Future vision

Offered without comment.

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  1. Ron F wrote:

    I am a Radio DJ and a SG Promoter, The ratings on my show are up and I promote 3 big concerts a year and so far the crowds are around 900 for each show. I think Bill Bailey has large crowds. If you bring in quality groups the folks will come.

  2. irishlad wrote:

    1 not all doom and gloom Ron?…very glad to hear it,

  3. KC wrote:

    And 900 people = a crowd? Bless.

  4. Ron F wrote:

    KC I agree 900 is not a great crowd but I advertise hard and heavy , in Birmingham AL. But about 900 is the most I can get out of them. I would love to have 3,000 but they just don’t come.

  5. Ron F wrote:

    KC also Bill Bailey brought in Gold City, McKameys, The Perrys, and the Inspirations to Birmingham AL, he had about 1000 people. Also KC I would love to hear more about the concerts that you promote or attend , tell us what you think we can do to get more people in the seats. As Ross Perot says “Im all Ears”.

  6. KC wrote:

    Hello Ron F. You’re not going to hear about any concerts I promote. Because, just as I have an opinion that, say, people eat less Wonder bread, doesn’t mean I am going to open a bakery. Or that, say, maybe I think less people shop at Sears these days, doesn’t mean I am opening a department store. You are to be commended for getting 900 people to your concert, I suppose. My thought behind this topic is simply: it’s okay to love southern gospel music and remember the days of going to coliseums where one or a few quartet(s) (like The Cathedrals, The Kingsmen - w/ Jim Hamill and Anthony Burger, The Goodmans, etc.) could pack it out, with thousands of people. But lets not fool ourselves by thinking southern gospel is currently taking the music industry at large by storm. Even Bill Gaither, the last time I saw the Homecoming crew in Richmond, Virginia, in a coliseum that holds 12K, “looked” like maybe 1000+ people were there - and the energy was just off that night. Then I saw his show in St. Louis over this past Christmas, and it looked nearly sold out - although they did the half coliseum set-up, so it was only about 6K people. My opinion is that, more people came out because it was Christmas music. I digress, because I drink too much Gaither koolaid as it is. But, I also feel like he does well (or has done well) because he does put on a classy “show” and has multiple artists - take out any one of those acts, even The Isaacs, or David Phelps, which audiences go whacky for in a Gaither show, and they couldn’t pack out a coliseum like that.

    I think it’s okay to accept that types of music has it’s heyday. Unfortunately, I don’t see huge excitement across the world for a ton of current southern gospel acts. We don’t have a lot of Adeles in sg at the moment! It is also my opinion that soundtracks (aka karaoke style music) doesn’t help the southern gospel cause along. Nor does it help when groups get up at NQC and promote their political beliefs, and sell Republican propaganda - it alienates people. Not all Christians loved George W Bush. Not all NQC goers wanted to witness the fiasco of Sarah Palin being there. It’s silly to mix all that. It’s bad for the sg music industry - yet groups and decision makers continue to do that kind of crap. Another reason I think Bill Gaither does so well is his concerts leave all that stuff out. And it’s a genius business move. It’s best to wonder what a group’s political beliefs are - because then people can live in their own heads and imagine ‘they believe just like I do’ and smile and all is well with the world. Let the words of the songs and the music deliver the message.

    I also feel like we shouldn’t overlook the age span of most southern gospel audiences. Take NQC for example. I’m sorry, but it looks like a nursing home field trip at times. And I don’t mean that negatively - I just mean it in that we can’t overlook reality. It’s almost like southern gospel is a genre of music with a devoted cult following, that’s unfortunately fading off into the sunset. But as Dr. Seuss said, “Don’t cry because it’s over, smile because it happened.” And if you have 900 at a concert, and a few hear the gospel, and experience the true Love of Christ, and feeling that southern gospel can only give, then you should feel awesome about what you’re doing. We just can’t use 900/1000 people as a success metric on whether or not this music is thriving like it once did.

    Obviously, I’m full of opinions. It’s a complex and complicated topic. And I mean no harm. I love southern gospel music. Just not really into the other things that occur at concerts, like I mentioned above. Like Gandhi said, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” That’s how I feel about southern gospel artists when they go off on unnecessary tangents and then crank up their next soundtrack. Just being honest and keeping it real. :) Now pardon me as I turn my iPad to some southern gospel music of the past - next up, Vestal and Howard!

  7. weber wrote:

    Want to get more butts in seats? Thats easy,
    Casting Crowns, Mercy Me, Chris Tomlin..
    that should do it.

  8. musicmannowincountry wrote:

    KC, Would you say Jay Z is about 10 times as popular as — (random group) Greater Vision.

  9. KC wrote:

    #8 - why ask questions you know the answer to? :) If you’d like to compare the two, here you are:


  10. Ode wrote:

    Asking “where is SG music heading?” is like inquiring what’s the average temperature of all the patients in a hospital, including the morgue. SG is not homogeneous, some groups do well, keep selves on the road, stay above water on a cruise, get releases out and keep manning the stage, if with ever-changing personnel, others are barely making it or altogether quit.

    KC made a good post outlining the general reasons. I second all, marveling at how artists seem to neglect the importance of a good image. I will never get you, goyim, I swear, never. Why shoot yourselves in the foot?! Want to run your mouth and say things that can ruin your career? Secure your FB page like a bank vault; watch what leaves your mouth. You hate Gaither or gays, etc. – do it privately to your heart content, make a voodoo doll of Mark Lowry, stick pins in it, just don’t spill your guts out!

    Flipping thru public pages of some artists/bands I am really shocked what career killing things they allow themselves to say. Avery’s blog is a priasefest in comparison.

    Artsits, shut up or be neutral about politics or difference in denominational beliefs! And by good imagemaking I don’t mean the culture of sweeping it all under the rug, and equating lying and fake façade with holiness, that culture is over. My gen and younger WILL NEVER buy into your hypocrisy.

  11. Wade wrote:

    Ode post those links to the artist pages…. that would be fun…

  12. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    Has it occurred to anyone that the country as a whole is worried about having an imbalance of elderly and young people… in the elderly direction? And that this should be GOOD news for SG?

  13. Wade wrote:

    Very true Brooke… see we agreed!!!

  14. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    Just to make myself clear, I don’t agree with the country’s proposed solutions to this problem (which basically boil down to removing Grandma’s feeding tube and helping old people die quicker). I was merely making a demographic point and noting the irony in this particular complaint about SoGo.

  15. Hector Luna wrote:

    #8 - I love GV. But I’d say “10″ is extremely weak. By facebook “likes”, it’s about 180,000 times more. Which was actually less than what I had previously expected. Number the Twitter followers, with slight decreasing alterations to old folks who don’t know what a twitter is. I don’t think this news has shocked anyone.

  16. Anon wrote:

    Do you think you can give me any pointers on promoting? I think 900 is a relatively good crowd. Mostly because I sing on all of Ron F’s programs. The honest-to-God truth is that all genres of music are struggling for ticket sales. But, like all aspects of life, things are relative to areas and places in the world. For Alabama and Georgia, 900 people attending a concert of two soloists is pretty good. You are right. All genres of music have its hey-day. Or could it be that we in Gospel music just accept that fact out of laziness or refusal to conform to some of the musical and clothing trends of modern pop music? Somebody who wears a suit and tie is bound to sell more records than somebody in a tailored dress shirt, nice designer jeans, a chain, and a casual sportcoat. Is this right? I, as an artist, have worn both, depending on the venue and crowd. Also, people in the church have gotten this idea that if it is Gospel music, it should be free. You should not have to pay for a CD or another product. Yet the same people will pay 80 dollars to go see Adele or Lady Antebellum and spend at least 50 dollars on CD’s and other products. One reason for this is the lack of showmanship that is accepted or allowed in the church, which is where most of the Gospel concerts today take place. Why can’t we as Southern Gospel musicians and singers conform to some of the modern secular music traditions and styles without compromising the message and spirituality of the music. If some of us got our head out of the sand and out of our comfort zones, we would win a whole lot more people to Christ.

  17. Anon2 wrote:

    Let me guess. Anon is none other than Ron F son. The 2 soloists you speak of is not the draw. It matters who the headliner is. Thats what brings in the 900 yall are talking about im sure.

  18. Ron F wrote:

    Anon2 , I have to tell you one of those soloist is Guy Penrod.

  19. KC wrote:


    Well here is my train of thought on this topic. To answer your question properly, one should come up with an entire business plan. This won’t be that – but I can brainstorm my thoughts on the subject. ☺

    When I look at the history of southern gospel, the artists that “rise to the top” (popularity-wise) in my mind are the ones that were the most, umm, unique – like J.D. Sumner (the Elvis years didn’t hurt), the Statesmen, Blackwood Brothers, Happy Goodman Family (size alone makes them stand out), Dottie Rambo (her music crossed genres, Whitney Houston doing one of hers was most excellent). A cool thing about Whitney recording I Go To The Rock, in a style that is used in thousands of Black churches across America, is the exposure it gave southern gospel. When my Black friends are confused about any reference I may make to a southern gospel song, if I bring up “Dottie Rambo was from southern gospel” – then they typically respond, oh?! Nice.

    With society going in the direction of more tolerance and acceptance of gays and Blacks, and the focus huge companies put on diversity initiatives in corporate America, I can’t imagine southern gospel and the mindset of it’s main audience being on the right side of history – and therefore on the wrong side of the future. It may be that southern gospel should learn how to highlight the best of it’s awesome history of songs, allow them to be recorded in such a way that brings new life to them and focuses on talent and artistry, creating an experience audiences will feel and want to pay for – the reason they pay to see Adele is for the expectation of tremendous talent in front of their eyes, on stage, live, without canned music.

    Or, use Bluegrass for example. Hearing new younger bluegrass artists record that genre of music with fresh instrumentation and how they bring new life and breath to lyrics we’re familiar with, on bluegrass/country classics from yesteryear – they are preserving the songs and they live on, because they acquire a new audience of the current generation, all the while giving older Bluegrass lovers the thrill of hearing their favorite music recreated, and adored more than ever. Southern gospel could learn a lot from that from how that played out for Bluegrass music.

    Can you imagine hearing remakes of classics from say, the Rambos, the way her brilliant lyrics were crafted – I’ve heard Alison Krauss & The Cox Family sing Remind Me, Dear Lord – hearing a whole other style of music sing it is refreshing – too bad it’s like hearing your cousin sing your song, because it’s so similar to southern gospel – what if there were another style of music redoing the song? Can you imagine if there were tribute albums of yesteryear’s best stuff (the Rambos, the Hinsons, quartet classics by types like the Cathedrals, something along the line of how Ernie Haas and Signature Sound did with their DVD of all Cathedrals remakes) – but there needs to be talent big enough, or a production of sorts, to draw out the masses, in my opinion.

    Production of sorts – brings to mind that southern gospel should progress with the times and not think it bad to create shows, and not just concerts by mediocre voices singing to soundtracks, to draw a more exposed audience. I personally think it would be awesome if the songs were delivered in a new way, with choreography (again, EHSS come to mind with their choreographed dance moves they do during awesome southern gospel quartet style music that is true to its roots), or in a Broadway style, or in a more contemporary/Christian rock style (which is a style of gospel that does well pulling in huge audiences).

    All this is my opinion. It doesn’t take into account the implied view of Christianity that artists should have in delivering these songs. I’m basing this purely on musical talent…ha!

    Look at how the atmosphere of NQC changes when a legend is acknowledged in the shows, or when Gaither takes the stage and has his mini-Homecoming session for an hour and half – everything about the event feels different for that moment in time – then it goes back to mediocrity. And I don’t mean that disrespectfully. I love southern gospel, obviously. But that’s the energy – it’s a feeling – it’s what you want to capture and build upon to sustain a future of something – what’s exciting about it – what’s real talent. Jason Crabb and his live band come to mind – they’re also amazingly talented in a more broad musical way.

    Mark Lowry and Buddy Greene writing Mary, Did You Know, was most helpful, too – we just need more things like that to happen – so many other non-southern gospel artists have helped make that song huge.

    And my comment above in my first post on this – mixing politics and promoting non-Love-to-all type messages will not help this music to thrive.

    I could go on and on. It’s a huge topic that a blog posting can’t outline thoroughly – but there you have some of my thoughts on it.

  20. ode wrote:

    12,Good point. Ron, I just checked, the Census data proves YGg’s poignant observation - elderly population increased by ab. 31% in just 2 decades. So, without the additional blessing of changed demographics, you would rake in 580-600 tops, not your lavish 900 crowd. God watches over you, dear.

    It gets even better, come to think of it. Back in the day when a patient run a 3 day continuous high fever they’s send for a priest , but today - for virtually unlimited amount of shots from the fountain of youth and longevity, coutresy of modern geriatric science.

    When the sheet music book published by lil racist pig James D Vaughn, one of SG presumed godfathers*, encouraged all good Christian SG fans to “Wake up, America” and join the KKK, if an old fan got sick he would be issued the advanced medical treatments of the day : a bedpan, aspirin and prayers, and usually graduated to heaven relatively fast.

    Now with all the titanium joints, sleep apnea devices and bypasses aimed to keep you breathing as long as possible… don’t worry, Ronnie, your clientele is here to stay. As long as they can fog a mirror, old folks will be happily attending your concerts.

    I am sure once I reach the age of Depends, loose memory and hearing aids, I’ll render the live bands unnecessary, tracks will suffice just great (doesn’t sound sexy, I know, but you should be dead by then, Iladdie :) )

  21. ode wrote:

    oops, missed that in prev post

    *Buy Doug Harrison’s book and learn some interesting factoids. SG had very little true G in it then, just as now :)

  22. Anon2 wrote:

    Ron F, my point exactly. the 2nd soloist didnt bring them in.

  23. carl wrote:

    14, yankeegospelgirl, are you actually Steophen Colbert?

  24. carl wrote:

    oops s/b “Stephen”

  25. Ron F wrote:

    Hey Weber, wonder what the averege Casting Crowns, Chris Tomlin concert crowds are. I would love to know. I know they have alot of the youth Groups in Churches. Another thing we have in Birmingham AL we have too many Promoters, there is a SG Concert in our area almost every weekend.

  26. Wade wrote:

    Ron F weber will know but his group can out sing them ALL!!

  27. John Situmbeko wrote:

    A wise man speaks because he has something to say, but a foolish man speaks because he wants to say something. I have something to say:-)

    Southern Gospel concert attendance has been decreasing for years, that we know. If one claims to love SG and make ridicule of the dwindling attendance to SG concerts, it doesn’t support his claim. Why not support SG by attending the concerts and buying the products to show your love for the music rather than spitting out complaints over the music you love? KC above says political stuff at SG concerts keeps him (and other prospects) away, I doubt it. So Palin attended NQC and spoke there ONCE! Big deal. Is she present at all SG concerts? Not at all. If you quit attending NQC or all SG concerts because of that then you really don’t love SG, or your love for SG is little compared to your hate for Palin. I understand people pay to go hear the Gospel not political agendas, nonetheless, a regular SG concert goer can testify that politics are not incorporated in the concert experience. I believe the NQC invited a govt official to speak at the event because of the greatness of the event, it is a National thing, International event. What words did the govt official speak that so offended the ears of Southern Gospel loving Christ-like Christians to produce such negative reactions? I will ever wonder.

    Whether we like it or not, tracks are here to stay. Morning will eventually sweep the eastern sky, Christ will come and He will find tracks being used on the earth, if we can’t handle that, we then shall murmur till He comes. The world economy will ever be getting worse till Jesus comes=Intensified use of tracks in SG. You may never know even the piano may vanish, let us then enjoy while it is still said “today” soon we will be saying “in the good old days a piano player used to accompany the tracks.”

  28. John Situmbeko wrote:

    Or worse still, we’ll be saying, “In the good old days, there used to be concerts.”

    Another thing I’ve observed is that most artists aren’t appreciated as until they die. This is not only true in circular music but also in SG. Michael Jackson dies and he tops the Billboard charts for weeks. Today people claim they would pay thousands of $ to see the Cathedrals, if they were still at it with Younce and Payne, but I’m 110% sure that even the cathedrals would have 900/1000-6000 (during Christmas) attending their concerts after tiresome promotions. If the best in SG get those figures at their concerts today, including Gaither’s Homecoming crew which is rich in both live and soundtrack musicianship, and has some of the greatest singers on one stage, the cathedrals would be no exception since they too would be among the best. J.D. and the stamps are said to have had live musicians with them, would they still have them today? I doubt it. Just like the rest, they would use tracks or at least some tracks. Even with a live band they would also get the same numbers as the best of today get.

    I conclude that the old days are said to be great because old days are always great, simply because they are old. These days will be referred to as the Good old days some fifty years in the future. They aren’t that great but let them pass, they will be great. Which is a shame because we can enjoy them right now instead of whining about them.

    Let us not wait for our beloved artists to die before we can support and praise their work, let us do it now while we have them. Karaoke or not, they are still in on that stage and giving it their all, physically and spiritually. Whether we criticise or not, thats the best they can offer, we either take it or leave it, so its always wise not to say something when your voice will just cause hurt and no change whatsoever.

  29. Ron F wrote:

    Wade can you say who his group is? Or do you want me to message you on Facebook?

  30. BackwoodsPhilosopher wrote:

    #28: Soundtracks and canned music showcases a lack of artistic integrity. It didn’t help Beyonce at the inauguration and it won’t help struggling Southern Gospel artists.

    Don’t ask me for a ticket price, a donation or an offering….. and then give me a karaoke performance. If I must listen to a soundtrack, then I’ll go to the local Christian bookstore, buy a CD, go home and listen in the comfort of my home, in my fleece pajamas, with a cup of hot chocolate covered in Cool Whip topping.

  31. The Art Coach wrote:

    “The good old days weren’t always good; and tomorrow ain’t as bad as it seems.”
    ~Billy Joel

  32. Wade wrote:

    Ron F… if I knew I would roll it out and scorch ole liar weber… but I don’t know and McCray said he does not remember what the name of the group was and Burman did not know because he stayed on the bus til time to sing!!! lolol ;-)

  33. Chris Henry wrote:

    Being in promotions, I can say I’ve had these very concerns about the future of SG. You really have to pull out all the stops to bring a good number of people out. Even then with EH&SS and the Booths, you won’t see much more than 700 here in central Cali. Then there’s the B list of artists who we hope we can get 150-200 for an evening. There was a time when those groups would get 300, and the big names would draw 700-1000. I can tell you the numbers have dropped.

    And I watch as many artist drop out of SG to spend more time with the family, or they leave for a far better paying oppurtunity, or the job in some way or fashion destroying their family life. It’s a tough life - one that I wonder if I could do it in the name of ministry/entertainer.

    Is the genre dying? I don’t think so. It’s just that the SG economy is shrinking, which means many groups will be sifted as wheat, making way for the strong. It’s the way of the free market. So unless Obama swoops in and subsidizes the industry (which I don’t leave outside the realm of possibility), we’ll see the ecomony of scale slowly chip away at those middle-management groups, leaving behind the A-listers and some church quartets.

  34. Luke wrote:

    10 - It seems to me that SG artists SHOULD be speaking up about homosexuality and other sins. Theoretically, SG groups aren’t in it for the money or career. They’re supposed to be spreading the message of the Gospel. We need more groups like Brian Free and Assurance (they’re the only ones I’ve seen speaking via FB) who will uncompromisingly stand up for the Word of God! It’s not a denominational issue…it’s a Christian issue…and a God issue.

  35. Ron F wrote:

    Come on Luke , I like Brian Free and Assurance ,but they are not the only group standing in the Gap.

  36. Ode wrote:

    in the 1st sentence you declared yourself a wise man… but then who wrote the rest of your posts? ;)

    Subsidizing bad art creates more bad art. To see the pathetic result of forcing or guilt tripping people into making/buying substandard product look at the Soviet era’s Russia, Mugabe’s Zimbabwe, communist China and airplane food. Or ethanol-infused gas. Buying bad stuff, due to lack of choice, governmental mandate, religious persuasion or just plain old scamming stifles improvement, creates a dissatisfied customer and bad economic climate in affected areas.

    Also, contrary to the rosy picture that your imagination draws you, if people listen to your advice and start “supporting the artists better” it won’t provide the struggling groups will extra budget for travel, health insurance, quality equipment or steady personnel. Instead, more lame groups playing the same karaoke dreck will flood the market, maintaining the status quo. That’s the basics of economics, John, you should know that if you brag about being a wise man.

  37. Ode wrote:

    11, it won’t be fun at all, Wadey, rather pretty sad. And it looks like they need no help, they r digging their own grave themselves ;)

    30, BP, haven’t seen u in a long time. Doing well? Send my regards to our good ol’ Mayor of Mayberry :).

  38. Wade wrote:

    Beware of Groups Evangelizing about ANYTHING!!!… The ones that do OFTEN have THAT ISSUE Riding on their own bus or waiting in a Hotel Room!!

    Come Ode when ya see something juicy post it here so we can help them DIG!!!

  39. Luke wrote:

    35 - Haha, yeah. They’re just the only ones I’ve seen speaking publicly. That’s why I used them as an example. ;)

  40. Fundie wrote:

    PREACH IT Luke! And Wade, in this case, you’re wrong.

  41. bobaran wrote:

    I went to two concerts recently. One was a Gaither concert. About 9,000 in attendance. I went to a Steven Curtis Chapman, Chris Tomlin…maybe 5,000 - both in the same auditorium.

    Look at the Rolling Stone Mag for top 100 concert ticket sales every year. Gaither is the only gospel artist on the list. No contemporary artist on the list.

  42. Wade wrote:

    What am I wrong about Fundie!?!?!?

  43. quartet-man wrote:

    #30 BWP - These days you could just go to concerts in your Pjs. Well actually, it hasn’t probably made its way to gospel concerts yet, but it does happen elsewhere. :)

    #31 AC- That’s really keeping the faith.

  44. Fundie wrote:

    Wade, about that group playing the double standard. They don’t. Too many groups do though, I’ll grant you that.

    Bobaran, very interesting stats. Thanks.

  45. KC wrote:

    Mr. Situmbeko - thank you for taking it upon yourself to insinuate I’m foolish. You’re correct. I can be, from time to time! I’m also not a southern gospel promoter. And I was simply sharing opinions. They could very well be wrong.

    Regardless, I still despise mediocre tracks at concerts.

    And to excuse southern gospel from furthering itself because the Lord is coming back, seems a tad silly to me. He’s been returning soon, for how long? He could take another 2,000 years. Why not make some good live music in the meantime. I guess you shouldn’t further your education or advance in your career, because the Lord is coming back, too?

    I’m just thankful for the nuggets of goodness we still have in southern gospel. Stamps-Baxter School of Music is a beautiful thing. Tracey Phillips on piano is amazing. Gaither productions are genius at times (at least he can afford to create great sounding tracks and augment them with live instruments in concerts). Jason Crabb’s live band (good on him for winning a Grammy). The Isaacs (live music and gorgeous harmonies). Mrs. Collingsworth at the piano. To name a few.

    And really? You’re going to argue the Palin thing. Puleeeeeeez. I wonder what all those NQC ladies did with their pink t-shirts with Palin Power written on them. The point was, mixing politics with religion is stupid. I don’t listen to preachers who do it, either - it’s not just a southern gospel artist beef with me. We all know that political references and patriotic songs at southern gospel concerts are a cheap way to get applause and standing ovations - because they are pouring out the koolaid while the audience slurps it up - stare at the light, people! But in the end, it serves no purpose. Just like the t-shirts Tony Greene (RIP) was selling at NQC that year that said “Obama is not my president” - what? Why is that necessary. Really. Or the time I saw The Martins and the blonde one (I forget her name) went on and on about how FINALLY there is a man of God in the White House (W Bush) - yet it’s okay that the blood of thousands were shed under his watch, for what? That was so godly. I don’t get it. Anyway - opinions. You have yours. I have mine. I’m sure we should probably just agree to disagree, and say have a blessed day. :)

    Regarding our voices causing “hurt and no change whatsoever” - ummm, participating on this blog opens up the door to “criticism and commentary” on southern gospel music - read the tagline at the top of the website. Criticism rarely feels good. But it helps us grow. I think southern gospel artists can handle it. I’m sure they have thick skin just for being able to walk on stage in front of an audience. We’re big people here. It’ll be okay.

  46. Wade wrote:

    Fundie that is what I mean… MOST do… even That group has played some double standards I promise!!! But i still love to hear them sing!!! I am not a fundie and hold some ones person weaknesses and demons against them!!!

  47. Fundie wrote:

    Not current members, Wade. We agree on a former member.

  48. Wade wrote:

    Well OK Fundie… we can agree on that!!! TGIF…have a fun weekend!!!

  49. John Situmbeko wrote:

    Oh KC you dear thing you! Please accept my thousand three-score and two apologies for unknowingly insinuating that you are foolish, the wise saying in my comment #27 (a saying which I personally think MUST be included in the 5th edition of The Book of Wise Sayings, hope you’re reading this editors), was intended to let people know that I’m wise. I’m sure you are wise too KC. It seems you did not understand what I wrote, which is quite understandable as I possess no superior knowledge in English grammar, you see, English is not my mother tongue, as you can possibly tell not only by my last name (which you have typed with flawless accuracy, thumbs up), but also by my failure to organise my sentences in such a way that unintended insinuations are detected by an English speaking individual, you. I will try to communicate using different words, if I fail to make you get what I want you to get in these words, I will officially plead ignorance in English writing and bankruptcy in knowledge (I will withdraw my saying).

    Did I say southern gospel should be excused from furthering itself because Jesus is coming? That would seem a tad silly to me too, (and to think I’m the one apologising for making negative insinuations :-)) reporters are better at twisting words, lets leave that to them okay? Okay. Here is what I was trying to say when I referred to His coming:

    As we are fast approaching Jesus’ return, the world is getting worse, including the economy. The bad economy is said to be responsible for southern gospel groups not hiring musicians, as it gets worse don’t you think even the production of tracks will become difficult? If the economy is unfavourable for SG artists now, when wallets of SG fans are half fat, do we expect live musicians in the future, when the wallets will be meatless? Read and watch the news, do a research and tell me if the world economy is fast reaching utopia or it is going downhill.

    As we see tracks being used in southern gospel, should we the fans mock and scoff and demand live musicians while we search our half thin wallets for the lowest denomination notes and change we can find to put in as love offerings? Or should we boycott concerts because Palin spoke at NQC and then harshly criticise SG artists whose concerts we have boycotted, for using tracks. If its live instruments you want, you won’t get them by staying away from concerts or by passing harsh criticism. If southern gospel artists made huge sums of money, maybe you would then rightfully criticise them for not using their surplus wealth to hire musicians. But behold, you have shunned the concert.

    As if the artists have sworn never to include live instruments and chosen to stash their cash in banks. You cry for southern gospel to further itself, by what means? The means you have provided, or the means you withhold as you await sg to further itself?

    How long will it take you to get over the Palin issue? I’m guessing forever. The woman has gone moose hunting in Alaska and you remain crying over her political agenda which she brought into freedom hall. You almost got over it but then you remembered Joyce (the blonde woman of the Martins) and her remark and that just did it, no more SG, to much politics. Guess what, you are the one missing out.

    Try going out to a southern gospel concert, listening and watching the performances, socialising with fellow concert goers and with the artists, shaking their hands, talking to them about how you dislike tracks, laughing with them about it (maybe). Maybe after all this (which you cannot experience at a Adele concert), you will have erased your abhorrence for track use, maybe you will criticise less and appreciate more.

    I really do love American southern gospel, which some of you non proud Americans take for granted. Support your local team don’t let us non Americans support your team while you criticise it harshly.

  50. KC wrote:

    Brother Situmbeko - apology accepted! And thank you for complimenting my grammar. Very kind of you. And thank you, as well, for straightening out my opinions. On my way to a southern gospel concert, so no time to type right now!

  51. Ode wrote:

    41Boba, where did you get that info from, may I ask? Nothing supports your claim, and trust me,I work for a publicly traded company, I can tolerate embellishment of gross earnings ;)

    First of all, the Rolling Stone mag doesn’t even track the ticket sales, they use the yearly data from Pollstar, that track January to December, or Billboard (November to November). Charts reveal to us :

    2012 – no B Gaither even in the top 200, unlike CMMers : Cast Crowns,Skillet, WinterJam tour ,other GMA award winners like Allison Krauss& Union Station( those are ones I can recognize- I don’t know pop xtian musicians well)

    2011 – not Bill Gaither even in the top 200, unlike comtemporary acts Chris Tomlin, Michael W Smith, Amy grant, Hillsong United, Winter Jam, Newsboys, AK &US

    2010 – he is there, but 15 points behind CMMers : Casting Crowns, NewSong, Christian Music Tour Winter Jam

    2009 - no BG again. I can keep going…and nothing agsinst Gaither. I love the band and own CDs, will go to concert when its close enough, but lets stick to the truth here ;)


  52. Ron F wrote:

    Thank You Ode Ive been searching for that info, and you found it.

  53. Pastor Phil McKnobb wrote:

    KC, your posts fill me with sadness about the eternal destiny of your poor, misguided soul! A few thousand dying of war is not “ungodly”, even if it appears so to you: numerous wars and plagues were sent by God upon the enemies of His people. As poster Luke said, speaking against gay marriage (which is the most grievous sin of today, bar none) IS the most important message of the Gospel to sinful world.

    G W Bush was a true man of God, unlike that Kenyan Communist ugly monkey we have in Office now! I am not a racist, may I assure you, but when White House had a white man in it, we didn’t have all these problems. Most of the country agrees with me, he is the devil.

    Real Christians despise gays for a good reason, because we don’t want our families and our nation to suffer God’s wrath and retribution. That’s what Jesus would do, because he hated the evildoers! God orders their execution in Levit.20:13 “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death” . NOT some “opinion” of mine, but the clear commandment of God, who is the author of morality, who are we to object? We had a great privilege to have Brian Free sing at our church last year. He and other Bible Believing Christian artists are on the side of God, as I just proved!! AMEN.

    Our government doesn’t understand Satan’s tactic! Right now marriage is sanctified and honored, legalizing gay “marriage” will turn it into a joke. Straight couples will see no need in getting married, divorce rates will skyrocket. Kids will be taught how to lubricate homosexual acts, young’uns will be confused and tempted to marry someone their own gender. Look at the lieberal feminist women of today, they don’t believe in obeying and submitting to their husbands. What young man would want to marry one? They will enjoy golfing rounds, laughter, and Gators’ games with their buddies instead of being married to one of those loud, jealous harpies and little smart mouth harlots like you see on this very site.

    Evil is fully loaded; KC. Christian kids in schools are now forced to be friends with gay kids instead of telling them about their sin! We need to take America back to a Christian Nation, “In God We Trust “!

    Women shouldn’t have to be jealous of other men when their husbands are working late at the office! Good Lord! Homosexuality is endangering our culture as we know it! We won’t give up the good fight. What it will do to our godly gospel singers? They will be afraid to get on a bus with a group of other men, after gaysex and gay marriage will be sanctioned by government.

    Some say, Pastor Phil, you taking it too far, I say look at danger and persecution we Christians are facing from that half-breed and atheist “President”! God gave America to Christians, not the Muslims!

    Repent, KC and save your soul! Or how we’ll laugh at you as you scream in agony in Hell as an enabler of homosexual sin!! Romans 1:32 “Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them!”

    Brother Brian Free is right! WE LOVE JESUS.Shouting Glory, AMEN!

    Phil and Frances McKnobb

  54. Wade wrote:

    53 … Ha Ha I love it when some one says they are not racist but then they drop some ignorant shit like this…

    “G W Bush was a true man of God, unlike that Kenyan Communist ugly monkey we have in Office now! I am not a racist, may I assure you, but when White House had a white man in it, we didn’t have all these problems. Most of the country agrees with me, he is the devil.”…

    … and I am not obozos biggest fan either and GW screwed the pooch probably worse than obozo… BUT REALLY you are not racist huh Pastor Phil????… I am sure your wife is THRILLED you tagged her name in that mess above!!!

  55. Wade wrote:

    Oh I MISSED pastor phil dropping “HALF BREED” on down in THE MESS!!! Good Lord… ha ha ha what an idiot!!! Bet if you look deep or not that we would find out pastor phil is half breed too!!!

    God Bless ya Dr. DH for some of the MESS you allow through.

  56. irishlad wrote:

    McKnobb…?? Is this a wind up?
    If not you certainly live up to your name, if you’re not sure what i mean Google UK slang for knob head…cause you’re a prize one.

  57. Hector Luna wrote:

    53: Real Christians DESPISE gays? As far as evildoers, being a pastor, I would’ve thought you knew for sure Jesus meant Pharisees, like yourself.
    While there will be some considerable effects for the Church in the event gay marriage is legalized, I’ve yet to see a situation where “hate the sin, love the sinner” is applied correctly & biblically… maybe because we made that up since I can’t find that verbatim in the Bible. Maybe we should not personalize it so much by taking out the definite article “the”, at the risk of attacking not the argument, but the person.

    Most of the country agrees with you? Not a chance. Where did you get those statistics. If most of the “Country” agreed with you, your monkey friend would not be in office. And while I disagree with MUCH of Obama’s views, he is your president. And it doesn’t seem you handled your disagreement with him in the biblical manner. He’s probably not saved… so why expect him to hold Christian theology and act as if he was?

    And.. God didn’t give America to Christians. He gave it to people, some believers, some non-believers. Christian “values” are different than Christianity itself. I’m not a cow, but there are benefits to eating a bite of steak.

    And one last question: do you really think we’ll laugh at people in hell? If so, that would explain the state of your soul. What you believe about “life after death” directly pertains to what you are doing for the Kingdom today. Which seems to be very little, except booking Brian Free & Assurance. I’m sure their appearance didn’t cause the 3rd Great Awakening.

  58. Pastor Phil McKnobb wrote:

    Lol, all those damning words from an openly rabid God mocker and fornicator like Wade is something I expected! Thats a job hazard of every true pastor of God! What does the light have to do with darkness? I am happy to suffer for JESUS!

    If I am called a racist for criticizing that Marxist atheist monkey,then I am proud to be called one! He makes me sick. Thank you, Wade, I have been married for 43 years and always loved my Fanny just as much as I love godly Christian Gospel Music!!

    It should be obvious to any male or female who isn’t queer that the state endorsed sodomy is disgusting and wrong. You should really try to get saved SOON so you won’t have to get sodomized by Satan while you are on fire forever. Gay means no morals. No morals lead to child molestation, bestiality, rape, masturbation, and becoming a godless registered Democrat. Do you want bestiality advocates in the streets, parading around with their animals, fighting for the right to get married to their horses and dogs?

    Making fun of a person’s last name, “Irishlad”, are you in fifth grade? Are you trying to suggest that God doesn’t think homosexuals are an abomination ?

  59. Hector Luna wrote:

    Pastor Phil,

    I’m sure your wife is thrilled to be loved by you at the same level as good, gospel music.

  60. Ode wrote:

    Yuck, disgusting! Ok, the Pastor is certifiable, but you guys? Hector? Brian Free acts like a coward and a bully. We went thru this before. He picks on those who are in a small minority, as all cowards do, and considering the current church climate in the Bible belt, are still deep in the closet.

    If he is so concerned about standing for Biblical standard of marriage, why not be for the one Jesus, who said nothing about gays, but plenty about adultery, advocated?

    BF knows well he can’t speak against adulterers - half of his typical audience are or have kids that are adulterers by NT definition. So he would step on many toes, upset people and it will hurt him financially.

    His anal obsession (begs for toilet paper, gay marriage rhetoric, etc.)and heavy-handed moralizing is unsettling. Typical hateful religious opportunist that doesn’t understand what Christianity is about but wants to feel self righteous.

  61. irishlad wrote:

    58 You say you’re against Sodomy yet you love your “fanny”…Really?
    That’s just some more 5th grade puerile nonsense for you.I’m sure the average 5th grader has more wit about them than you have.Go sit in the corner with the big pointy hat on silly boy!

  62. KC wrote:

    Pastor McKnobb. Wowzer. Sounds to me like the only thing you’re looking forward to is the “how we’ll laugh at you as you scream in agony in Hell.” Some Christians sound so scary. I’m not interested in what you’re pouring out. But thank you for your concern about my soul; I guess?

    “Kenyan Communist ugly monkey” - are you really a pastor and think that is okay to say? Yikes.

    I believe the topic here has been the decline in southern gospel music popularity. Your posting, my friend, is more on topic than I thought, though - why would masses of people come out to concerts of people like-minded to you. I now rest my case.

    And I’ll state again my two main points - LIVE BANDS over soundtracks, and keep the politics to the politicians - and southern gospel concerts could live happily ever after.

    But, since you brought up the gay marriage topic, here’s a little video for you to enjoy:


    Don’t you worry, though. It sounds like you won’t be getting any invitations to any gay weddings.

    Hillary Clinton 2016. LOL :)

  63. Ode wrote:

    “”"with the big pointy hat on”"”"

    heeee……Yeap,I bet the reverend is truly a wizard under the sheets. Just evidently not in a good sense.

  64. irishlad wrote:

    Here’s a transient thought for y’all:could it be true all the personalities have either died or otherwise departed Sg?.The Jds Georges Jakes Hamills ecetera? No doubting there are some great singers out there but the big gregarious ott in your face funny at times serious types where are they now?Ok you’ve Mark Lowery but that’s about it..oh yes and David Phelps,fantastic vocalist with the personality of a polecat.

  65. Pastor Phil McKnobb wrote:

    To answer your question,KC:
    “Masses of people come out to concerts of people like-minded to me” because “groups like Brian Free and Assurance uncompromisingly stand up for the Word of God by speaking up against homosexuality. It’s not a denominational issue, it’s a Christian issue and a God issue” as some posters here have told you. Shout to the power of the CROSS!
    Homosexuality is a choice, a sin and it destroys the traditional biblical families.

    Amen to brothers Luke and Fundie. True believers are on the forefront of defeating the Gay Agenda. Many family-friendly, Christian, Conservative Republicans like The Perrys have shown support of godly Chick-fil-A campaign and God-fearing lawmakers working tirelessly to prevent gays from obtaining their imaginary “rights”.

    Only a real wife can stay with her sick husband at the hospital! Shout Glory!!!!! Go God, Go! A reprobate gay, unless he repents, will die alone and abandoned, not holding his “husband’s” hand, but thinking about his sinful deathstyle. The Holy Bible condemns sodomites and calls them not worthy to even be around us, unless they submit to God’s will and start living as straight! That’s why godly Mark Trammell’s Quartet, Greater Vision, Aaron Crabb, Wilburn and Wilburn and many others want to stop perverted heathens from ruining our Christian freedoms. We love the sinner, even if he is gay! But hate his sin; they have to stop it, no other way. “Jesus Will”, amen!

    We are on the RIGHT side of history and are not afraid to fight. If that offends you, then you’re offended by Almighty God and His Word, not by us.

    I will pray for you.

  66. Pastor Phil McKnobb wrote:

    # 60 Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to post this hateful message! How silly you pro-sodomites are. If God offends you, YOU are the one with the problem, not us or the Bible.

    Nothing is wrong with making sure that a traveling ministry has enough essentials like toilet paper for their road trips. Isaiah 1: 16 talks about the importance of bodily cleanness. Our body is the Holy Temple of God. To Him be the Glory!

    You cannot have a clean soul and mind and not take care of your personal hygiene. I don’t feel comfortable stating the obvious, but lacking toilet paper and economizing might cause one to accidentally rip thru it and touch himself. Even if done by pure accident, touching one’s backside is offensive to God by it’s resemblance to acts of homosexual nature. As a pastor I am not shying away from difficult issues, but I wish to drop this uncomfortable subject.

  67. irishlad wrote:

    66 So if you bought the most expensive toilet paper in the store accidently poked your finger through it you somehow offended God? What sort of twisted and disturbed mind have you got?
    Are you sure you weren’t the victim of child abuse?

  68. Wade wrote:

    Is this guy pastor phil for real… Pastor Phil do you have a web site for your fantastic ministry???

    I just don’t think anybody can be this bigga idiot!!

    pastor phil please answer Odes question about why groups do not preach against adultery and drinkin’???

  69. KC wrote:

    Before we drop this “uncomfortable subject” maybe you could offer some advice, Pastor McKnobb. Since you stated “touching one’s backside is offensive to God by it’s resemblance to acts of homosexual nature” - I’ve been looking for a bidet. Do you have any recommendations? Hey! There could be a huge business opportunity for you - have all gay-hatin’ churches install them in their restrooms! McKnobb Bidets! Market that crap and make some money - then you can donate more to your favorite southern gospel groups, while assuring your congregants don’t catch “the gay” in houses of worship. O my, genius! It’s a win-win for you.

    Thanks for your prayers. I’m good with God’s grace and mercy, but if you want to spend your time praying for me, that’s cool. :)

  70. Aaron Swain wrote:

    This “Pastor” McKnobb has GOT to be a troll account. A lot less funny, way more annoying version of Old Harry Peters from a few years back.

    Speaking of which, where is he these days? At least he was good for a laugh now and then.

  71. irishlad wrote:

    69 Yes,as Thomas Crapper invented the toilet bowl ,Phil McKnobb could patent the McBidet,get it installed in every McDonalds under a joint ownership and in the event of a McBidet breakdown have some fingerproof McKnobb toilet paper on hand.

  72. Ode wrote:

    Yes, there are idiots like that. “Pastor” was just a string of direct quotes from various SG artists and their cheering fans that I saved for personal amusement and culture study when first run across “ugly monkey” that “makes me sick “and the joke about killing the Black First Family* while looking up a bass singer that was mentioned here. Yet he claimed “he was not a racist” ;)

    All the “pastor’s” pearls of wisdom came from the PUBLIC F-book pages or web sites of SG artists, about 5 or 6, then I got bored, and stopped saving the screenshots, I got the general idea ;) Never planned to air it anywhere. But Wadey asked for details, so I figured cartoon Phil McCrotch (to honor our resident Brits used their slang ‘knob’instead ) would be a way to do it without mentioning actual names.

    If someone wants the source of a particular quote, ask and it shall be given to you, I will send it out privately, to honor Avery’s wishes to stop it here. Racism, misogyny, insults and “who would Jesus hate” attitude is sad, but to be honest, that’s what many SG artists believe in, and it sells to their market.

    As I warned you Wadey, it wouldn’t be funny at all- BECAUSE THESE ARE REAL SG ARTISTS’ QUOTES. It’s rather sad. And thanks for comments. Now I know that SG often goes uncriticized not due to the lack of decency among readers.

    * The joke made news even back when re-twitting it almost costed a judge and a teacher their jobs, so God bless the singing gospel business! Those artists would be kicked out from a corporate world on the first day by lunch, with lawyers in pursuit. Again, I DO love great music and harmonies. Wont change a thing for me, I still love quartet singing. But will still be mocking that garbage….. :D

  73. Ode wrote:

    PS Sorry for boring you to death with Pastor. Again, all posts are strictly based on SG artists’ crap, except the last one about “I ripped thru TP and touched myself down there- am I gay??!”- That’s just me goofing around.

    But Brian Free should shut up on this topic before people start gossiping that he is a self hating closet case.

    Name “Fanny” is from a punch line of an old joke about 4 SBaptist pastors each loving food, money and drink some much they married ladies named Candy, Penny, Brandy respectively. Joke is dumb. I never saw a Baptist pastor who isn’t a lover and a chaser of food, money, alcohol or ass.

  74. KC wrote:

    Since we is way off topic with all this butt-wiping-is-now-an-abomination talk, is it okay to bring up other topics? LOL

    I would love if there is a Republican Christian out there who could explain intelligently (keyword) why the Republicans won’t get behind this man as their hero? It would make for some awesome election debates - imagine how it would have been with Obamarama getting competition from an opponent like this Republican.

    Maybe 2016 should be Clinton/Paul.


  75. irishlad wrote:

    70 Since he got that cut price waxing job done he’s been in too much pain to to talk. :)

  76. irishlad wrote:

    72 Hey Ode,used to go to school with a guy called Phil McCracken…true. ;)

  77. Wade wrote:

    Thanks Ode… Good Job!!! You can touch yourself any time!!!

  78. Wade wrote:

    Harry Peters has went on to be with The Lord!!! He passed about 18 mos ago if I remember right!!! His name was William Wooden and a long time friend of mine!! In fact I introduced him to his widow!!!

    He was from Cleveland, Tn and close with world famous SGM piano extraordinaire Jack Clark!!

    He was an attorney living in Myrtle Beach when he died.

    Was a VERY talented WORDSMITH. In fact when I became divorced the first time I started getting these messages that I had a Match.com page.

    At the time I was an internet novice and thought I had not set up an account. When I finally found the page and got logged on I read it and thought DAMN I musta got drunk one night and did this because it was SOOOO ME!!!

    He was such the word smith he could assume peoples mind set and write as them. THAT’S Talent!!

  79. Aaron Swain wrote:

    #78: Sorry to hear that he passed! If there was mention of it on here, I must have missed it. In all seriousness, I did miss his input in the discussions here.

  80. irishlad wrote:

    His man v bus comment was hilarious . Only a ruthless mind could’ve come up with that.RIP ole HP.

  81. Wade wrote:

    Don’t think it was… Glad you enjoyed it Aaron!! He was a Great Guy… besides being an attorney and Real Estate Broker he was Music Minister at SEVERAL Churches in the Myrtle Beach Area!!

    Irishdude I knew you like Harry Peters!! :-) But so does Ode!!!

  82. John_N_TN wrote:

    This is along the lines of a thought and conversations I’ve had in the past year with several songwriters and other SG industry folks. I’ve posed the question of “when did SG music leave the church?”.

    What I mean by that is while I was growing up in the church in the 70’s I never listened to SG music, didn’t even know what it was actually. But I knew the songs like “He Touched Me”, “Wouldn’t Take Nothing For My Journey Now”, “Because He Lives” etc because they were a part of the church.

    I’m wondering as SG music became focused on concert venues (non-church venues), “radio friendly” production, industry growth, etc if they somehow SG music “left” the church.

    My intrigue is still heightened after recently meeting and talking with the writer of “Jerusalem” by the Hoppers, Paula Stefanovich. She wasn’t that familiar with SG music when this song was picked up. She works almost exclusively in the “church” and I heard some of the other songs she’s written… they fit SG music lyrically (and even musically)…but they fit and work for her the church first. In other words she’s not writing WOW Worship tunes.

    Just wondering if the church grew past SG music toward more contemporary music or if SG music decided to grow past the church. Or if it’s just how things go over time.

    Just my thought for the day… or the rest of the year. LOL

  83. John_N_TN wrote:

    And for the record, I think pop culture has been in a transition anyway. Every music genre has challenges with concert attendance and record sales. They’re teaming many top Country acts in order to fill arenas because it’s getting tougher to fill an arena with just one act.

    Plus, just look at the top album sales each year … until Adele broke 5 million in sales in 2011 … it was 2004 before any one album/artist had over 5 million in sales. Prior to 2005 … top album honors were in the 6,7 and 9 million range. Now 2-4 million in sales will get you top honors.

    I think the entertainment pie has a lot more slices to it, cable TV, satellite, on-deman, DVDs, internet, gaming, etc, etc… buying or downloading music or going to a concert these days has a LOT of competition.

  84. KC wrote:

    Who will the Christians vote for if the Republicans walk down the gay marriage aisle? :)


    Maybe Sarah Palin is pondering this while eating some Chick-fil-A.

  85. KC wrote:

    John_N_TN - I can only speak from my experience, having been involved in church music for over two decades now - it seems to me like most churches left southern gospel and moved along to the contemporary Christian (Praise, WOW, whatever you want to call it). I’ve had to learn a ton more music over the years that is way different than the southern gospel I grew up on. I don’t think that southern gospel ever wanted to leave the church. Big churches just outgrew it maybe - three chords and a cloud of dust can only last so long, I suppose. :)

  86. Ode wrote:

    KC :D ,you fellas are a hoot So, ‘McKnobb’s Extra Godly rump-touchless toilet/bidet set’, between the NQC’s MagicMop and Miracle Arthritis Cream vendors? Leviticus’ quotes and “A smooth ride all the way to Glory!” ,”A Straight Shooter!” inspo msges adorning the booth’s walls. 2 free Ultimate SG Classics CD as a bonus gift to the first 20… That will Cracken up wallets!


    Thank you, sonny, but I cant take credit for this sewage. I did convinced my friend Ash from NC, she speaks Babtiss religioun-ese to come in as a rolling pin wielding FannyMcKnobb, but oh well :) next time. I passed on posting really nasty stuff like Sodobama,chinks, spicks and the dirty ways SG groups evidently fight competition.

    Truly laughable to me were serious concerns about artists’ safety in the light of potential legalaizing of gay marriage. I guess a bass singer would just rise off his bunk one night and say “well, Gus, Scottie, I didn’t see that coming, but you guys are hot!” Unmarried tenors will seriously consider men as potential spouses due to the shortage of godly submissive women ?!

    And appreciate your permission,my little rascal. Thanks to BFA for making Toilet Paper an acceptable topic ;) No, I use scented moist wipes instead, they are not easily rippable.

  87. Ode wrote:

    Ha.An attorney, a great guy, and a minister? Wisecrack question if they put 3 people in one grave pops into mind.No, dear, if I was attracted to lawyers I’d have stayed in my birthright religion. I only knew one lawyer personally - he was a slick wizard of immigration law, knew how to screw the system, was thrice married and much into extreme sports,but his end was far worse then HarryPeters’- sadly he is still alive.I never read ol HP, lemme google his posts if you guys recommend him.

  88. Ode wrote:


    Aaron,so even the select stuff from GreaterVision,L5,EH,The Perrys and Talleys, etc, is less funny and way more annoying then a lawyer from Myrtle beach ?! That explains poor NQC attendance! Lets google the numbs of 2012 –ok, max 8 thousand at most shows, with the all time lows of 3k, courtesy of our respected DMB blog. thats just sad. 8K is what my not-even-close-to-real-mega church does on a slow Sunday.

  89. irishlad wrote:

    I coudn’t give two flying f**ks ..but i guess u know that anyway.
    You all have a nice day. :-)

  90. Christians wrote:

    to #84 -
    Don’t worry. About half of us had no problem voting against Repubes in the last 4 elections :


  91. KC wrote:

    #90 - That is very interesting data, considering my Pentecostal “upbringing.” According to that site’s data, 79% of “born-again/evangelical” identifying folks supported a Mormon. I think they were most likely just voting against the “Kenyan Communist ugly monkey” that “Pastor” McKnobb so eloquently stated above. :)

  92. Fundie wrote:

    Ode, my views on immorality come from DIRECT QUOTES of the word of God (since you’ve been throwing around the direct quotes schtick so much). Shoot the mouth, shoot the messenger, but the Word of God will never return void.

  93. Ode wrote:

    And BF&A happily ignores all those direct quotes from the Word of God! As others mentioned before, he sells whatever version of “gospel” his audience wants at the moment, being perfectly OK with immorality that they’ve already accepted, he dares not to offend, shuts or shoots his mouth depending on potential profitability.

    Having no fear of God or principles helps Brian Free to fleece silver heads right now, and don’t worry, when the audience changes - he will sing a new “gospel”. Crooks like him adjust quick.

    but it’s music, not faith that is expected of him, and he delivers, so strictly speaking, it’s a non-issue.

  94. Fundie wrote:

    Ode, you do realize that most of what you just said could be classified as defamation? Not sure why Avery allows that on his website. If he were half the “crook” you claim him to be, he would sue you.

    Immorality? Show me one member with him who engages in immorality. Show me one member with him who is not married to their first wife. Show me ONE place where he encourages, condones, or endorses adultery, fornication, or any other sin. Just because he doesn’t lean over the pulpit every night and judge every person in attendance who has failures in their lives does not mean he endorses their choices.

    If he were in a get rich scheme he would be in Vegas or LA singing secular music and making fifty times what he is now. You are disgusting.

  95. Fundie wrote:

    You also realizes that he does not sell tickets for his concerts? He said he does not believe in charging people to go to church. Get a freaking life…with all due respect.

  96. Ode wrote:

    :) let’s try once more:

    Luke‘s belief that “speaking up about homosexuality is spreading the Gospel”and your cheering of it were laughable, parody site-worthy posts, as I hinted with “Pastor Phil”.

    Now really pay attention, please - If a singer tries to preach biblical morality while ignoring the clear Truth of the Word , instead judging and bashing those not in the audience for something Jesus never condemned or even mentioned, just to get donations, he is a religious crook and a coward.

    BackwoodsPhil. recently shared that impression of such behavior she witnessed attending BFA show, and others supported it.

    Calling Brian Free a religious crook – one that manipulates people for money misusing Scripture - is not an “offense” that merits litigation, lol, Fundie. What he and, to a larger degree, other religious charlatans like prosperity preachers are doing is disgusting, immoral and unchristian, but is perfectly legal. Truthfully calling him on it is legal,too.

    One of the reasons why younger folk are staying away from this music genre is the lack of people calling those shysters out.

  97. Ode wrote:

    yeah, there were SG bands that played Las Vegas shows, nightclubs and toured with secular artists, based on the historical accounts I’ve read, like The Jordanaires,just mentioned by Doug, provided vocals for Elvis’s 1956 hit “Hound Dog”.

    So if BFA wants to play Vegas, and I saw the today’s quality of Vegas shows firsthand, he would have to adjust a few areas of his showmanship that are too substandard, in order to make it there. Watching out what dirt leaves his mouth and getting rid of the karaoke machine could be Step 1. ;)

  98. irishlad wrote:

    Wow! i was away and just caught up with the Ode v Fundie boxing match the best since the Rumble in the Jungle.
    Has Ode finally KO’d the preaching pugalist in the 8th round?…keep tuned for more fisticuffed fun.

  99. Wade wrote:

    OMG… FINALLY Somebody else that will call out the BS!! Thank Ode!!!

    lololol … let’s see what they got to SAY about THAT?!?!?!?

  100. Ode wrote:

    :) ok, i take my heel off his neck ,as Avery’s latest blog post opened my eyes to deadend-ness of the fight… Lets agree to disagree, Fundster , I am stretching my hand in peace to you.. all due respect.

  101. Ode wrote:

    to switch the subj.
    :) KC #91, yeah, this is what I meant in 90. To add: As Obama disliking socially liberal repub, I, a stickler for details, want to be fair, so may I point out the variations. For birthers just ‘lyin’ African’ would suffice, those getting their political worldview from forwarded emails add ‘communist’, for clinically determined to kill all religious diversity born-again idiots its ‘muslim’, those hell bent on killing women with coat hangers add ‘baby killer’, on gay agenda - ’sodomite friendly’. But the ‘ugly monkey’ sounds like a Dixie term to me, it surely wouldn’t fly around here.

    So it’s appears to be anything from “Kenyan” to a whole line of epithets strung together.

    Not to burden you with more politics, KC, but it reminded me of recent stunts back at home. The failed teaparty marriage of GOP & religion can give you a taste of what perpetual circus our politics,that are forever fused with religion,are… One of our parties comes with an idea to make Sunday a holiday, like in US or Europe. Unifying hatred the idea evoked is hilarious and comparable to our Enemies United Against Obama thing.

    The party in question is lovingly called ‘economy destroyers’ by most liberal camps, then it slowly gathers speed and adjectives, ending with the gentle spirited ultra-conservative God’s people colofully calling it “devilishly secularist filthy Iran-fellating idolaters and bestiality loving nuclear Armageddon pushing, pissing against the wall filthy offspring of a whore“

    (we openly use Scripturel quotes in politics,so sorry for the graphic nature)

  102. Fundie wrote:

    Ode, peace to you as well.

    I actually see your point that it is a double standard to emphasize homosexuality and ignore the rampant adultery in the church. I just think you are judging his motives, and that is only something God can do. From what I have seen attending many of his concerts, your description is grossly inaccurate. But that is obviously just my observation.

    Now, let me call you out on your insinuation that we should ignore homosexuality because “Jesus never mentioned it.” Unless you throw out the rest of the Bible, let me draw your attention to the following passages:

    Genesis 19:1-11
    That evening the two angels came to the entrance of the city of Sodom. Lot was sitting there, and when he saw them, he stood up to meet them. Then he welcomed them and bowed with his face to the ground. “My lords,” he said, “come to my home to wash your feet, and be my guests for the night. You may then get up early in the morning and be on your way again.” “Oh no,” they replied. “We’ll just spend the night out here in the city square.” But Lot insisted, so at last they went home with him. Lot prepared a feast for them, complete with fresh bread made without yeast, and they ate. But before they retired for the night, all the men of Sodom, young and old, came from all over the city and surrounded the house. They shouted to Lot, “Where are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!”

    So Lot stepped outside to talk to them, shutting the door behind him. “Please, my brothers,” he begged, “don’t do such a wicked thing. Look, I have two virgin daughters. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do with them as you wish. But please, leave these men alone, for they are my guests and are under my protection.”

    “Stand back!” they shouted. “This fellow came to town as an outsider, and now he’s acting like our judge! We’ll treat you far worse than those other men!” And they lunged toward Lot to break down the door. But the two angels reached out, pulled Lot into the house, and bolted the door. Then they blinded all the men, young and old, who were at the door of the house, so they gave up trying to get inside. (NLT)

    Leviticus 18:22
    “Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.” (NLT)

    Leviticus 20:13
    “If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.” (NLT)

    Judges 19:16-24
    That evening an old man came home from his work in the fields. He was from the hill country of Ephraim, but he was living in Gibeah, where the people were from the tribe of Benjamin. When he saw the travelers sitting in the town square, he asked them where they were from and where they were going.

    “We have been in Bethlehem in Judah,” the man replied. “We are on our way to a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim, which is my home. I traveled to Bethlehem, and now I’m returning home. But no one has taken us in for the night, even though we have everything we need. We have straw and feed for our donkeys and plenty of bread and wine for ourselves.”

    “You are welcome to stay with me,” the old man said. “I will give you anything you might need. But whatever you do, don’t spend the night in the square.” So he took them home with him and fed the donkeys. After they washed their feet, they ate and drank together. While they were enjoying themselves, a crowd of troublemakers from the town surrounded the house. They began beating at the door and shouting to the old man, “Bring out the man who is staying with you so we can have sex with him.” The old man stepped outside to talk to them. “No, my brothers, don’t do such an evil thing. For this man is a guest in my house, and such a thing would be shameful. Here, take my virgin daughter and this man’s concubine. I will bring them out to you, and you can abuse them and do whatever you like. But don’t do such a shameful thing to this man.” (NLT)

    1 Kings 14:24
    And there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations that the LORD drove out before the people of Israel. (ESV)

    1 Kings 15:12
    He put away the male cult prostitutes out of the land and removed all the idols that his fathers had made. (ESV)

    2 Kings 23:7
    He also tore down the living quarters of the male and female shrine prostitutes that were inside the Temple of the LORD, where the women wove coverings for the Asherah pole. (NLT)

    Romans 1:18-32
    But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness…. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.

    So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

    That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.

    Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (NLT)

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11
    Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people-none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (NLT)

    1 Timothy 1:8-10
    Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine … (ESV)

    Jude 7
    And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment. (NIV)

    I believe this round is indeed finished.

  103. irishlad wrote:

    the preaching pugilist just got off the floor…. knock him out Ode will you ? that latest Bible driven rant was quite nauseating to say the least.Who the heck does this guy think he is? he never lived in those times but thinks he can bandy scripture about to suit himself?
    One good reason to stay out of Heaven if idiots like you are going to be there.Give me my buddy Wade any day.

  104. Fundie wrote:

    It’s a sad day when quoting Scripture makes you an “idiot,” and is a “nauseating rant” which makes you want to “stay out of Heaven.”

    Your words, pal, not mine.

  105. irishlad wrote:

    104.Let me make this clear: it’s not so much what you say that’s irking,it’s the way you say it.
    Gives the term “Bible bashing”a whole new meaning.
    What i said about Heaven i’ll stick with.The very thought of being holed up with you in some corner of Glory for the day whilst you went off on one is frankly most unappealling.

  106. Fundie wrote:

    You are most amusing, Irishlad. Re-reading my last post I still don’t understand how my post was offensive. Yes, I lost my cool in the posts before that mainly because Ode literally called an ordained preacher and man of God that I know quite well a “crook” and someone who was in a get rich scheme. The facts are that he does not charge tickets for concerts, travels the globe for love offerings, has given his life to this, stands on the word of God even at the behest of those around him. And somehow that makes him a fake moron. But then again, some people don’t like to be confused by the facts.

    If I get under your skin, I do apologize.

  107. Ode wrote:

    Ordained preachers cant be crooks if they preach hate as Gospel, mislead folks, and are lying hypocrites ?

    Donation based ‘ministry’ can’t be run by crooks ? Did you see the TBN people ?Most of such thrive on donations exclusively.I stand by my word and believe people who reported here. You have your own view. Wanna convince me-try,I will listen. But be honest.

  108. Wade wrote:


    You have some serious rose colored glasses!!! Still don’t think you have answered… WHY does that ORDAINED MAN OF GOD not stand up there and HAMMER DOWN on Drinking and Adultery!?!?

    The answer is obvious and Ode has already spelled it out!!! But it would be nice to hear it from you!!

  109. Ode wrote:

    strictly speaking, Bible quoting in a ‘nauseating rant’ form is often done even by much more sinister characters then good ol’ harmless idiots; those are actually on the light end of the spectrum. Look at my #101 to KC -those Scripture quoters are in Parliament, they swore to obey the Word of God(to use xtian terms) as their lives’ purpose.

    Many preachers thru history supported, by many Biblical quotes, a multitude of evil causes like genocide, slavery,racism and abuse. Yes, that kept many people away of Christianity.

    Your quote-heavy post is pretty lukewarm next to fiery Southern Baptists’ quote-heavy sermons on segregation, from the recent past….

    (Pulling the gloves on again) I offered us a respectful agreement to disagree, you chose to decline, so ok… I am busy now, but I will be back :) to address your post.

  110. Ode wrote:

    Good point, Wadey. Refusal to call the Ordained Men of God crooks or other true names is why Catholic Church is losing it’s pants in child molestation cases.

    Sorry for being ignorant, you know I am just learning all this pseudo Christian crap - they don’t preach against “drinking” anymore ? I though that was SB’s evergreen theme they couldnt shut up about..

  111. Fundie wrote:

    #109: I came back after you claimed victory because “Jesus never said it.” That was the inspiration for the barrage of quotes. ;) I will stop anytime. As long as people like Irish and Wade act like the Bible is returning void, I will keep coming back to defend it. Unless it becomes a violation of “Answer not a fool according to his folly.” But I don’t think we are there yet. I think you and I, Ode, are actually having a quality conversation now that we have both settled down a bit.

    Let us break this down one comment at a time:
    “Preach hate Gospel.” Please elaborate. I don’t believe in hating anyone, including gay people. That does not mean we have to endorse their lifestyle, does it? I value your input.

    “Mislead folks.” Still waiting on one example.

    “Lying hypocrites.” Still waiting on hearing about one current group member who does anything he preaches against, OR that the Word of God preaches against. Still waiting on one lie to be called out. The silence is deafening.

    I concede that donation based “ministry” can absolutely be crooked. So? That does not mean all donation based ministry is crooked.

    I have a question for Wade: Do you think he should talk about the dangers of alcohol? I don’t understand the fist pounding. You don’t drink, Wade?

  112. irishlad wrote:

    111 you’re playing a dangerous game attempting to patronise Ode. Well it’s your life son,best of Irish luck to you.

  113. Wade wrote:

    Fundie… I am drinking right now!!!! But if you are going to POUND about Homosexuals… every time I have saw homosexuality mentioned as being BAD there is usually a LONG LIST of other things that are legalistically wrong too!!!

    But as Ode has said many times but does not seem to get through your skull… THESE MEN of GAWD selectively pick out what effects the least amount of people, and the MOST RED MEAT so they can all gang up on The Gays!!! Come on you are not this DENSE!!!

  114. Wade wrote:

    Fundie … I do not see how his MOTIVES could be MORE Clear unless you have seriously Rose Colored Glasses on!!! I mean what else you want to see!?!?!?

  115. Fundie wrote:

    Wade, you make a fair point. I think there is a problem with the church as a whole not addressing sin. I don’t think it is wrong to preach against anything he does. In fact, I applaud him for having the courage to preach about ANYthing. The church as a whole has become spineless and lukewarm, ignoring big problems and not preaching against ANYthing. Yes, including drunkenness and adultery. Whew, I think we might be reaching a sliver of common ground here!

  116. Ode wrote:

    112, truth has been spoken,Ilad :) Only if you tie me up you can reasonably expect to boss me around and order me what to do. And that’s not a guarantee; on a bad day all it might do is get 2 of your silk neck ties ruined, no patronizing accomplished.

    Speaking of which, still in a bind at work, will reply at the first opp, Fun, promise

    I am standing by every word I‘ve said before, but want to clarify: my music consumption is based on the quality/ appeal of a product exclusively, not the artist’s personal qualities, morality, or religious affiliation. Being a talented crook is not a deterrent :)

  117. irishlad wrote:

    A quick google told me of the past 31 cases of evanglical preachers from present back to the 70’s who have had to stand down because of undisputed scandels 17 were because of homosexual activity. Intetestingly everyone to a man were publicly vociferous in their denouncement of the homosexulal lifestyle,no doubt quoting scripture to bolster their retoric.
    That is why Fundie, quoting of scripture can cause nausea.

  118. irishlad wrote:

    *rhetoric..oops a daisy.

  119. Fundie wrote:

    Irishlad, I appreciate your research. You make an interesting point. My only point is this: I feel like you are insinuating that because some preachers who quote Scripture are/have been hypocrites, ALL are. That is a logical fallacy.

  120. irishlad wrote:

    Fundie,you can’t see the wood for the trees. The logic is; Scripture is being abused as in it’s being used to cover up the intentions of a man’s heart.Anyone can Bible quote,how do we know their real mind? that’s what sickens me.

  121. irishlad wrote:

    Ps. a quick a Google is hardly research,but i appreciate your sarcasm.

  122. Fundie wrote:

    “By their fruits, ye shall know them.” And it is GOD’s job to judge the heart. Yes, that’s also Scripture.

  123. ode wrote:

    ( jumping in the ring)

    “”" you are judging his motives, and that is only something God can do”"”

    I’ve bugged God enough today already, let’s handle this one ourselves, it would be impossible to screw this up and misjudge. When you see a ski masked civilian with an AK-17 storming into the lobby of MB Financial, we don’t need God to give us an interpretive sign of what he is obviously up to.

    Wade nailed it short’n’sweet, but as a woman,I’ll give a longer version :D

    The only possible reasons/motives for BFA (and the like) actions are:

    1.Religious charlatanism- he jumps on hot political issue dressing it in religiousspeak to give cheap thrills, “pious” feelings to his audience/self and get donations

    2.Such actions are too typical of so many religious closeted homosexuals. I think this is NOT the case here, unless my gaydar is that faulty.

    3.Honest in his anger, yet deeply confused and ignorant of the Scripture, unwillingly imposing great damage to the Gospel message, and is absolutely unworthy to be in any kind of preaching business.I don’t think that’s the case either, for his “gospel”, as others said, is audience-dependent. He shuts up nicely when he knows people wont like it ;)

    So I actually give him the best possible of the 3.

    Again ,all this is related to personality, not quality of music. There are many disgusting people that are talented musicians. Conservative Chrisitans’ darling Ted Nugent asked the Secretary Of State to “suck his machine gun”, waving the said gun on stage, threatened to kill the President-which nobody considers to be good stage behavior, yet, as co-touring Kevin Cronin from Reo and Speedwagon (saw them after a hockey game last month) confessed “I approve NOTHING that comes from Nugent’s mouth, yet LOVE him as an artist”

  124. ode wrote:

    “”"”I think you and I, Ode, are actually having a quality conversation”"”"”

    Don’t pusht it.Best we can achieve is hear each other out. We will never agree.To improve our chances - try giving YOUR VERSION, instead of just bashing mine and others’, ok?

    “”"”"”Still waiting on hearing about one current group member who does anything he preaches against “”"”"”

    I don’t know what they do in private, so I can’t tell you. Yet I answered your question already before. Preachers are hypocrites if they preach against behaivor they de facto are accepting. Example: a pastor raving against women in authority/teaching men/ wearing pants/cutting their hair while being fine with women pastors or cheering Sara Palin for Prez.

    “”"”"”Silence is deafening”"”"”"”"

    Walking into a buzz saw, friend. Don’t get cute with me, plz. Ilad wished you luck –the Irish type is the best on the market as I’ve heard, I can only offer a national flavored curse - so don’t blow it, let’s stay respectful of each other. Dont make me mad.

    (gotta run for now , work puzzles ,sorry. Any math geniuses around? do reveal thyself,oh kind person! :) )

  125. Fundie wrote:

    Thanks for your response, Ode. I think we understand one another better. I am not attempting to patronize. I am attempting to be civil.

    I think we agree that the church as a whole has cherry-picked certain items to preach against without addressing the rampant adultery and other sin in the church.

    I think we disagree on whether it is wrong to preach against homosexuality.

    There it is in a nutshell.

  126. ode wrote:

    I think I just died and went to heaven!
    Back on old Earth people that self identify as fundies are mostly neanderthals, knuckle draggers unable to hold a civil conversation.Wonder what the gasoline prices are around here….

    Ok,lets start wrapping it up… How does Brian Free and his ilk “mislead folks”?
    Trying to prevent gays from getting married, blacks from using the same water fountain, women from getting equal rights, slaves from becoming free, etc were all powerful, strong beliefs, supported by many Bible verses, yet they have nothing to do with the eternal, everlasting truth of the Gospel . They are temporary issues, subject to change as society moves ahead, they matter today/will be discarded as embarrassing history tomorrow.

    Preaching them as Gospel in the year 2013 of our Lord will get donations, applause and amens from the folk who like to think of themselves as religious conservatives

    yet will spook away thinking, honest people and youth.

  127. irishlad wrote:

    125 How come Fundie you’re changing your position on certain issues,not on all mind,yet Ode,Wade,myself haven’t budged on our positions.What does that tell you?you’re compromising,or being civil? No,just someone who’s not sure about about what they believe.

  128. ode wrote:

    “”"”"”“Preach hate Gospel.” Please elaborate. I don’t believe in hating anyone, including gay people. That does not mean we have to endorse their lifestyle, does it?I value your input ””"”"”

    Here is the rest of my valuable input:
    Yes, it does mean you let them live their lifestyle in peace. Ok, let’s buckle up, I’ll move to real life, sharp examples of SG fans for whom I have the greatest respect.

    Very classy Ms Diana Brantley, a genius videographer and a kindest soul, while proudly talking on the forum I was once, about her 2 lovely, successful daughters - all three of them look like supermodels! - didn’t hide the nature of her girl’s relationship with a longtime boyfriend.

    The most honor worthy Ms. D.Ann Bailey, the only person there that mentioned volunteering for the poor, an outstanding lady, talked about being a divorced single mother and a mother of a divorced single mother.

    See, today we don’t consider it right to call Diana’s daughter a whore, as it was 100 years ago. We don’t kick variety of sexual sinners from churches , dont force scarlett letters on folks, and sincerely wish D. Ann’s daughter to remarry and become, Biblically, an adulteress.

    Why ? We progressed to understand that some sin has to be allowed for the greater good. Christian counselors today ADVISE to engage in what is, Scripturally, a great sin ,like divorce, even from just a verbally abusive spouse. They encourage remarriage for young divorced mothers to help avoid what is officially known in psychiatry as “generational fatherless curse” – so, in other words, D. Ann doesn’t one day become a grandmother of a divorced single mother. (Both D Ann and Diana look exceptionally pretty as well, presuming they are still available, btw)

    Why aren’t we claiming that 3x married SG artist Crabb goes to hell? He is on the same list as gays in the verse you gave from 1st Tim. We don’t mind adultery, but demand gays stay forever celibate? Where is Christian love in this? (and mind you, while there are enough pastors today who think being gay is not a sin, NOBODY thinks adultery isn’t.)

  129. Fundie wrote:

    #126. Unlike some of you, I’m actually able to be convinced by good arguments. A sure sign of radical, unbalanced ignorance is when a person is unwilling to change their views even when they are soundly debunked. Might want to think about that.

    #127. That is actually a very revealing post, and I sincerely mean that. Will you forevermore quit saying I am patronizing? Here is my view: 2 wrongs don’t make a right. Your neighbor’s sin doesn’t justify yours. Just because society strays from the Word in one area does not license you to take it a step further. Additionally, you will have trouble convincing me that divorce is Biblically prohibited in all circumstances. On the other hand, I hope we can all agree that fornication and adultery are wrong. As to the pastors who choose to ignore clear Scripture, that is not evidence that engaging in that conduct is righteous. It is evidence that those pastors are selling out to please the crowd. And boy do you hate that!!

  130. irishlad wrote:

    I think you’d be hard pressed to find anyone more “radical” or display “unbalanced ignorance” than a Bible literalist.Getting into a debate with someone from that stance is a sure way of snuffing out all logic….but i suppose if you’re a “fundie” logic doesn’t matter.Here’s an idea take a course at some liberal Christian college on Historical Critic or Higher Critic of the Bible as it’s sometimes known,it might open your eyes and your mind a bit.

  131. irishlad wrote:

    To elucidate on my previous post;Historical criticism or higher criticism is to study the Bible in it’s original historical context,like you would any ancient manuscript.Whereas historical-grammatical method is a fundamentalist/evangelical hermeneutical approach to Scripture,i.e.taking the Bible literally as 1 in 3 American Christians do.
    My point being the two are poles apart and agreement between the two is unlikely.

  132. John Situmbeko wrote:

    If the bible says those who practice homosexuality will not inherit the kingdom of God and people read it and laugh out loud, brush it off as if it is some kind of ridiculous joke (a reaction similar to that of the people in the days of Noah to the warning of the flood), if the Word of God cannot convince a person that homosexuality is a sin, nothing can.

    Same sex attraction is real, it does exist, more commonly in men than in women. If one has no control over who or what he is attracted to, it cannot be said he has sinned just by being attracted, as he has no control whatsoever over who to be attracted to and who not be attracted to. People do not wake up one day and say to themselves, ” self, today I you will be attracted to members of the same sex as you,” and it happens. Neither can they say, “I’ve had enough with members of the same sex, from now on I will be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex,” and it happens. Same sex attraction cannot be switched on and off, nor can it be chosen.

    A male who has same sex attraction can be sexually aroused simply by viewing the nakedness of another male. It doesn’t take concentration, it comes as easily as it would to a heterosexual male viewing the nudity of members of the opposite sex. Such a reaction to visual stimuli can not be learned, nor can it be achieved just by a person choosing to respond to the stimulus, choosing to be aroused. This is not rocket science, no normally functioning heterosexual male (I’m using males as examples because I’m one of them and I know first hand how our bodies respond) can alter their body’s response towards the sight of another naked male just by the power of choice.

    Homosexuality is a complex thing that most people think they understand, but they don’t. Many seem to think if you tell someone to stop being attracted to the same sex, he can if he so chooses, which is highly incorrect for in the first place, individuals don’t sit down and plan and then choose to be attracted to the same sex, and their bodies start reacting in accordance with their choice.

    However, being attracted to the same sex does not make homosexuality alright. Although one cannot choose who he is attracted to, one can choose to pursue or not to pursue an intimate relationship with the individual he is attracted to. Sexual relations between individuals of the same sex has always been and still is and will ever be sin, people may read the bible and interpret it in a way that would suit them and what they want, but the bible is plain and very clear regarding the issue, it is sin. If you have same sex attraction, celibacy is an option one might want to consider if ever he wants to live by the word of God. However if the word of God causes a person to suffer severe nausea attacks……………….
    Never once have I heard of someone dying of sex starvation, I’m still a virgin, and I’m normal and healthy. Of course some would consider it hell if the option of having sex were withheld from them. The gift of sex which God gave to Adam and Eve was given to be used on God’s terms.

    God loves His creatures, He has given us His word that we may live by it. If people are so allergic to his word, how would they survive in heaven, for He will speak and all who will there dwell will hear His voice.

    Same sex attraction is not a licence for sin. Just because one has a mouth does not mean he has a mandate to eat everything in sight. How then can same sex attraction be explained? Well, all I can say is, since sin entered the earth, God’s creation has not been the same, some weird stuff has happened to His beautiful creation over the years. Sad that some have chosen to give loose reign to the baser sinful nature.

  133. Wade wrote:

    John & Fundie and the likes… you are you leaving MANY MORE people that were on that list out of your QUOTE!?!?!?

    For FUN and to placate you I will even use what most of you type people consider the God Inspired only true translation of the BIBLE the KJV…

    Corinthians 6:9-10
    “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

    See that LONG LIST of other people!?!?

    Why are people like BFA and the other that Ode Quoted so concerned with Gay People and not concerned for OTHER People SOULS!!?!?!?

    Cause THOSE others DO NOT SELL!!!

    Ode spelled it out and Irishdude now has a flat spot on his head from beating it against the wall with me all these years!!!

    Why are so many people concerned for gay people and not ALL THE OTHERS on the LIST!?!?!?!

    TELL US!!! I been waiting for YEARS!!!

  134. Ode wrote:

    “”"”" Sad that some have chosen to give loose reign to the baser sinful nature.”"”"”"”"”

    Yes, some have, like God loving Christian parents of Jason Crabb, Kathy and Gerald, that claim devotion to God’s word and have 6 (so far) marriages between the two of them . I am sure theirs as well as some of their children’s public demands that gays stay celibate forever are well received :D

  135. Fundie wrote:

    John, thank you.

    Irishlad, that is such a dangerous proposition to start guessing which parts of Scripture were just suggestions or time specific commands. Ever read the verse, “Cursed is he who adds to or takes away?”

  136. irishlad wrote:

    Bring it on Fundie, ’cause you’re full of it .

  137. irishlad wrote:

    132 John, you’re verbosity was too much,i fell asleep have way through it. :/

  138. irishlad wrote:

    *half way…ooops.

  139. irishlad wrote:

    Hey Wadey looks like no one’s going to Heaven then? :) not to worry it was only written by that woman hating creep.

  140. Fundie wrote:

    Ode, I have never endorsed adultery or fornication. Emphasis on one area of immorality does not imply approval of others. We already agreed that the church has gone soft on some major problems.

    Irishlad is just running the mouth at this point. It’s rather entertaining. I think I’m out at this point. Pearls before…well, you get the point.

  141. ode wrote:

    Fund, we agree on some. And that’s as great as it gets. The rest is literally history in the making, hope you saw my # 126 - it posted later, Doug couldn’t fix the link while on the road. On gay rights issue writing is on the wall.

    Correct,NT states 2 divorce justifying reasons, yet most modern Christian div/remarriages don’t fit those loopholes. Considering both Crabbs claim to be believers, if Gerald’s divorce qualifies as biblical then Kathy Crabb is a whore that slept around on her husband. No way around it. So did his first wife. Hopefully the third one doesn’t or people will start getting suspicious;)

    Yes, you not endorsing adultery, yet while politely and quietly accepting whores in Crabb family, cohabitating couples, adulterers/resses in church, etc. You and Brian Free already learned how to tolerate socially accepted sin and be quiet about it. You boys know better then to appear rude.

    Do not endorse homosexuality in exactly the same way, and we are square.Treat gays with the same courtesy and mouth ,firmly shut on the issue. Otherwise you are hypocrites, are that will never fly in today’s world.

    That’s why I brought up real people’s examples- trying to judge social concepts abstractly is never objective.

  142. ode wrote:

    Re: Irishlad,no,he is not being entertaining here. I know when Ilad is being entertaining, and this aren’t it. He is being perfectly serious and right, the agreement between us is impossible due to different approaches to Scripture study. If I have time, I will make a post on this in the thread were KC poignantly asked ab. slavery issue.

  143. Fundie wrote:

    I openly oppose all forms of immorality. I am not inconsistent. Others may be. Do not lump me in that category.

  144. ode wrote:

    “”"”I openly oppose all forms of immorality”"”"

    No you don’t, Fundie. I bet if one of your co-churchgoers or local bachelors – to the best of my recollection, Wade, Coomers(?), quartetman and David Bruce Murray are still not spoken for – proposes marriage to an unbiblically divorced young mother, you’ll politely congratulate him thus openly dismissing “he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery” in Gospels of Luke, Matthew, Mark, and Paul’s letter to Corinthians , and supporting immorality that was unthinkable for believers to do until recently.

    Or when Hardwoods or Crabbs go into adultery mode again…. You will be quiet, as a normal person should be in 2013, regardless of his beliefs.

  145. ode wrote:

    Goyishe naches, as old folks say. Ilad or Wadey, somebody, beg you, next time stop me from getting into this…

    Instead of just copying Lukes’ idiotheocracy post 34 to FB or somewhere to share a laugh… No wonder SG spooks young people away :D

  146. Wade wrote:

    Ok Ode I will stop you!!! Irishdude will just drag ya down the aisle!!! I love the way people dodge the questions we ask!!! Cheerz…

  147. irishlad wrote:

    146 I wish Wadey…i’m too old and Ode’ too smart to get dragged anywhere. :-)

  148. Fundie wrote:

    That’s where you’d be wrong, Ode. You’re making a bunch of assumptions about me that are just factually false. Somehow I don’t recall finding “quiet, as a normal person should be in 2013″ anywhere in Scripture. That is a bizarre admonition for a Christian.

  149. Ode wrote:

    Fundie, brother, the platform is yours, you tell me, what you would do in the situation I described? Are you saying you would object to this? Tell me so I don’t have to make any assumptions.

    There are only 3 possible options:
    1. You accept the adultery as necessary in such case and encourage the man to go ahead with it;
    2. You tell him you oppose the act of adultery and wish he avoids it;
    3. You disagree with the adultery he is about to commit, but to comply with the social norms, don’t openly talk about it.

    Until you tell me your position on this, I have to presume you are pro-adultery in certain cases.

    Grab a shotgun ,Wade, he is getting away…

  150. Wade wrote:

    Ode… Some of these people are More Slippery than.. Ridin’ the skin bus in to Tuna Town!!

    Can’t imagine being ashamed of how I really felt and not be able to say it!!! How miserable way to live!!!

    Pick ONE FUNDIE!!!

    Ode…I am keeping ALL fire arms FAR AWAY from Irishdude!!! Those Irish People can disarm you and turn it around on ya… QUICKLY!!!

    I’d rather just let him lead us all astray… like he is GOOD AT!!!…that is much more fun and nobody gets shot!!

  151. Fundie wrote:

    Ode, I pick #2. When prompted by the Spirit, speaking up is the right choice. Same thing with fornication, homosexuality, or anything else.

  152. irishlad wrote:

    151 Hey Fundie the only spirit i’m familiar with is whiskey and that’s where we’ll part company my friend because i doubt you drink on a regular basis;well i stand by the old saying “never trust a man who doesn’t drink”

  153. Wade wrote:

    AMAZING how people can’t be honest when they can be. Obviously somebody KNOWS who Fundie is she goes to church with!!!

  154. irishlad wrote:

    Hahaha Wadey you’ve just put me of tuna fish sandwiches for life…that was bleeding hilarious and stomach curning in equal measures.

  155. Ode wrote:

    ‘When prompted by the Spirit’?
    Is that what you call Mrs. Fundie?You are a reasonable man! You Spirit is polite, prompts you to condemn sins very generally, abstractly and is very in line with the times.

    You helped me see that no SG fan or singer would ever dare to speak negative to Diana Brantley about her daughter fornicating /living with her boyfriend just like they wouldn’t about The Dove Brother’s bass Burman Porter’s lesbian daughter living with her girlfriend. (H/t to our elderly ladies, the gossip queens of AGForums).

    Neither parent, no bystander like me would allow such rudeness towards Diana or Burman – and he was pretty clear about supporting his girl. The man has my respect. You should see how buttkissers have lined up supporting him on Fb! All of a sudden SG fans are gay friendly, glory be to God ! :)

    that’s how the civil rights are being won…. Most old SG racists haven’t changed, they were silenced into racist closet. When they slowly die out, the new gen. of fans - those currently in the workforce where being antigay is akin to racist – will be the who SG groups will aim to please , and just as they stopped catering to racists, they’ll quit their antigay rhetoric.

    And that was very helpful to me, for its knowledge of your culture i am after here. :) Thanks again.

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