strategy.

  123. redhead wrote:

    lol… thanks Wade.

  124. sorrysocynical wrote:

    YEAH….No, it doesn’t surprise me that their are multiple gifts..in fact I said “There are several gifts, but not all are beneficial to the church as a whole”…

    “Gift of tongues” and “Speaking in tongues” iS TWO SEPERATE THINGS..Paul Clearly defined “Speaking in tongues” and “Gift of tongues” as two seperate things, the “Speaking in tongues” being the INITIAL evidence that you have been baptized into the power of the Holy Spirit which already dwells inside of you at the point of salvation.

    Also, Taking the scipture that says “When that which is perfect is come” and trying to say that it means the word of God is ridiculous. Thats totally taking it out of context…and let me guess, you think the KJV is the “Perfect word of God”??

    There are several gifts, but speaking in tongues is the INITIAL..or FIRST evidence that you have been baptized into the power that is inside of you. You can be a christian and not be living and moving in the power of the Holy Spirit. It is only when you are immersed..mind, soul, and spirit that you will be able to speak in an unknown tongue.

  125. Tim wrote:

    #120) I haven’t heard any speculation about Lewis. He is a great talent and I am sure there will be a place for him very soon.

  126. Derek wrote:

    Each of you should check out a song by Andrew Peterson called, “Come Lord Jesus”.

    “And it feels like the church isn’t anything more
    Then the second coming of the Pharisees
    Scrubbing each other ’til their tombs are white
    They chisel epitaphs of piety”

  127. typeest wrote:

    If Terah is no longer with Crabb Revival then where did she go and why. I hope she has not stopped singing. I wonder if Amanda Smith is taking over her place. Anyone know???????

  128. CVH wrote:

    Irishlad - hottest chick from the 70s IMHO hands down was Susan Speer. Discuss…

  129. RobertaT wrote:

    I wasn’t tring to stir up a hornet’s nest, my daughter is in “love” with a man that is rumored to be gay. Wouldn’t you want to know? I wanted to know if a gay man would tell a woman why he wouldn’t date her or “fall” in love with her. If I affended anyone I am sorry.

  130. Wade wrote:

    LoL ;-) :-) CVH is wanting to talk about some HOT SGM Babes. I do not remember Susan Spear. Wish I did cause I respect CVH’s opinion… even if it has NEVER BEEN HUMBLE!! lol

    I remember my first crushes were Ann Downing & Yvonne Hinson. I know they do not look anything close to being alike. But Ann was the Good Girl I liked and Yvonne in my mind was the BAD GIRL!! But that was a SMALL BOY going to Mulls Singing Conventions in Knoxville & Chattanooga.

    As I young man in full blown puberty I remember Candy Hemphill at the NQC one year autographing a pic for me and she made HER NAME REAL BIG and failed to even capitalize the first letter in my name… that kinda cooked her with me then. Then most we know the kinda trouble she got in to later.

    Debra Talley always made me look… but her daughter who you think is hot… I don’t know there is just something about her that bothers me… I can’t quite lay my hands on it. (no pun intended)

    But as I think about it… I went to hear mostly male quartets and NONE OF them EVER did anything for me… now THE PREACHERS DAUGHTERS that came to the singings were where I WAS ALWAYS AT!!!

    I remember Jim Hamil would always do this thing where he would point to his cheek and ask for a kiss and then turn his head at the last second to get them in the mouth… that was always FUNNY… especially when he had a BIG CHEW in his cheek!!! lol

    But I will have to go back and seeif I can find any Susan Speer images…since I did not like their music that much I guess I never paid attention.

  131. paul wrote:

    I remember Susan Speer at Massey Hall in Toronto in the early ’70’s…I was a young university student and she sat in the back of the hall following intermission and fanned her face with a large stack of dollar bills received from album sales…I thought that was extremely “tacky” but, she was young (as was I) and, perhaps, she has matured since then.

  132. Yeah... wrote:

    #124 - SorrySoCynical: One last post here on tongues, even though it’ll likely stir up the posters who hate Scripture discussions.

    “…that which is perfect…” referring to the Bible isn’t off-base at all if you study it. It’s written in a neutral gender in the oldest manuscripts. Neither male nor female. Some believe that phrase to mean the appearing of Christ at the Rapture. (Which isn’t logical, as when the church leaves, so will every gift of the Spirit, not just the three mentioned!) Every time Christ is written of, He’s in the masculine gender. Not in the neutral gender. Some, saying the same thing a different way, say that the above phrase means the end of the church age. (Still illogical) But every time the church is mentioned, we are the bride of Christ, and in the feminine gender. So, that phrase describes something obviously neither masculine or feminine. And many scholars hold that it refers to the complete Bible. It does make one think. What else could that phrase refer to?

    I absolutely disagree with your take on “the gift of tongues” and “speaking in tongues. On the actual day of Pentecost the disciples spoke in tongues unknown to them, but perfectly known to all of the nationalities in Jerusalem. They’re quoted as saying that, in fact. After that day, the only people who could speak in unknown tongues were those gifted by the Spirit of God to do so. Not everyone, by a long shot. Nor was it the preeminent gift. Not even close. Read I Corinthians 14 and you’ll see that. Paul stated firmly that he’d rather speak 5 words understood by all, than 10,000 in an unknown tongue.

    And btw - I’m anything but a KJV person. I study too much to be limited to any one version. Nice try, though.

    Now Wade, you can get back to who’s hot in sgm. Sorry to drag the discourse down from that lofty thought.

  133. Ron F wrote:

    Hey aaron Swain does Chris Cooper have a brother Stephen that sings with the Dixie Melody Boys?

  134. Brett wrote:

    Wade, I agree I never have like Lauren singing with her family. I just don’t like her. Kirk, ROger & Debra sounded better together then the Talley trio.

    Gina thanks for answering about CR.

  135. Jeremy wrote:

    According to the background section of Crabb Revival’s website, Terah has left and Amanda is a part of the group.

  136. Extra Ink wrote:

    Well, the Perrys are on the cover of the Singing News this month. Great group, bad picture. As usual with the Singing News covers, several of the group members’ faces are washed out, ghost white. I’d betcha Kim Lancaster took the picture….just a hunch.

  137. Wade wrote:

    OK Since CVH got this going I decided to do some research on the HOTNESS of some SGM Babes… and I mean that in the most Christian way as some one on a recent post referred to Kim Green Hopper…lol…yeah right and I don’t mean poster YEAH!!!

    CVH thought Susan Speer was Hot in the 70’s and he also thinks Lauren Talley is Hot CURRENTLY!!!

    I did not remember Susan because CVH & Irishlad are OLDER than ME… but because I SOOO respect CVH’s NEVER humble opinion I did HOURS of TIRING & EXHAUSTIVE research!!! Here are some links that will take you to see Susan in the 70’s and in the 2000’s. I agree she looks HOT and Thank Goodness she never had the BIG TALL HAIR.

    Her smile says she is friendly and a little firecracker. I wonder which Speer is her parents…looks like maybe Faye & Brock if I had to guess.

    Enjoy the picz and we welcome your thoughts of WHO YOU think is a HOT SGM Babe of the past and present… who was your first SGM Crush???

    The first link are pics from the 70’s… you might have to scroll down some but you will see!!

    http://www.grandolegospelreunion.com/sg-101/speer_best.htm

    Here’s another from the 70’s when CVH was in his mid 30’s!! lol

    http://books.google.com/books?id=kJQtrJNvo7gC&pg=PA197&lpg=PA197&dq=Susan+Speer+Gospel&source=bl&ots=3YwjFKMCG0&sig=gtgKclfqBYm9nUpYFkLahZT7znE&hl=en&ei=Sbk5SsvKOYKEtwfSwenXDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#PPA197,M1

    This last link is more current. She still looks pretty good…don’t know if she has had the WORK some of the catty women on another thread here are accusing Kim G. Hopper of having… but hey… I’M not a hater…

    You will have to scroll down some to find Susan… but just look for Bill, Gloria and Faye and you will find her in the last roll to the right…

    http://www.gospelmusicupdate.com/gallery/gmahof.html

    Enjoy and pass along any info on Susan as far as what she is doing now and other SGM Hotties… in the MOST Christian way of course!!

  138. weber wrote:

    #133-#134, I would have to agree, Lauren does not have a pleasant tone to her voice, and she really does not have a good range. They were much better with Kirk. As for the Crabb Family in general, I lost respect for them as singers when they decided to start appearing on TBN with all the televangelist fleecing the flock. These televangelist live in multi-million dollar homes private jets, fine automobiles. I think the Crabb family participation in the fund raising is dispicable. They are nothing but opportunist and will “run with any dog”. They are not Southern Gospel, never have been, but yet tried to market themselves as such. So no matter who the alto is, i garantee you will see them on the next Paul and Jan Crouch telethon.

  139. Aaron Swain wrote:

    #132: Yes.

  140. GrandmaPam wrote:

    Wade, in your #136 links I noticed Lisa Abraham. It’s been quite a while since I saw any pictures of her–she looks great.

  141. cynical one wrote:

    Wade, your guess was correct. Susan is Faye & Brock’s daughter. And you’re all correct, she was a hottie, and still ain’t bad.

    I had a HUGE crush on Janet Paschal, from the first time I saw her with the Lefevres. Also Joy Dyson-McGuire-Gardner, Candy Hemphill (a little young for me, though — she was only about 15 when I first saw her with her family, and I was at least 7 or 8 years older, and married), and Sue Chenault-Dodge, in the day.

    And now I’ve blown my cover. Anyone who knows me very well knows about those teenage crushes. But that’s been a LONG time ago.

  142. Wade wrote:

    Cynical One…

    Hey we all had the Crushes… I have always just loved Janet Paschal. She is CLASS all the WAY!!!

    But she seemed too sweet for me. I like a little bit of a BAD GIRL!!! So I always liked Kelly!!! lol

    With Susan, I think what CVH saw was the look of mischief in her eye!! Now That’s HOT!! lol Let’s go get in a little trouble and then pray about it!! lollolo

    I still have a thing for preacher’s daughters!!

    So Cynical One… it is never too late or too old to look and admire the GREATEST CREATURE ever put on God’s Green Earth!!

    They may keep you on the edge with insanity but it sure is fun!!!

  143. wackythinker wrote:

    I’ve been thinking of late (that in itself may be considered a miracle) that there are an awful lot of people, especially on blogs like this, who claim to be “good friends” or “close friends” with certain artists. Or we say we “know” a particular person, and he/she would not have acted in a certain manner, or is not the jerk someone else perceived him/her to be.

    And I got to wondering how well we commenters really know the person we’re upholding. Have we only talked with that person in a public setting (like the record table), when he/she is on his/her best behaviour, or have we ridden on the bus, gone fishing together, had dinner in each others’ homes, etc? Do we really spend the quality time with these people, to know if what we see on stage and at the record table is the same as what we’d see at the house? Are they the same in public as they are in private? Are they just as Godly in the kitchen or at WalMart as they appear to be at the local municipal auditorium?

    Do they show the same spirit when the bank messes up their checking account as they are show when singing some touching song? Or does that touch of the Spirit on stage turn into a slug fest at their kid’s little league game? Are they just as faithful to their spouses when only the last 2 or 3 diesel sniffers are around, when they think no one’s watching, as they appear to be when they KNOW hundreds of folks are watching?

    Does he cheat at golf? Does he beat his wife? Is she a closet alcoholic or addicted to prescription drugs? How does he treat his elderly parents? How’s her relationship with her kids and their biological father?

    I’m just wondering if we sometimes speak up for someone we really don’t know as well as we think we do. Any comments?

  144. Tim wrote:

    After that video I can honestly say I never want to hear that song again…EVER.

  145. Andrew S. wrote:

    135-You are absolutely right. What happened to Paul Wharton? At least when he did them they were a little focused.

  146. Ron F wrote:

    #136 Wade thanks for that info. Where can one buy that book??

  147. Lead1 wrote:

    Why is there not more chatter concerning the hiring of Gold City’s new tenor?

    Is it creating that little buzz?

  148. CVH wrote:

    Wade, you’ve got my number. There was more than a little mischief in her :) All good.

    Nice research. But for the record, I was only in my 20s in the 70’s. Yeah, eye-Candy Hemphill was a nice looking woman too. And honestly, she’s not SG, but I think Amy is one of the most sensual women in music, period, any genre. She came into it in her 30s, post-Gary/pre-Vince and still has it. These days Judy Martin Hess does it for me…gorgeous eyes and a sexy nose. Gee, can I say that on a SG blog?

  149. Irishlad wrote:

    CVH. The group i mentioned is a little obsqure,wanted to see if any one else remembered them.Was SS the brunette on the Cornerstone album? If so i wholeheartly agree with you.

  150. CVH wrote:

    Irishlad - no, that’s Diane Mays and I forget the name of the other woman - she wasn’t with them that long. Susan had left the group by late ‘72 or early ‘73. She was with them in that brief early 70’s phase when she and her brother and Ben’s son were with the group playing and singing. It lasted a few years but Susan was gone by then. Too bad but I don’t think it was her thing.

  151. Blake Edmondson wrote:

    Tim,
    Are we supposed to care and be outraged by what you said? You just wanted to stir the pot and it looks like nobody is paying you any attention! (except me just to point that out)

  152. Tom wrote:

    I shook hands with Kim Hopper in 2005, I’ve never washed it since. Seriously, so many attractive women in SG….Which goes to show you can be appreciated as “hot” and still be dressed appropriately etc.

  153. Wade wrote:

    CVH…

    I actually thought about Amy Grant… but did not want to OFFEND any of the PURE SGM ppl here. But since you brought her up!! Can remember my first love was an AMY look alike, long hair, pure looks, never had to wear much make up and always smelled good. We used to set around listening to SING YOUR PRAISE TO THE LORD and EL SHADDAI over & over.

    Irishladdy…can’t believe you would ever mention something OBSCURE!!! No Not you!! lol… we need some more input from you on this subject.

    Good find CVH with the Judy Martin Hess here is her myspace link… somebody make friends with her and tell her we are talking about her…

    http://www.myspace.com/judymartinhess

    Since you brought up the NOSE thing… not going to get into what is going on in the other thread about SGM Babe’s getting WORK DONE but always thought THE MARTIN NOSES was what give them there SPECIAL HARMONIC BLEND!!!

    Speaking of SEXY noses, why could you not say it on a SGM blog???

    Some of these folks really need to loosen up a little bit. But I just LOVE Lis Wiehl’s nose has anybody else noticed that. Surely on a SGM Blog some body watches Fox News!!

    Ron F… if the book you are talking about it the EXHAUSTIVE research I have volumed out here sorry. If it is the book that some of the picz were in refer back to the site.

  154. wanderer wrote:

    #149 I believe the other lady you mention is Vicki Clayton Harvell.

  155. SGDoc wrote:

    #146 - cause no one really cares. Not Gold City. I really miss Tim. He was a great bass singer and a classy and honorable businessman. No buzz cause, there’s no reason for one. More surprises to come from what I here.

  156. Dean Adkins wrote:

    Re #148…The Renaissance was a trio composed of 2nd generation Toneys (of the Toney Brothers). Original group consisted of Greg Toney (son of Alden Toney) and siblings Darrell & Debbie Toney (their father - Kyer Toney). BTW, Darrell has a great tribute to Jerry Reed CD (he can really play guitar well).

  157. Joe wrote:

    To follow some of the comments about tongues, I share a few more pearls with any interested.

    Yeah- I really appreciated your thoughts. Wade- this will be from the Bible, You may ignore this post, as you have let us all know many times, how much you hate the Bible.

    1. When Paul stated in 1 Cor. 13:8 that tongues would “cease”, the Greek word he uses is “to abruptly stop”. The word he uses for knowledge and prophecy means to “gradually fade away”. I believe the gift of “tongues” abruptly ceased when Israel, as a nation, finally and fully rejected the gospel of Christ.

    2. The gift of tongues was not being able to speak in some heavenly gibberish or the language of angels. The word for “tongues” is simply “languages”. It was a momentary gift allowing a person to intelligently preach the gospel in a language of earth he had never learned; the purpose was to allow as many as possible, from as many places as possible, to hear the wonderful news of the gospel. This is why, after Pentecost, 3000 souls from many provinces, countries, and dialects all got saved on the same day (Acts 2:5-11). The NT definition of “tongues” is found in Acts 2:8.

    3. “Tongues”, as misused today, is not a sign to others of how spiritual the user or the interpreter might be. They were not intended for Christians to use upon Christians anyway. Scripture is crystal-clear that not only was the misuse of tongues in Corinth selfish (1 Cor. 14:4), but they were only ever intended as a sign to unbelievers (1 Cor. 14:20-22).

    4. The only 3 times, including Pentecost, that the gift of languages was used in the book of Acts, was to unsaved Jews, to prove to them that this new gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ was the real deal (Acts 2:5-11, 10:44-48, and 19: 1-8). The single clue word to understand the NT concept of “tongues”, is……Jews.

    5. There are 3 lists of gifts in the NT, given to the early church. In very short order, as the infant church matured, and as the apostle’s doctrine was written down, in order that the NT canon was started toward completion, the gifts in each subsequent list drastically reduced.
    1 Cor. 12- (AD 56)-18-20 gifts.
    Romans 12- (AD 58)-7 gifts.
    Ephesians 4-(AD 61)- 4-5 gifts.
    As the church grew, and the Word of God became more complete, the miraculous sign gifts ceased.

    Hope this is a help to any interested.

  158. Wade wrote:

    Dr Joe…

    I love the bible. I just don’t come here to be preached to by ppl like you!!

    You may be surprised though at the amount of the bible I have been reading and about lately. It is good to see you have not kept your promise and you are still around!!! …lol… I always know you are there!!!

    So Dr. Joe, who do you think is/was a Hot Babe in SGM??? Can you answer that without quoting scripture???

    Can YOU answer a question or contribute to the discussion without quoting scripture &/or putting your twist to it??? OR passing judgment on SOME one??

    I did think about you the other night while MCing a Gospel Music Concert at a Church of God School Gym!!

    Despite it being @ a Church of Gawd (phonetic from the minister who PRAYED us in) the crowd was about 1/2 Baptist.

    THEY WERE GOOD SPORTS, so after poking a little fun at both crowds in the spirit of Mark Lowry. I ad libbed a joke…

    “So we are here tonight with 2 distinct groups… One that thinks you can loose the greatest gift God has ever given..the Second thinks you can do ANYTHING and NOT loose it!!”

    THEY LOVED IT!!

  159. Wade wrote:

    GOLD CITY!!!

    SG DOC… I have heard there are some surprises too… in fact listen up…

    JULY 25… I have a HOLD on that Date for The Southman!!! For anybody that does not know that is the group with whom Tim Riley sings.

    I can have them any place in the Chattanooga area. If you know a church or a business person who would like to sponsor a concert please advise.

    loandr4u@yahoo.com

    It might be one of the last concert they have w/ Tim!!

    I would REALLY like to do this but I do not have as much money as I once did!!!

    Am I am GREAT GUY or WHAT???

    As far as the other buzz or lack of about the tenor change… I have info and commentary but trying to stay out of trouble… some… but SG DOC is a little sneaky huh???

  160. christopher reed wrote:

    1st of all. I have come to my brother-in laws defence. He is not a jerk, matter of fact, he is an encourager to me. Libbi’s sister, Debra is my wife. Our daughter Brittany, over a year ago was hanging with the wrong crowds. But one time when she came to hear the Perrys sing near the house, We had all we could take and asked the Lord for intervention. Libbi told Brittany to come stay at her house for just a little bit and hopefully her life would get straightened out. The thing is if Tracy was a jerk, he could have said,
    “No libbi, we don’t need to be involved with that”, but No he welcomed Brittany into their home. They showed Jesus to her and she got back in church. She met a guy in their church and this past Saturday they got married after one year of her going up there… So i want you to know people that Tracy isnt what he is accused of. And someone said it best. He does let the Holy Spirit lead him. I sang professionally with the Toney Bros and former members of the Blackwoods. And Ladies and Gentlemen, They had no clue of being led by the Spirit. So, Tracy, Thank you for letting God use you, despite of criticism. I pray that those negative thoughts would come subject to the authority of Jesus Christ.
    Christopher Reed

  161. rr wrote:

    On Facebook, you can find Suzan Kaye Speer, if you want to see what she looks like in 2009.

  162. Blake Edmondson wrote:

    Joe (with a capital J!!!),

    That was a great summation.

    I believe that speaking in tongues today in pentecostal-holiness churches has become nothing more than a learned behavior. However, I believe God has allowed some Christians to use this as a outward form of worship. Shouting, Hallelujahs, and Amens don’t mean anything in earthly terms but most use these as a response to the spirit. I believe tongues is nothing more than that.

  163. sorrysocynical wrote:

    Joe, if you’ll study further in the greek you’ll see that the word “Cease” or end takes a personal not corporate connotation. And also, every time we see people filled with the Holy Ghost in Acts they “Spake in other tongues”..even if they were in their native land…so what would be the point in them speaking different languages at that point??? they just spontaneously erupted into other languages when nobody was present to hear that language and understand it? NO, there is a distinct difference in tongues that are interpreted through prophecy in the church, and tongues that are used as a “Gift” to preach the gospel to foreign languages..2 seperate gifts, for 2 seperate purposes. The bible says “When we dont know what to pray the spirit prays with groanings (Syllables) which cannot be uttered (understood)… study the history of tongues in america..99% of those who spake in tongues had never heard it and never believed in it.

    u have flawed doctrine.

  164. sorrysocynical wrote:

    Christ said one of the signs that shall follow the believers is that they will “Speak with new tongues”. This is found in Mark 16:17.

    Also, in Acts 19 paul preached in Ephesus to a group of people who were saved but didn’t have the Holy Ghost baptism..he said “Have you received the HOly Ghost since you believed” he prayed for them and they “All spake with other tongues and propheside”. sounds to me like they
    1. Didnt have this power upon salvation
    2. didnt speak other languages to other nationalities because we see NONE present.

    The gifts and signs arent dead…they live on. Baptist and many other doctrines teach that these gifts were needed untill “Maturity” came to the believers…and I ask you…what believers are more mature, the early church believers who died for their beliefs, or ours today who backslide after each flu shot. Who stands in MORE need of gifts and signs…them or us?? So why would God allow these gifts to “Cease” to a generation without
    1. Making it clearly known these wont be needed in years to come
    2. Preparing that generation in other fashions

  165. Me wrote:

    This is by far the best SN cover in a long time!
    The Perrys are a class act!
    Kim Lancaster in the best thing that has happened to that mag in a while!

  166. JoJo wrote:

    #150, I’m with Tim.

  167. Nashville Phil wrote:

    Wade, CVH and others, sure some of those girls were and still are good lookers.

    The only BABE that I remember from that era(And she is still HOT!!! Lucky Jerry)
    Little Jan Buckner.

    - WeeDoggy she cranks my Tractor still!!!

  168. Irishlad wrote:

    Alison durnham Speer….

  169. Tim wrote:

    Blake,

    #150 I was just commenting as anyone else. I care not to “stir the pot”. My point was merely the fact that they must have sung that song 7 times and I got my dose of it. Thats all. Carry on.

  170. Butch wrote:

    Man, you guys sound like a bunch of horny old farts who are past your prime. Get a life and spice it up with your own wife-if you’re straight!

  171. herb wrote:

    The only female I would like to see in SG these days is Jenny Craig!

  172. gina wrote:

    Tim, you are not alone!

  173. Sexy Kitten wrote:

    Oh Wade — you are such a hunk! Are you single, Sweety? I’d love to be your hot-lips honey. Ummm ummm ummm and ummm!

  174. A Friend Of A Friend wrote:

    Nashville Phil — You are absolutely right about LJB-G. She’s one of the most beautiful people I know. (inside & out)

    And, to boot, she’s probably the best looking Great-Grandma you’ve ever seen, too!

  175. Aaron Swain wrote:

    #159: It might be one of Tim’s last dates with The Southmen, but the rumor floating about him returning to GC is probably a bunch of fluff. Tim’s health barely allows him to do the 10-12 dates a year with The Southmen, so traveling GC’s schedule again wouldn’t make any sense.

  176. gina wrote:

    Christopher Reed - I find it admirable that you came here to “defend” your brother-in-law. But how can you feel good about insulting other groups in the process? Just curious…

  177. Cincy SGfan wrote:

    I stopped following this blog entry too early!!! Since the last time I looked two of my favorite topics have come up, the Crabb family, and hot babes!! Bridging the gap of both subjects, I have to say that during the concert last Saturday I stole quite a few glances of Amanda Crabb (the casual look works for her).

    #116 - Gina that is my comment at http://www.southerngospelforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=211 that you refer to, how about a hat tip?

    #127 - Adam said at the concert that she wanted to stay at home to be a “better” wife and mother. I’m sure by better he meant on the road less.

    #137 - past is well represented, how about future? I have to think Karlye Jade Hopper will be at the top of this category if she stays in SG.

  178. gina wrote:

    Cincy, was the concert really THAT poorly attended that you think you’re the only one to report the comment that particular night? Or do you think THAT was the only concert at which it was announced about Terah? LOL! It’s not quite that small a world…

  179. Faith wrote:

    171 Herb…oh my gosh…that made me laugh out loud!!!

    I know the topics have kind of changed, but I wanted to say that my first SG crush was Kirk Talley…of course, that was years ago. I also thought Chris Collins from the Kingsmen was cute…obviously that was a long time ago too!

    I haven’t followed this blog as closely as I used to, but every couple of weeks I check it out. I guess it’s because I’m usually disappointed by it.

    Finally, this song is okay, but I NEVER. Want. To. Hear. It. Again!!!! Please, have mercy!

  180. CVH wrote:

    RE: #173 Sexy Kitten: come on, Ernie, cut it out!

  181. David J. Stuart wrote:

    I remember the first time i saw the Greenes live, and Amy Lambert was singing with them. She was single back then. I bought their picture and had it signed by them all, and Amy signed it for me, Love Amy! Boy i got a thrill out of that. I thought she was adorable! ..she still is , but married now!

  182. hottiewatcher wrote:

    Speaking of hotties in Southern Gospel music, what about Melody Williams (tall, blonde hair) who sang with the Nelons when the group was comprised of herself, Kelly, Paul Lancaster, Jason Clark (playing bass), tall young guy with glasses playing keyboard and I think Dan Clark in the late 90s early 2000s. She was smokin…without the cigarettes. She could everymore belt out Angels Step Back (It’s Our Turn To Sing) and everything else. Melody preceded Katy Van Horn Peach, who preceded Amber joining the group. They did a great song that nobody ever took notice of “You Ain’t Seen The Last of Jesus.”

  183. Joe wrote:

    Sorrysocynical-

    The entire context of 1 Corinthians 11-14 is corporate. Every teaching there is to the entire assembly/church. There is NO distinction in the greek that would make 13:8 “personal”. That is wrong doctrine.

    Secondly, there is not a single distinction ever made between the gifts of “launguages” and tongues. That is also doctrinal error. They are one and the same. They are NEVER a mark of spirituality, nor are they to be used one believer to another. They were a temporary sign-gift to UNBELIEVING JEWS.

    And finally, studying the “tongues movement” would do me no good at all.
    It’s like studying the evolution movement. Many people believe it, but that doesn’t really change the fact that it is still unscriptural and incorrect.

  184. sorrysocynical wrote:

    Joe…what is your credentials in greek? How deeply have you studied it? Did you do a word search on the internet? or do you hold an actual degree??

    Show me a verse of scripture that says it is “Temporary”…and show me WHY it would benefit THAT generation of the church and not THIS generation of the church…You cannot produce a verse that calls ANY of the biblical spiritual gifts “Temporary”..IF THEY ARE Temporary, what would be the purpose in allowing them to be in the bible for future generations..let me guess..for our “Admonition and learning”…ridiculous. The Gifts of the Spirit are still in opration today. Including tongues.

  185. Wade wrote:

    rr…tried to find her on facebook but could not… she might be blocked from being searchable… if you have her url please post. Thank!!!

    SorrySoCynical… if you are thinking you are going to get dr Joe to admit he is wrong or SOMEONE else my have an interesting thought quit wasting your time. He is ALWAYS right. He does not play well with others. While I agree with his thoughts… don’t pass out dr Joe… I have seen many spirit filled meeting where tongues were expressed. Catch the McGruders sometime for an example.

    Butch…pull your panties out of your crack. Unless your name = Lesbian descriptor then your boxers will do. Believe me when I have had a wife is was CAJUN SPICY!!!

    So SexyKitten… that answers your question HOLLA!! Unless your Ernie as CVH suggest!! lol

    IrishLaddy… you need to contribute more than one word here especially since Old Harry Peters has left us.

    NashvillePhil & FriendofaFriend… Yes about Little Jan… Dr Jerry don’t have No UGLY WOMEN and she is as Great Inside as Out I had the good fortune of working with them a few times.

    Faith…thanks for throwing in the female perspective.

    Thanks to ALL the Hot SGM Babes contributors…keep them coming.

  186. Joe wrote:

    SSC- I have studied the Bible for 43 years. I have a library of 600 books. I do not mean to sound like a know-it-all, but this info is readily available.

    Strong’s Hebrew dictionary says that “cease” in 1 Cor. 13:8 means to “quit, desist, come to an end”. It is a totally different word than what is used for prophecy and knowledge. The word Paul uses there, means to “fade away”.

    Thayer’s as well says it means to “cease or desist”.

    Tongues was speaking in known languages to unsaved people (Acts 2:8).

    Tongues, as a gift, was not even mentioned in the NT past 1 Cor. Not a single time. Before 2nd Cor., they were done. They are not even mentioned in the spiritual gifts-list of AD 58 and AD 61.

    The misuse of tongues in the church was actually selfish. It only benefitted the user (1 Cor. 14:4). In that verse, the word “unknown” was added by the translators. The word “unknown” is never used alongside of “tongues”.

    Paul valued words of ministering God’s Word in the church, more than 10,000 words in another language. Work that out: 1 hour of his ministry was of more value than 2000 hours of speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 14:19).

    Tongues were only ever meant to be a sign for unsaved people (1 Cor.14:22).

    A saved visitor coming into a church meeting, and hearing tongues used, has the right to call the users looney-tunes (1 Cor. 14:23).

    1 Cor. 14:21 proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, from the prophecy of Joel, that God only ever intended tongues to be a sign to His earthly people, the Jews. When He said, through Paul, that “they will not hear me”, He effectively said that this sign-gift was through. Done. Finit. And Paul had confirmed this 1 chapter before, by choosing the Greek word to state that tongues would abruptly stop.

    That “tongues” are used today, proves nothing. Not anything more, than saying snakes are still used today. (Sorry, Wendy Bagwell…)

  187. Joe wrote:

    typo, ssc- that is Strong’s Hebrew/Greek dictionary…

  188. sorrysocynical wrote:

    WOW Joe, so becaus something isn’t mentioned again, it isn’t necissary?

    Shall we mention the VAST amount of topics that Paul mentions in SOME book but not ALL books?? In Timothy he speaks against female authority in the church, but never mentions this in many other books. Could this be because he established certain teachings in churches more dominantly in PERSON and didnt have a NEED to reiterate by letter??

    Well, I havent studied NEARLY as long as you, but my library nearly triples the size of yours…but guess what, this is not a “my library is bigger than your library” situation, Man-made books are merely imitations.

    I was ONCE a huge sceptic, critic, and unbeliever of tongues, like you, I rode off what i had not ever experienced. But at a prayer meeting one night, from my belly, a language poured out that I had never heard or understood. This language took me to a level of prayer that I had never had. It wasn’t from my head, it was from my spirit….

    YOu still have yet to produce ONE VERSE that says “These gifts will only benefit the early church, there will come a time when we dond need it”. Your “They shall cease” verse doesn’t point to that conclusion at all, you took the word “cease” and beat the “Tar” out of it….that phrase simply means that at SOME POINT, a person willl stop speaking in tongues because it can’t be done for eternity, ya gotta eat sometime! It doesnt imply that “These gifts will one day be gone”…..As long as God has a church on the earth, the gifts will be in operation. Not just tongues, but ALL of them…When “That which is perfect” is come (christ is the ONLY thing perfect) he will remove his church and gifts will CEASE at THAT POINT ONLY.

    Once again, if your argument is that the early church needed those gifts to bring them into maturity..doesn’t it stand to reason that the LESS mature geneartion of the church (Ours) would need those gifts too???

  189. Joe wrote:

    SSC- How in the world could the church today be LESS mature than the infant church of the first century? They did not have a complete canon of the NT until the 2nd century AD. They relied on temporary prophets, and the passing-down and recopying of the apostle’s doctrine. Today, the gospel has gone around the world a thousand times, to almost everywhere. The IBS stated in 2002, that the NT had been translated and distributed in 1012 different languages and dialects; 7 years later, just add to that number! Why in the world would we need “the gift of tongues”, when computers around the world can print and email the Word of God in seconds, in over 1000 languages?!

    God prophesied, through Joel, that the gift of tongues would come upon His earthly people, and it did, at Pentecost. The other 2 times, as I have shown you, that it happened in Acts, was to unbelieving Jews.

    The book of Acts ends with the final judgment against Israel as a nation; Luke records what Paul says at the end of chapter 28. In chapter 13, Paul clearly gives them yet another chance, but they “judged themselves unworthy of eternal life”, and the door of faith was then opened to the Gentiles (13 and 14).

    1 Cor. 14:21-22 plainly states that tongues were a specific sign-gift for unsaved Jews. They are not mentioned after 1 Cor. They are not included in the 2 later lists of gifts. They were an unnecessary nuisance in the church. They were selfish (14:4), unfruitful (14:14), confusing (14:33), embarrassing (14:23-24), misused (the whole chapter), and they were not even one of the best gifts to covet (12:30-31). I am not implying that Paul implies they will stop abruptly. I am saying that this is exactly what he SAID. And I have shown you, from Scripture, why they had to stop. They were for Jews. They were not for the church. In fact, in 1 Cor. 14, Paul doesn’t use a single mention of tongues, where he really treats them in a positive light. By the way, the word “unknown” is not there- every time used in connection with “tongues”, it is in italics- added by the translators.

    I do not mean to make light of what, to you, my be very special. But saying what happened to you, when it goes against Scripture, is anecdotal evidence at best, and Scripture trumps. If I were to tell you that I found a cucumber at Food Lion, with a perfect image/likeness of the Virgin Mary, and that she spoke to me, and made my aching back disappear, how would you react? It would be very real to me, but what would the Word of God have to say about such a thing?

  190. redhead wrote:

    On the subject of SG hotties - what about Charlotte Richie?

  191. sorrysocynical wrote:

    Okay…Give me the DATE that tongues ceased to be useful to the church.

    Give me the Scipture when Paul said they would no longer be needed.

    The first Century church BELIEVED The Apostles doctrine Joe…which is stark opposite of the church today..most christians Disagree with the teachings of Paul.

    Jan Crouch once said “The Pauline epistles arent meant as authority, we ONLY need the teachings of Christ”.

    Just because they didnt have the King James version in canonized form doesn’t mean they were immature..in fact, they are better off with letters, and the original teachings than ill-contrived versions by people who barely spoke the language.

  192. CVH wrote:

    RE: Redhead, #190 - duly noted and agree - Charlotte’s very fine.

    Another hottie is Karen Williams of the Daryl Williams Trio - http://www.darylwilliamstrio.net/media/darywlilliamstriopicture.jpg

    Doug has got to love this…nearly 200 posts almost equally divided between tongues and hotties…and are they really that far apart?

  193. Joe wrote:

    SSC-

    I cannot give you the exact date. But I can give you the exact event, and even the exact day. When Israel, as a nation, set aside the gospel and rejected the overtures of the cross, God set them aside. This is recorded in Paul’s words at the very end of Acts 28:23-31. Interestingly, this happened on “an appointed day” (verse 23). This was the day that the sign-gift of tongues became no longer necessary.

    Paul stated that tongues would “abruptly stop” in 1 Cor. 13:8. He then explains why, in 1 Cor. 14:21-22; the prophecy of Joel had been fulfilled; Israel had had their multiple chances to bow to the gospel, and they had said “NO”, so the need for this specific sign-gift had passed.

    What “the church” might believe or not believe today is irrelevant, SSC- that does not change the fact that we are commanded to believe the entire Word of God. It is all inspired, all profitable (2 Tim. 3:15), and whether or not folks choose to not believe what Paul has written, he was careful to say that ALL he had written were “the commandments of the Lord” (1 Cor. 14:37).

    I don’t know who Jan Crouch is, but he (or she) is dead wrong.

    Please understand what I tried to write a few posts back, but messed up. Paul plainly stated that his ministering “5 words” of the Word of God was better than his speaking 10,000 words in another’s language (1 Cor. 14:19). Explaining to a sinner the words of the Savior “You must be born again” is more valuable than 10,000 words in glossalalia. Carrying this percentage out, one hour of pure ministry of the Word of God, is worth more than 84 straight days of trying to “speak in tongues”, for 24 hours per day.

  194. Wade wrote:

    CVH… lol… if we are lucky it is not!!!

    & WoW CVH… you are all over any connection to the Speer Family huh???

    Thanks Red Head for the reminder… the last time Gaither was in Chattanooga of course Charlotte was still singing with the Easter’s and my friend that was with me wondered where her legs went to!!

    dr Joe and SSC are really getting off on this tongue debate!!

  195. Sexy Kitten wrote:

    CVH (# 180) — My name is not Ernie!

  196. Jake wrote:

    Wow — We’re up to almost 200 replies. Isn’t that some kind of a record? Even the homosexual threads didn’t go this far.

  197. sorrysocynical wrote:

    I agree with you, the Gospel being preached is the top priority, even if you arent a tongue talker, but I wholly disagree with you that 1 Cor 13:8 means “Abruptly stop”…there are MORE than ONE translation of the word “Cease” and it is used in many differnet forms, such as “Fade away” or “reversed”…You’re taking it out of context. The Topic wasnt “tongues” the topic was “love”…He also said “Knowledge shall vanish away”,
    and “prophecies will fail”…somebody could take that phrase to mean that we no longer have to listen to the prophecies of John in Revelation because “They shall fail”…The CONTEXT OF THE SCRIPTURE IS LOVE NOT THE LONGEVITY OF TONGUES. You have been trained wrong. Your interpretation has been taught to you through years of tradition..mine has been a personal experience with the word. Also, if the “Day” israel rejected Christ as a whole was the END Of Apostolic gifts of the spirit…why werent the FRUIT of the spirit also annulled?? And Why do we see Apostolic gifts in operation years after that “day”..even though I personally DONT BELIEVE You can pinpoint the “day” Israel rejected Christ.
    Explain to me why people spoke in tongues in Acts 19 and many other times in Acts when NO OTHER NATIONALITIES WERE PRESENT. You’re not looking at Logic. When tongues flowed out of believers in Ephesus, there was NO interpretation to the differnet nationalities, because we see NONE present in the story. I believe that would have been a fact that God wouldn’t let slip by…there are..
    1. Gifts of Tongues
    2. SPeaking in tongues (Prayer language and prophetic interpretation language)…and it is PLAINLY DISTINCT IN THE WORD. IN SOME parts of acts, tongues are used to preach the Gospel to different dialects, and in other times was merely a prayer language.

    I digress..you Baptists are even more stubborn than us…”nondenominationals/pentecost/charismatic/holiness” people…hahaha

  198. Wade wrote:

    Jake… you are right and there is a VAST range in post to this thread. There were some gay issues on here if I remember…plus the one gay thread did get shut down too.

    This thread would have gotten there if dr Joe had come on to quote his verses about how gay ppl are going to hell… but he got distracted by THE GREAT TONGUING DEBATE… but when he & Butchy fails to point out that there is a LONG list mentioned in those verses of a bunch of other ppl… and if you take ALL those ppl heavens population will be sparse cause those list are about like a preacher who does what I cal CALL the ROLL of any kinda of sin if ppl do not come to the alter to pray based on the specific sermon’s subject.

    “SURELY SOME ONE HAS DONE SOMETHING HERE THIS WEEK that would merit coming to the alter for prayer”… especially if the preacher is big into Nickels, Noise & Numbers!!!

    Bailey Smith is great at this in his sermons how he gets everybody to DOUBT their salvation so he can count them saved again & he gets credit for it… if you get into heaven by getting ppl to doubt their salvation (which I could do if I wanted) he will have the GREAT MANSION on the Hill!!

    I know ppl who have gone to the alter just so they would shut up and we could go to lunch!! lolllol

  199. Joe wrote:

    First of all, ssc- I am not a Baptist. Never was.

    Secondly, the burden is on you to prove that there is a difference between, as you say, the gift of tongues and the gift of tongues.

    This should be good.

  200. rr wrote:

    Wade, it’s spelled Suzan, not Susan.

  201. sorrysocynical wrote:

    I already proved it with Acts 19…..There were no different nationalities present, yet the bible says “They” (The Ephesian people who heard the preaching of Paul for several days leading up to the event) “All began to speak in other tongues and propheside”….There is your proof. There were tongues, there was interpretation. Nowhere does it suggest there were other dialects present that NEEDED to hear the gospel in their own language….they were all Ephesian people who had been forced just like the rest of the region to learn ONE LANGUAGE. This was NOT a time of a feast, so though there may have been travelers and pilgrims because of the regional and commercial position of Ephesus, the writer plainly lets us know that it was EPHESIAN people that spake in tongues, and EPHESIAN people that propheside, and THUS started the church in Ephesus. It was NOT foreigners like on the day of Pentecost who all heard the Gospel in their own language, it was Ephesian people speaking in tongues in front of Ephesian people..now, I ask, how can you argue out of that?? YOU ARE a Baptist, you’re lying. Every argument you are arguing is STAUNCH Baptist tradition. You may think you arent baptist, but you are. :)

  202. Wade wrote:

    So Sexy Kitten… So what is your name??? Holla at a brutha if you want me to give you the SGM Hottie Test!!! lollol CVH will only do it if you have sang or been connected to the Speers Family some way!! :-) ;-)

    dr Joe… knew ya wasn’t a Baptist… Did SSC try to hang that on ya during the GREAT TONGUE DEBATE???

    dr joe and SSC…or any body???… What does the Bible say about taking up the serpent???

    I have been in those kinda services and observed they had recently fed the snakes. Basic zoology tells me a snake is very docile after being fed.

    I say if they have REAL FAITH… starve the suckers for a while and then TAKE UP THE SNAKE!!

    Always loved the churches too that had the sheets on the front roll in case one of the sisters fell out in the spirit and had skirt alert issues… I say if God was IN IT…that would not be a Problem!!!

    Just Saying!!!

    What say YOU!!!

    Any of YOU!!!

    Happy Fathers Day!!!

  203. CVH wrote:

    Sexy Kitten (#195) - glad to hear that.

  204. sorrysocynical wrote:

    Wade…

    The origin of snake handeling began in the appalachian mountains. When the “holiness” or “Sanctificaton” movement began, and believers started claiming for the first time that they had “power” with God, many people hated and despised them for these claims. While holiness saints would be praising and worshiping God, ruthless men would throw snakes into the open windows to try to see if they “Really had the power”. God would supernaturally protect these men and wome, as they would pick up the snakes, and continue dancing, shouting, and anything else that they felt necissary to worshp God. They would throw the snakes out the window and be unharmed. This became a “wonder” that caused many people to come to their church who were skeptics befoe. Unfortunately, this became a tradition and carried on as a “sign” of the believers. The word “Take UP” used by mark is quite similar in greek to the word “Destroy” that Christ used pertaining to the works of the devil. I have many serpent handeling friends, and my question to them has always been “If you will take up a serpent, why wont you tread upon a scorpion”?
    However, you’re wrong that they feed the snakes to make them calm..often they arent fed for days and are taken up. God protects them, and the purpose is unknown, unless it’s just mercy to the ignorant.

  205. weber wrote:

    Sorrysocynical, what does it profit you to speak with tongues? How does it improve your life here on earth? Are you any more spiritual than someone who does not speak in tongues? Does God hear the prayer in English or Spanish? Does he care what tongue is used or does He just want to communicate with us? Will the folks who think tongues have ceased have the same rewards in heaven? Im just asking.

  206. Wade wrote:

    SSC… been in 3 services and in 2 other churches for different reasons and they had all been recently fed… is where my experience comes from… then there was the case of a local minister who talked his wife into taking up the serpent and he set her up by not feeding the snakes… she got bit and he convinced her to pray instead of seeking medical help… she died… he was charge with murder and is doing time!

    Can you please comment on the sheets on the front role???

    Hope every body has a fun Fathers Day!!

  207. Wade wrote:

    oh SSC…thanks for the history lesson… A&E did not have that kinda detail!!

  208. Joe wrote:

    ssc- This will be my last post. I do not appreciate being called a liar. I am not now, nor ever have been, a baptist.

    For your information, neither is John MacArthur- one of the best conservative theological Bible students and preachers today. I just got a version of his new study Bible. I had not looked at what he had written about tongues until this morning. Now remember- he is NOT a baptist. He is a student of the Bible. He knows what the Bible says, what it teaches. And here is what he writes about tongues…

    “On the other hand, Paul uses a different word for the end of the gift of languages, thus indicating it will “cease” by itself, as it did at the end of the apostolic age. It will not end by the coming of the “perfect”, for it will already have ceased. The uniqueness of the sign gift of languages and its interpretation was, as all sign gifts, to authenticate the message and messengers of the gospel before the NT was completed (Heb. 2:3-4). “Tongues” was also limited by being a judicial sign from the God of Israel’s judgment. “Tongues” were also not a sign to believers, but to unbelievers, specifically unbelieving Jews. Tongues also ceased because there was no need to verify the true messages from God once the Scripture was given; it became the standard by which all are deemed true. “Tongues” was a means of edification in a way far inferior to preaching and teaching. In fact, 1 Cor. 14 was designed to show the Corinthians, so preoccupied with tongues, that it was an inferior means of communication (vv 1-12), an inferior means of praise (vv 13-19), and an inferior means of evangelism (vv 20-25). Prophecy was, and is, far superior (vv 1, 3-6, 24, 29, 31, 39). That tongues have ceased should be clear from their absence from any other books in the NT, except Acts. Tongues ceased to be an issue of record or practice in the early church, as the Scripture was being written. That tongues has ceased should be clear also from its absence through church history since the first century, appearing only sporadically and then only in questionable groups.”

    ssc- neither of us is a baptist. I had not ever read his thoughts on this subject, yet he stated EXACTLY what I have, only more succinctly.

    By the way…”cease” in 1 Cor. 13:8 means to “halt, stop abruptly, quit, desist, come to an abrupt end”. It is not only a totally different word for what Paul uses for “knowledge” and “prophecy”, it is the ONLY time, as far as I could find, that it is used in the entire NT. So it is a special word, with a very special meaning.

    And Acts 19 proves MY point, not yours. You need to read a bit more carefully.
    These folks were disciples of John. Verse 2 proves conclusively that they really did not fully understand the Christian faith. And why was this?
    BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS! This is the 3rd and last time “tongues” was used in Acts, and as I have pointed out, all 3 cases were to prove TO JEWS that this gospel of Christ was the real deal. It has absolutely and unequivocally nothing to do with what you have stated. As Paul stated in 1 Cor. 14:21-22. “tongues” was a temporary prohesied sign, only for unbelieving Jews.

    Now then- if you wish to continue this discussion, consider taking back the “liar” comment, and I’ll consider it.
    John MacArthur is not a baptist either.

  209. sorrysocynical wrote:

    Also, Joey…

    1 Cor 14:2 “He that speaks in an unknown tongue, speaks not unto man, but unto God, no man can understand him because in the spirit he is speaking mysteries”….

    Can you not see that What Paul was speaking about in 1 Cor 14:2 is MUCH DIFFERENT than the tongues he was speaking of before which is a gift to speak other dialects for the sake of preaching?? He FLAT OUT SAID, that it would be “not understood by man”…but a gift of tongues WILL be understood by man.

    1 Cor 14:13 “He that speaks in an unknown tongue, edifies himself”….how can you say that is abolished?? There isn’t ONE SCRIPTURE that speaks to that end.

    1 Cor 14:14 “For If I pray in an unknown tongue, MY SPIRIT IS PRAYING, but my mind isn’t understanding the words”…..He never discounted praying in the Holy Spirit, he was trying to bring balance to people who ONLY prayed in “Tongues”, and never prayed with verbal understanding.

    In verse 5 he said “I wish you would all speak in tongues, but even more so that you would prophesy”…he was saying, I want you to speak in tongues, because thats the initial evidence that you have been baptized in the Holy Ghost, but I also want you to seek to prophesy, because that edifies others also.

    You’re taking verses that Paul supposedly was “Negative” towards tongues, and not counter-balancing it with the positive ones. You are ignoring certain verses to fit your tradition.

  210. Wade wrote:

    I believe dr joe is not a Baptist… he does not seem to believe Grace plus or minus nothing gets ya in to heaven… he likes that PATTERN thing after you recieve salvation… So I believe he is not a Baptist…

    rr… Thanks… I was going by the spelling CVH provided and what was found on line during the research project CVH commissioned!!

  211. Joe wrote:

    Wade- if you mean by “grace plus/minus nothing gets you into heaven” as meaning “once saved/always saved”, or the eternal security of the believer, that is what I believe.

    There definitely IS a pattern after salvation; “good works” in the NT always follows salvation.

    SSC- waiting on you.

  212. cynical one wrote:

    sorrysocynical #191 — “Jan Crouch once said ‘The Pauline epistles arent meant as authority, we ONLY need the teachings of Christ’. ”

    WOW!!! That is so wrong, and on SO many levels. First, imploring the name of Jan Crouch. What a heretic!

    Second, ANYONE stating we don’t need the epistles, only the teachings of Christ. That goes against nearly 2,000 years of Christian teaching, buy every Christian denomination known to man.

    Third, if we don’t need Paul’s epistles, why are you continuing to quote them?

    WOW!!!

  213. CVH wrote:

    Wade,

    I was going to mention that she spells her name with a “z” now instead of the “s” when she was younger, but I didn’t want to appear to be too much of a Suz(s)an Speer geek. Too late1

  214. Derek wrote:

    Maybe we should start a thread called “SG Hotties That Make You Speak In Tongues” LOL

  215. Linda Dillon wrote:

    There is an area Baptist minister who is very big on John MacArthur. He uses most of his Bible studies. I took a class there; however, he is teaching the doctrine of election which he states means that God chooses some for Hell, some for Heaven. It has caused great turmoil, and a lot of people leaving the church.

    I just can’t buy that. The Bible says “Whosoever will” and that is what I believe.

  216. wackythinker wrote:

    I’ve noticed over the years that some folks think all Baptists believe the same, all Nazarenes believe the same, all Church Of God people believe the same (even though there are 1,400 different denominations with that name), all Presbyterian, all Catholics, et al. And in my 50+ years, I’ve learned that’s far from the truth.

    Prime example: my dad (Nazarene) thinks all Baptists believe you can do anything you want, and be ok. He probably heard some Baptist preacher say something to that affect 60 years ago, and assumes they all believe that. Not true.

    And please don’t mix “holiness” denominations with “pentecostal” or “charismatic”. They are not the same.

  217. cynical one wrote:

    Why can’t we dwell more on the things we agree on, and less on what we disagree on? Or is that just too boring?

  218. Tp wrote:

    Does anybody know if Living Waters Trio still singing.I’ve tried to go to their web site and it is not working? I’m trying to find up coming shows and I cannot find them either.

  219. Joe wrote:

    Linda “215-

    I went through the MacArthur Bible last night, looking at the passages on election, reading his textual notes. I honestly, so far, have not seen anything controversial.

    It may actually be that this Baptist minister is a 5-point Calvinist, and is taking something he might have thought he heard or read from JM, to try to bolster his teachings.

    Teaching election along with or part of salvation by grace is most dangerous. These people feel that since “only the elect shall be saved”, there is no sense fulfilling the great commission, because the Lord will save Who He has elected, and it is not our worry.

    Only one problem. We have no clue who “the elect” are, until we get saved, and understand that, by grace, I’m one of them.

    The best illustration I ever heard was of a picture of salvation’s Door (Christ Himself). As you stated, over the Door is “Whosoever will may come”. By grace, and immeasurable mercy, I am allowed to come by faith, through that Door, and be saved. Once in, once saved, I turn around and read what is written over the INSIDE of the door: “chosen in Christ, from before the foundation of the world”. THEN, I understand the secret of election. It is a family secret, for all who have been truly born again by grace.

    But it is not for our burden to see lost souls saved. We are to preach Christ crucified, and what they do with the message is between their souls and God.

  220. Linda Dillon wrote:

    Joe, - #219

    When this minister was hired, he said he was Calvinist, but the congregation did not totally understand what that meant. We were doing the Beth Moore studies, and then he wanted to do all John MacArthur. There is some information on John MacArthur’s website if you search for election that seems to indicate he is thinking in that area.

    I like to discuss (not argue) points; however, the more I researched this point, the more depressed and sad I got. I had to back away. It was pulling me down. As the assistant pastor said one Sunday, if we really believe that God sends some to hell, some to heaven, then we may as well went fishing this morning. It’s hard for me to understand why anyone would even bother with church activities if this decision had already been made. They say that God is sovereign and he can do anything he wants. I know God is sovereign and can do anything he wants, but he loved us so much he sent his only Son to take our sins upon himself. Yes, he could choose to send me to Hell arbitrarily because he is sovereign, but the loving God I know gave me an option. It’s up to me which option I choose to take. If I don’t believe that, then I just don’t see the point.

    I’m not knocking John MacArthur. I have his Study Bible as well, and listen to him on his radio program; however, this theology baffles me to say the least.

  221. Joe wrote:

    Linda-

    If you’re a “5-point Calvinist”, you really cannot accept the grace of God, nor the free will of man, nor the invitation to all to trust the Savior. You’ve locked yourself into a most uncomfortable box.

    MacArthur also has a real problem with the eternal Sonship of the Lord Jesus.
    He apparently doesn’t believe He became the Son of God, until He bacame Son of Man.

    However, on tongues, he is spot on. Guess it proves that we all have to be very careful who we listen to, who we read, and check everything out with the Word of God itself- the final arbiter.
    Thanks for your comments.

  222. CVH wrote:

    May be the last word on this ponderous thread…

    Suzan Speer is still hot.

    We now return you to your regular blog.

  223. Wade wrote:

    CVH… yes she looks like a hottie… think I am going to send a reel to her talent agency… I listened to a bunch of the voices she had on the site and I think I could hang with all of them!!

    I am seeing 224 post on the main page but only see 222 on the thread. What’s up with that???

    But Karen Peck Gooochy Goo was always nice. Actually dated a girl named Karen Peck and when I heard the name of the new Soprano I went to see her and was surprised there were 2 HOT Karen Pecks… one looks like Amy Grant and one looks like Karen Peck!!

  224. sorrysocynical wrote:

    Cynical..I was making a point on the immaturity of today’s church, you read it wrong…of course I believe in the authority of all sciptures.

  225. A wrote:

    I wonder if God would read these comments.. ?

  226. Wade wrote:

    A… God & dr joe reads everything!!

  227. iluvgospel wrote:

    Dear Heath (#25) Mind your own stinking business! I finally had a chance to talk to Ron and Trent Adams. Truth: Trent DID sign a contract with Ron. They discussed the best way to end it, and Ron let the young man go, chalking it up to his youth. Truth: Trent Adams is back with Ron, doing a fabulous job. He and Ron have a great relationship. Truth: Trent is a married man who is in love with his wife. I don’t need to know any more details and anyone who spreads any more than that is either a liar, a slanderous gossipmonger, or in your case, printing libelous twaddle. (do you even know what that means?)

  228. iluvgospel wrote:

    Don’t tell me you know what that means AFTER you google it, either! Although it might be good to expand some vocab.

  229. sgmapopper wrote:

    So, Cincy SGfan, commenting on both Suzan AND Karlye- if I hear correctly Karlye is represented by Suzan’s agency out of Nashville. Ironic isn’t it? Never thought I’d see an open thread all on the “hottness of SG babes” but hey! Everythings gotta have a first right? Look up both of the women on facebook.

  230. cam44 wrote:

    How about Michaela Brown?? Versus the previous “future” girls?

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