Comments on: Sonic Maximization and the sg arms race http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/ Criticism and commentary on southern gospel music Wed, 23 May 2012 19:06:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3 By: Barry Weeks http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-948950 Barry Weeks Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:44:26 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-948950 I'm actually glad that you guys are commenting on the mastering and production of Southern Gospel records. I agree that the Mixes and Mastering needs to breath a bit more in stead of being so squashed and perfect. I am a big fan of southern Gospel music and I'm always trying to improve what I do so I will for work harder to make records sound more natural in the future. Thanks again for your thoughts. Blessings Barry I’m actually glad that you guys are commenting on the mastering and production of Southern Gospel records. I agree that the Mixes and Mastering needs to breath a bit more in stead of being so squashed and perfect. I am a big fan of southern Gospel music and I’m always trying to improve what I do so I will for work harder to make records sound more natural in the future. Thanks again for your thoughts. Blessings
Barry

]]> By: weber http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-932374 weber Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:41:20 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-932374 #39 I think your math is a little fuzzy. People put 2.00 in the plate when a group fails to do the job, and if the group showed up with tracks, their paying for exactly what your giving them. Besides this, its really silly to depend on the fans to subsidize the group. Why? because they will not do it, never have. Putting all ones eggs in Southern Gospel Music is stupidity in its highest form. Let me put it this way, if your group cant afford a piano player, get a part time job, working Mon-Wed, 10 hr. days and that may create some cash flow for that much needed piano player. I can tell you from MUCH experience when you offer more to the people, they will respond. #39 I think your math is a little fuzzy. People put 2.00 in the plate when a group fails to do the job, and if the group showed up with tracks, their paying for exactly what your giving them. Besides this, its really silly to depend on the fans to subsidize the group. Why? because they will not do it, never have. Putting all ones eggs in Southern Gospel Music is stupidity in its highest form. Let me put it this way, if your group cant afford a piano player, get a part time job, working Mon-Wed, 10 hr. days and that may create some cash flow for that much needed piano player. I can tell you from MUCH experience when you offer more to the people, they will respond.

]]> By: Casual Observer http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-931575 Casual Observer Mon, 29 Jun 2009 02:39:19 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-931575 Very few producers produce...in the way that "Producer Groupie" describes them. And for that matter, very few A&R Directors perform what their title suggests - "Artists & Repertoire." If choosing the right songs is not paramount, then nothing else matters. A producer may be able to create blinding arrangements and sonic marvels, but it's all "lipstick on a pig" if the song, itself, is weak. And most A&R Directors should drop the "R" from their title. They either wouldn't know a solid, marketable, song if it slapped the toupe off their head, or they don't have the guts to stand up to artists and demand excellence. More often than not, no one's steering the ship. Very few producers produce…in the way that “Producer Groupie” describes them. And for that matter, very few A&R Directors perform what their title suggests - “Artists & Repertoire.” If choosing the right songs is not paramount, then nothing else matters. A producer may be able to create blinding arrangements and sonic marvels, but it’s all “lipstick on a pig” if the song, itself, is weak. And most A&R Directors should drop the “R” from their title. They either wouldn’t know a solid, marketable, song if it slapped the toupe off their head, or they don’t have the guts to stand up to artists and demand excellence. More often than not, no one’s steering the ship.

]]> By: Ed http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-930486 Ed Sun, 28 Jun 2009 06:26:54 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-930486 Ok, Webb, the fulltime top tier groups will hire a piano player when people like you will get off of their pocket books and stop putting $2.00 in the offering plate. It comes down to basic math. If the people aren't giving, then it's either keep costs down or shut the whole thing down. Ok, Webb, the fulltime top tier groups will hire a piano player when people like you will get off of their pocket books and stop putting $2.00 in the offering plate.
It comes down to basic math. If the people aren’t giving, then it’s either keep costs down or shut the whole thing down.

]]> By: weber http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-930220 weber Sun, 28 Jun 2009 01:04:08 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-930220 Yes, stay home till you find a piano player. This has nothing to do with Gods call on your life as a singer, im puzzled by that remark. Piano players, musicians, are not luxurys, in Southern Gospel Music, they should be required. I will put a good quartet with a live three piece band up against any group traveling today using tracks. I have seen groups that are part-time, with good four part harmony along with a band absolutely smoke and blow off the stage many of the top tier groups traveling today. It really makes a difference. Like I said, where God leads, He provides, let Him provide you with a piano player. Yes, stay home till you find a piano player. This has nothing to do with Gods call on your life as a singer, im puzzled by that remark. Piano players, musicians, are not luxurys, in Southern Gospel Music, they should be required. I will put a good quartet with a live three piece band up against any group traveling today using tracks. I have seen groups that are part-time, with good four part harmony along with a band absolutely smoke and blow off the stage many of the top tier groups traveling today. It really makes a difference. Like I said, where God leads, He provides, let Him provide you with a piano player.

]]> By: Producer groupie http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-929730 Producer groupie Sat, 27 Jun 2009 15:52:21 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-929730 Key quote on original post: "I think their last few projects are so pitch perfect and so sonically maximized that they leave the listener aurally tired after listening to an entire project." This is the "wall of sound" used by some producers. Some listeners like it, and some don't. Barry Weeks produced the last few Brian Free projects, and with him, more is more. He's going to push it sonically and fill every nook and cranny. He grew up with SG, but he also writes and produces many different genres. So his production style is informed by more progressive types of music. Become an educated listener. Compare the sonic qualities of different CDs for different artists (for example, the quality for ease of long sessions of listening with headphones), and see what wears well. Then tell the artists which producers (as well as the engineer and mastering specialist they use) you enjoy most. Maybe on the next project, they'll try a new producer and you'll see a difference. In some cases, it's great that artists are attached at the hip to certain producers. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But in other cases, it can keep the artists from seeing themselves in new ways and finding a fresh take on their style. And some artists have such long-standing patterns with their producers that it is impossible for them to see they're in a rut. If the song choices and sources have slipped, the pattern has become too set in stone to change. Sometimes a new producer can have more leverage to tell a group the truth about their bad choices and help them make better choices. (Of course, if the producer doesn't know a great song from a mediocre one, then it's a lost cause.) Key quote on original post:

“I think their last few projects are so pitch perfect and so sonically maximized that they leave the listener aurally tired after listening to an entire project.”

This is the “wall of sound” used by some producers.

Some listeners like it, and some don’t.

Barry Weeks produced the last few Brian Free projects, and with him, more is more. He’s going to push it sonically and fill every nook and cranny. He grew up with SG, but he also writes and produces many different genres. So his production style is informed by more progressive types of music.

Become an educated listener. Compare the sonic qualities of different CDs for different artists (for example, the quality for ease of long sessions of listening with headphones), and see what wears well. Then tell the artists which producers (as well as the engineer and mastering specialist they use) you enjoy most. Maybe on the next project, they’ll try a new producer and you’ll see a difference.

In some cases, it’s great that artists are attached at the hip to certain producers. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. But in other cases, it can keep the artists from seeing themselves in new ways and finding a fresh take on their style.

And some artists have such long-standing patterns with their producers that it is impossible for them to see they’re in a rut. If the song choices and sources have slipped, the pattern has become too set in stone to change. Sometimes a new producer can have more leverage to tell a group the truth about their bad choices and help them make better choices. (Of course, if the producer doesn’t know a great song from a mediocre one, then it’s a lost cause.)

]]> By: metoo http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-928300 metoo Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:53:42 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-928300 RK - you are right. "sounds less natural and out of place with the accompaniment." RK - you are right. “sounds less natural and out of place with the accompaniment.”

]]> By: RK http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-927865 RK Fri, 26 Jun 2009 04:31:48 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-927865 On recent BF&A recordings, the voices do sound very "digitized" or "sonically maximized". You are correct that they take such enhancements to very limit and, sometimes, beyond. I've downloaded several of their recent tracks from iTunes; when I listen to them on my Bose SoundDock, the extreme clarity of the audio speakers makes the voices sound very mechanical. While the same speakers can make many southern gospel mp3's sound almost sound live and in person, BFA's sound less natural and more out of place with the accompaniment. On recent BF&A recordings, the voices do sound very “digitized” or “sonically maximized”. You are correct that they take such enhancements to very limit and, sometimes, beyond.

I’ve downloaded several of their recent tracks from iTunes; when I listen to them on my Bose SoundDock, the extreme clarity of the audio speakers makes the voices sound very mechanical. While the same speakers can make many southern gospel mp3’s sound almost sound live and in person, BFA’s sound less natural and more out of place with the accompaniment.

]]> By: cdguy http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-927225 cdguy Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:26:00 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-927225 #20 Thom and DBM, Don't the Primitives do that about every year or so? #20 Thom and DBM,
Don’t the Primitives do that about every year or so?

]]> By: David Bruce Murray http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-926665 David Bruce Murray Thu, 25 Jun 2009 05:17:31 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-926665 #20 Thom, Mickey's company already has a CD out like you're talking about. The Cumberland Quartet recorded an acoustic hymns CD a few years ago. I don't think they got much mileage out of it, though. I thought it would make a good series of concept recordings. It looks like that was what they were going for with the packaging. Didn't seem to catch on, though... See: http://www.crossroadsmusic.com/release/cumberlandquartet/CR07392/ #20 Thom,
Mickey’s company already has a CD out like you’re talking about. The Cumberland Quartet recorded an acoustic hymns CD a few years ago. I don’t think they got much mileage out of it, though. I thought it would make a good series of concept recordings. It looks like that was what they were going for with the packaging. Didn’t seem to catch on, though…

See:
http://www.crossroadsmusic.com/release/cumberlandquartet/CR07392/

]]> By: quartet-man http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-926653 quartet-man Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:46:11 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-926653 #27 Ann, that is just crazy talk. ;-) #30 Cynical One, and if I am correct, I believe our very own Ann Downing and the Downings were the background singers on the "in-concert" version of King Jesus. :) #27 Ann, that is just crazy talk. ;-)

#30 Cynical One, and if I am correct, I believe our very own Ann Downing and the Downings were the background singers on the “in-concert” version of King Jesus. :)

]]> By: wanderer http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-926129 wanderer Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:47:37 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-926129 #30. Oh I disagree. I think the majority would love to see a live band. They may not realize it, but trust me they would. I go to SG concerts, CCM concerts...I like it all. I've seen Zoegirl, Big Daddy Weave, Newsboys and just this weekend I saw what's left of Audio Adrenaline. All had live bands (except Zoegirl). Also have been to see Gaither, Lumber River Quartet, Kevin Spencer and Friends, Ann D and the Oaks recently. Years ago remember the Speers with a band, The Goffs and others. Concerts with live music is always better, but I understand that not everyone can afford a band. As I watched Audio A this past weekend and the band was putting the big endings on their songs, I remember that kind of excitement when I went to a SG concert. I will still go to the SG concert, because that is my first love. I love the harmony...the tradition. #30. Oh I disagree. I think the majority would love to see a live band. They may not realize it, but trust me they would. I go to SG concerts, CCM concerts…I like it all. I’ve seen Zoegirl, Big Daddy Weave, Newsboys and just this weekend I saw what’s left of Audio Adrenaline. All had live bands (except Zoegirl). Also have been to see Gaither, Lumber River Quartet, Kevin Spencer and Friends, Ann D and the Oaks recently. Years ago remember the Speers with a band, The Goffs and others. Concerts with live music is always better, but I understand that not everyone can afford a band. As I watched Audio A this past weekend and the band was putting the big endings on their songs, I remember that kind of excitement when I went to a SG concert. I will still go to the SG concert, because that is my first love. I love the harmony…the tradition.

]]> By: cynical one http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-926045 cynical one Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:27:22 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-926045 Ann, I'm with you. And if the listener doesn't care for whatever that artist choses (or is able) to use, then shut up and stay at home. My opinion is that, if you have a really good sound person, and the singer's a great communicator, it really won't matter to 95% of the audience, whether they're using tracks or live instruments. There will always be some who think there something inherently wrong with using tracks, just as there will always thing there's something satanic about using drums and/or bass guitar. And q-man's right about the Oaks' recordings in those days. Before I got to that paragraph, I had already thought about their recording of "I Know", in the same vein. Personally, I especially enjoy artists who can mix tracks with live instruments, but not every artist or group has that luxury. And for most, in today's economy, a band is a luxury. Ann, I’m with you. And if the listener doesn’t care for whatever that artist choses (or is able) to use, then shut up and stay at home.

My opinion is that, if you have a really good sound person, and the singer’s a great communicator, it really won’t matter to 95% of the audience, whether they’re using tracks or live instruments.

There will always be some who think there something inherently wrong with using tracks, just as there will always thing there’s something satanic about using drums and/or bass guitar.

And q-man’s right about the Oaks’ recordings in those days. Before I got to that paragraph, I had already thought about their recording of “I Know”, in the same vein.

Personally, I especially enjoy artists who can mix tracks with live instruments, but not every artist or group has that luxury. And for most, in today’s economy, a band is a luxury.

]]> By: Tim http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-926036 Tim Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:07:07 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-926036 It's sure not like it was "back in the day", when you could hmmm...........go to a Hinson's concert with their Kick A band and get a better show live than any "technology ridden" studio recording. Of course, Kenny Hinson didn't need any "tweaks" in the studio and who cares of Yvonne was off pitch... they still NAILED it. It’s sure not like it was “back in the day”, when you could hmmm………..go to a Hinson’s concert with their Kick A band and get a better show live than any “technology ridden” studio recording. Of course, Kenny Hinson didn’t need any “tweaks” in the studio and who cares of Yvonne was off pitch… they still NAILED it.

]]> By: Jim2 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-925975 Jim2 Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:22:49 +0000 http://averyfineline.com/2009/06/22/sonic-maximization-and-the-sg-arms-race/#comment-925975 Preach it, Ann! Preach it, Ann!

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