Six theories about Shoutin’ Time

No, I don’t mean the song of that title that was rendered both exhausting and exhausted by the Hoppers. Rather, I’m wondering if southern gospel crowds still shout like they used to? In the car this morning, I heard the Singing Americans’ “I Bowed on My Knees” from Live and Alive and then  the Perrys” “Praise Gawd It’s Settled I’m Saved” from Absolutely Positively Live and realized, when you hear those crowds roar, it feels like an artifact of an earlier time. Here’s the Perrys:

I don’t mean that crowds don’t get excited any more, nor do I mean to suggest that there aren’t certain churches where one could read the phone book and reduce to the crowd to convulsions of holy spirit anointing. Nevertheless, it seems like the collective screaming roar that breaks out on both the Perrys and the Singing Americans’ albums - the kind of thing the Kingsmen nearly trademarked - has been replaced by a more middle-brow politesse … lots of clapping, sure, and standing ovations, absolutely. But it’s less clear to me that crowds give up those great primal roar of enraptured pleasure in these latter days.

Perhaps my premise is flawed and I’ve misperceived the situation entirely. But let’s pretend for a moment I haven’t. So what might account for this state of affairs? Some possibile theories, which I offer by way of exploration and not as definitive accounts (as you’ll see, I’m not necessarily convinced of them myself in some places).

1. Live music is less spontaneous in the age of tracks and stacks, which makes it harder for groups to create the kind of unlooked for descent of glory-rolling joy that stands behind the scenes captured above. Consequently, crowds are conditioned to manage and lower their expectations for the endangered species of the unexpected. To wit: notice that while the Perrys are using a track in “Praise Gawd,” and the crowd is already amped up by the first encore, the real shoutin’ begins precisely when the track fails to come in at the right moment in the second encore, thereby creating this unexpected and pretty thrillingly precarious situation for Watts and the crowd … will she hold it? Will the track pick up? What if it doesn’t? What if she can’t? …  and the collective precarity of the unprogrammed moment, and her ability to pull it off induces the screamin’ fits (I always wonder when I hear Watt’s let out that spirit filled “oh yes” right after the track arrives around - it’s around 3′55″ - if Watts isn’t essentially saying “gosh that was close”). What’s the most recent southern gospel live album you’ve heard that captures this kind of moment?  

2. Fewer live albums are recorded. This could be a byproduct of No. 1 in a couple of different ways: first, even notionally live gigs are largely karaoke concerts that vary little from the sound of a studio album. And, second, the cost structures and profit margins for most groups are so heavily leveraged to the stack/track model of performance, few groups have the ability or willingness to invest in what it takes to put on fully live concerts.

3. Even when a group does put on a fully live concert, they may have become so accustomed to performing highly programmed sets that they (and their audiences) discover they’ve basically lost the mojo and moxie that’s required to pull off what English and Watts do in the examples above. I have absolutely no proof of this, but it certainly seems plausible to me that after 10 or 15 or (for many groups) 20 years of concerts that are almost entirely tracked and stacked, performers can lose that open-nerved sensibility that’s a part of all good live music. Sing with digital bands and backing vocals long enough, and those ecstatic instances of insight and instinct when a performer sees or feels or makes a way for an opening in the arc of the song that’s only possible in the interplay of genuinely live music - it seems possible that this sensibility could become dulled or numbed or sclerotic or oblated and all but disappear after enough disuse.   

4. Southern gospel has become so generically hybridized and interbred stylistically that the kinds of songs, and especially the kinds of endings, that have historically induced shoutin’ spells in southern gospel crowds (think three chords and a cloud of dust) are no longer a staple of the southern gospel stage. This feels both self-indulgently nostalgic (as if musical genres don’t or shouldn’t change over time) and perhaps just another version of No. 3 above.

5.  It’s all Gaither’s fault. Heheh. But think about it: Homecoming venerates southern gospel, but it’s a bourgeois and polite version of the music and its history. And Gaither audiences reflect this sensibility in their response to Homecoming music: Gaither audiences will clap and standingly ovate and gushingly buy product by the armload. But Gaither crowds just don’t, as matter of course, scream and shout (the Kingsmen had to behave themselves when they were allowed to sit on Homecoming concerts and, as a friend noted to me the other day, Anthony Burger’s style took on a certain muzaky politesse in his Gaither years that’s emblematic of the effect I’m trying, imperfectly, to capture here). This phenomenon is particularly curious given that Michael English made his name in the Gaither universe covering “I Bowed On My Knees” with just as much, maybe even more, vocal theatrically as he bestowed upon the song when Singing American fans were weeping and wailing at the wonder of it all (though it is true that English’s tone was noticeably more covered and darker in his Singing American days - he sounds older to me in the 1980s, frankly - before English’s joining the GVB and his turn toward CCM in the 1990s, when he brightened the overall color of his voice while also using a lot more throaty sound effects … all that growling and whining and melismatic carrying on). Maybe the difference is that, whereas the Kingsmen/Goodmans style of performance was purposefully designed to whip crowds up into a frothy frenzy, Gaither music is designed to stun audiences into a kind of dazzling Disneyfied awe (thus the big orchestral warhorses and movingly back lit power anthems etc). Hamill and Vestal wouldn’t go home till their crowds dissolved into puddles of tears and sweat and spiritual dissipation under the relentless pressure of their pounding sounds. Gaither wants you enchanted and leaving mesmerized by the larger-than-life magic of it all. Shorter version of this theory: what hasn’t Gaither influenced?   

6. The brave new digital world of post-production enhancements makes it awfully easy to airbrush into your “live” recordings the amped up roar of what more typically sounds like a baseball stadium after a homerun than a great gettin-up fit of gospel shoutin’ (still looking at you, Hoppers, though in fairness, and while I’m trotting out theories here, I have a theory that the popularity of the sampling of the completely unbelievable stadium roar on live albums was really inaugurated by the distant roaring crowd sampled into the GVB’s “Count on Me,” which is a rich irony, since that was not, of course, a live album at all, and the sample was supposed to be heard as a sound effect, as artificial). The theory here isn’t that no one ever spliced in canned applause in the analog days, but there was (what seems now to look like) a certain naive commitment to verisimilitude in live albums from the pre-ProTools and serial-sampling era. In those bygone days, live albums tended to aspire to capture in live recordings that unique shoutin’ sound of a gospel audience in the throes of enthrallment to close harmony. Of the four theories, I’m most distrustful of this one because it relies on precisely the kind of good-ole-days nostalgifying that I regularly call out in others. But these, dear readers, are the lengths to which I’ll go for gospel.   

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  1. observer wrote:

    good post. All are valid theories. I would imagine some combination of “all of the above”.

  2. William Boen wrote:

    Great article..I attended a lot of the older concerts you mention and i think you have called it like it is.

  3. Primal Roar wrote:

    I tend to induce painful sensations in hearing aid wearers and require volume adjustment each time I spontaneously occur, alonside with small bouts of incontinence.

  4. Mike S wrote:

    Doug, just when I start to lose faith in you, out comes the best article you’ve written in months on this site! This lack of live spontaneity is one of the single biggest factors in the slow demise of what has made southern gospel special.
    It was to hear what, for example, Kenny Hinson would do with a song live as opposed to the album, that made attending a Hinson concert such an anticipated experience. When I grew up in the mid 70’s and early 80’s, teen age Christian boys like me got together and compared how Kenny or Little Ernie or Vestal might have done something vocally unique on a song because of the electricity of the crowd (genuine in those days it seemed to my impressionable mind) and they really got into it.
    In the mid 80’s I attended an Inspirations concert in Springfield, Missouri and I still remember over 20 years later they sang “Looking for You” 6 times with all 4 of them walking through the crowd all over the auditorium as they did encore after encore.
    Now I know many of us make fun of the Inspirations vocally (sometimes for good reason) but that was an experience that has stayed with me all these years and it is the type of excitement you cannot get at a country or rock concert today that you pay $60-$100 a ticket to attend. You also cannot get that today with tracks. (What do you do? Run the track 6 times over and over? How do you decide when or if to end it?)

  5. Mike S wrote:

    Sorry, hit “enter” when I meant to hit the space bar…I wasn’t finished!

    Doug, your comments about the Gaither concerts being a “bourgeois and polite” version of southern gospel is very insightful. As even the lower middle class southern gospel audience has grown more prosperous and affluent, they are less likely to get into anything like shouting. Even the man shouting during “Love Lifted Me’ on the Kingsmen’s “Big and Live” (1973) has just got out of prison. He wasn’t yet worried about sophistication. And Jim Hamill used that story as a badge of honor for the Kingsmen for the rest of his career. He would tell how the producers wanted to take the “whooping and hollering” out because it didn’t sound professional, but he and Eldridge Fox said” If you take him out, you may as well take us off of it too” and of course the crowd would shout…or… politely applaud if it was after 1982 or so.
    You can probably draw a graph showing an inverse relationship between the southern gospel’s audience’s 401k balance and the likelihood of any shouting happening.

    Love or hate him, you know where is the most likely place to get something close to the spontaneity we used to get reguarly in the 70’s?…Jason Crabb…still uses live band, has the pentecostal bent and grew up with some of the same influences that I did. But as much as I love Jason…and I do love his singing (my son loves him even more) even he is getting more and more contemporary and the same dynamics are changing in his vocal presentations which Doug described in Michael Englilsh…more sensual (the contemporary sound) less genuine. If the Perrys could afford a complete live band they still have the bent to the type of concert I experienced as a teen-ager. Take a look on You Tube of their live rendention of “Did I Mention” at Pigeon Forge. But notice they had to do all the encores acapella. Had to turn off the tracks. It was like they ( and the audience) was freed from prison.

  6. CVH wrote:

    Interesting post and I’d agree with parts of each of the theories put forth. A few other thoughts…

    Regarding the first point, with fewer bands traveling these days compared to thirty or forty years ago, there is indeed much less spontaneity in most performances. Even if groups were working off a set list and had everything down including when to cry ’spontaneously’ and which songs to encore and when, groups in the past projected more of an air of raw excitement than they do today. I do think there are some outstanding performers on the road today but as our esteemed host points out, there’s a measuredness about it that creates an intangible lack of true excitement. That is, unless you’re seeing a group for the first time.

    It wasn’t until 1972-74 that major groups began using tracks in concert and even then it was usually once per show. The Gaithers used “The Church Triumphant”, Henry and Hazel Slaughter used their Rick Powell track of “To God Be The Glory”, The Imperials used a track they never released on a record at the time, “One Ordinary Life”; even The Downings used the track “Love - 1 Corinthians 13″ from that odd one-off project he did. And as an audiophile I took great pleasure in those few moments because even though the vocals weren’t studio-mix quality ‘live’, to hear those big, fully orchestrated tracks on those Voice of the Theatre speakers filling a concert hall was as close to the Rapture as I thought I’d ever come.

    In fact to me the best live album track moment is from “The Speers and Doug Oldham Live!”, which they recorded at the historic Massey Hall in Toronto in 1974. Doug was using his track for “My Tribute” and The Speers were singing on top of the bgv’s. As they all hit and held the last chord (Brock was sloppy hitting his last note-wish they’d mixed him back), they end with a perfect cut-off and the very end of the track rolls across the hall and you can feel the energy as it slaps against the back wall and melts away into a series of overtones surrounded by applause. Still gives me chills.

    On your second point, those would seem to be good reasons why groups/labels would shy away from live records. Same in secular music, except for classical. In the 70’s and 80’s live records were pretty cool. In the last 20 years not so much, especially with the use of video on group websites, Christian cable networks (yes, even TBN…I think I just threw up in my mouth), YouTube and groups hawking DVDs (”Doug, Bill Gaither on line two for you…”) besides between Pro Tools, Auto-Tune and other studio toys how much of any live record would truly be live?

    #3, along with those thoughts, I’ve noticed an increase in hype and a declining degree of feigned sincerity on-stage in recent years. They’re like animatronic figures that know when to smile and sing and when to look down and fold their hands reverently. I guess I’m not questioning their sincerity, at least not all of them, but sometimes they seem animated during the song then almost bored in-between when the emcee is talking.

    On the Gaither World Domination Tour I’m not so sure he’s a root cause but he’s certainly had the vision and entrepreneurial wherewithal to exploit it. Most creatives don’t seek to push boundaries or radicalize things as much as they try to refine it, repackage it and bring it to a mass audience. And if you can make a hundred bazillion dollars doing that, more power to you.

    Last point: go back and listen to the live records from the 70’s or 80’s by The Hinsons or Goodmans or Kingsmen. Check out The Speers or The Rambos “Live At Soul’s Harbor” or The Thrasher Brothers. The Downins or either of The Imps records, 1970’s Gospel’s Alive and Well” or 1973’s 2-record set “Imperials Live” or the gold standard “Performance” by the Oaks from 1971. Listen to the occasional horrible mixes; on a couple of them if you listen closely on headphones you can hear an engineer totally reverse the stereo field in the middle of a song. They didn’t even try to smooth over the jump cuts when they were doing the sequencing to balance the two sides of the record. Some were just absurd. But back then people didn’t care; it isn’t as though you expected to be listening to a continuous 60-minute recording of a live show. Plus if you were part of the sewing circle at The Bible-Rite Second Baptist Church of Bozeman, Montana a live record may have been the closest you’d ever get to seeing the Oaks or Imperials in concert. Or in my case, to relive those magical moments listening to Dony McGuire straining his spleen grinding out “It’s My Desire”. Ah, memories…

  7. JE Butler wrote:

    The Dove Brothers are on the road every week with a full band. Their concerts are wonderful and they have the flexibility tracks will never give. There are others of course, EH&SS, Issacs, Primitive, Kingdom Heirs etc…

    We need to support well those who bring their music to the stage without depending on tracks. I know it cost more $$$, but I would rather pay more and get more. Sounds like most of you do too…


  8. Bud wrote:

    I attended a Kingsmen concert in a high school gym in the late ’70’s. Not only was the crowd shouting, a woman began dancing. She was so caught up in the moment that she did not realize she was pinballing off Little Ernie. He sidestepped and she moved on. The song ended, Ernie gave Jim a helpless glance, and Jim took off on the encore. I always wondered if Jim took off hoping the dancing woman would come back.

  9. Wade wrote:

    Yeppers JE… and we STILL have The Brothers Band Challenge!!!

    and NOBODY wants to go!!!

    Old Paths are the closest we ever got to an agreement!!!

    This is WHY the NQC does not want them ON the show!!!

    None of the BOARD Members Groups wants them on cause they are nationally equal and they do not want to look bad… but it is OK to invite the Oaks or Gatlins to come sing, who sing country music… but they are COUNTRY ACTS and it is ok to look SUCKY up against them!!!

    If I were the Doves I would find a small showcase venue close by on Mon or Tue night and invite people who have NQC ticz for half price!!!

  10. JE Butler wrote:

    I bet the DBQ would love that. I understand they made a pure economic decision to not be at NQC…

  11. KC wrote:

    You are so awesome, Doug. I’m looking forward to Gaither dazzling me with Disneyfied awe at NQC this year. It’s the only reason I’m going. =)

  12. Jackie wrote:

    Can you tell me what you mean when you say “English’s tone was…more covered and darker” earlier and then “he brightened the overall color of his voice”. I do know he sounded different singing CCM than he did singing straight up So Gospel but I don’t really know what you are talking about. Hope you don’t mind me asking.

  13. Gospel Fan wrote:

    #9 Wade we had the Dove Brorhers Band at our church and I’m sorry to say I can’t invite them back. It could have been just a bad day for one of thier band members, but multiple members of our church shared thier displeasure with the rudeness of one them. Maybe I can convince them he was just having a bad day. We’ll see.

  14. Gospel Fan wrote:

    Sorry for mispelling ” their”.

  15. Wade wrote:

    Gospel Fan — How was the performance on stage that night at your church!?!?!? Did you like that!?!?

    Hate to hear any time some one is offended because a performer is not as friendly as some would like.

    Can tell you I know all those guys and I BET I know which one you are speaking of if it is a BAND Instrument player!!?!?!

    Many uber talented musicians and other ARTIST TYPES in any field often lack good social skills that many others believe they should have. Much like an accountant or geek type people that is just how it is and most often, unless it is just a BAD DAY, it is just pure SHYNESS!!!

    Know it is hard to believe that a stage performer would be shy but it is a fact. Many musicians if asked to speak on stage would be terrified all the while being able to bend the strings or keys of an instrument with no problem because it is how THEY EXPRESS THEMSELVES!! They are good at THAT… they have PRACTICED for years to be good at it!!

    Then you have people like Michael English who is one of the nicest people in the world at times but is painfully shy around people he does not know. But yet can get on a Stage and rip out song and leave you with your jaw on the floor!!

    Often too the person does not know how to take a compliment so it can come across as being moody!!!

    Unless you are a performer it is hard to know the feeling and you feel terrible when you might not come across as friendly as some one might want you to be!!!

    For me the worst thing in the world is being at a comedy club where often there is not a back stage area to hide out before you perform and you are forced to mingle with the crowd much like you find your self at a church.

    If you are about to perform it is very distracting to be right out in the middle of people you are about to perform for because you have to go to that place in your psyche in preparing for the stage and that seldom makes one good for being social!!!

    If you enjoyed the over all stage presentation give folks another chance. None of those guys are doing if for the money or they would being playing another kind of music!!! Pray for them and ANY performer that travel the roads to provide good clean church and family entertainment!!!

  16. Gospel Fan wrote:

    #15 Wade, it was a bit more country flavored than I prefer, but yes it was positive country. We have had them on several occasions and I much more preferred the older version. But that is just my opinion. I can try and convince some folks of shyness. By the way I have been on stage many times myself and know many times you only get one chance, so that first impression is very important.

  17. Ode wrote:

    Instrument player? :D My first guess was. good ol Porter had one too many beers ;)

    Mike, you didn’t specify which rock concerts you attend that give you such impression, but in my experience at christian Winter Jam - the tour’s attendance last year was over half a million- rock groups like RED generate the level of excitement that makes that Perrys at Pigeon Forge video look like a lively funeral in comparison. People literally outshout the music and encores are fantastic- public sings together with the band or by themselves, often the entire songs. Today’s teen Christian boys, just like you, marvel at “vocally uniqueness of a song because of the electricity of the crowd and really get into it”. Nothing is new under the sun. There were generations before us and will be generations after, doing the same thing, only for different musicians…Vestal was special FOR HER TIME. RED is special FOR THEIR TIME.

    All due respect to Perrys musical genius- and I usually don’t care for mixed bands, “can’t afford a band” is like saying “my burger restaurant can’t afford meat, so we sell buns with cheese and condiments instead”.  Can’t afford it? Then sing as a hobby. Make it not your primary source of income. Volunteer your talent!  Karaokeans want to have their cake and eat it…. Wadey, amen this for me, please

    (Also… twitting ugly hatemongering /supporting the fight to have Doug Harrison, Kirk Talley, The Dove Brothers Band bass singer’s daughter etc to treated like outcasts, while lamenting  they can’t kill them Old Testament style …The Perrys DESERVE not to be able to afford a band! )  

  18. Mike S wrote:

    I’m sure what you say is true. Our own particular time in history is not superior to anyone else’s. My point was about the difference in Southern Gospel now and 25-35 years ago. There is little debate that it has lost something unique, I was trying to articulate what has been lost for me– many others obviously feel the same.

    As to the Perrys, again it was only concerning the type of presentation– of “selling” a song that the track/stacked presentations of today have taken away (and the Perrys use tracks as well, of course). They are one of the few groups left that occasionally have moments of what has been missing from southern gospel concerts in the last generation.
    They are not my favorites, they are less polished vocally than say, Greater Vision, the Hoppers or certainly GVB– and you and I agree that ALOT of groups should be doing it part-time and leave the full-time traveling to the top echelon. But in fact, Southern Gospel itself just doesn’t generate the income for even the very best to keep a full-time band on the road.
    I don’t know anything about the Perry’s views or tweets (I don’t tweet) concerning homosexualtiy- my comments were simply about those encores of “Did I Mention”–a brief whiff of another time

    Yes, I’ve been to both country and Christian rock concerts- I’ve seen, I think what you term “excitement” but I think we are talking about two different flavors of “excitement” Maybe we need a different word to distinguish them. The bright lights, noise and energy of the Christian rock I’ve witnessed came from some different place–we could all debate where that might be. It all depends on whether you like that style or not–I’ve tried, over and over- I don’t.
    That being said, there is alot of ’show” in some southern gospel that’s more about either sexual energy or sensual emotionalism than most of the followers would care to admit.
    Enjoyed your comments

  19. Wade wrote:

    Amen Ode — I have had those same thoughts for a while!!! But I do like to serve meat with the buns I am working with!! ;-)

    Gospel Fan — If you had them many times before then was it a FIRST IMPRESSION!?!?!?

    Understand what you are saying about your opinion you liked them better in a MORE Traditional FEEL!!!

    Was this an IN THE CHURCH event!?!?

    Did they sing country songs IN the church!?!? If so do you remember what they were!?!?

    ODE — So you are saying that the Perry’s made those kinda remarks!?!?!? WoW… when you see something like that drop a copy & paste or a link here. Making those kinda remarks can kinda bring Karma Down on ya!!! Think they might be experiencing that now!!

  20. NG wrote:

    Ode: Can you please provide a link to those Twitter comments you cite.

  21. Mike S wrote:

    If you really, truly believe in “karma” I don’t know why you would bother listening to gospel music. A belief in “karma” is the antithesis of belief in a sovereign God. To suggest that Tracy’s illness is some kind of karma payback (for comments that are unproven or maybe uncharacteristic of what was really said) is betraying an atheistic, ungodly worldview.
    Why not listen to some kind of music that more accurately celebrates your worldview? There is plenty of it out there– some of it is even labeled “Christian”

  22. Wade wrote:

    Mike S #21…. can you fit …”antithesis” … in your post one more time!?!??

  23. Curious 1 wrote:

    I think you’re basically correct in all your reasons. Your Gaither summary is bang-on. When that first Homecoming video came out, the genre immediately changed into “Grandpa’s music.”

    I’ve never been a big Tragically Hip fan, but I love this quote from Gordon Downie‎ - “Every night, something should happen that doesn’t happen any other night on the tour.” This hasn’t occurred in sg for years. Any spontaneity in the industry checked out decades ago.

  24. Aaron Swain wrote:

    Just got back from hearing the Dove Brothers Band at a private event. The event was in a small fellowship hall, so it made for a very intimate, up close and personal setting. This was my first time ever seeing the group (I don’t count NQC appearances), and I can say that the hype put forth by Wade and others is well-deserved. The live band is a tremendous addition; the energy is tangible, and the group’s material now speaks to many people, not just the typical SG crowd. I am hoping my videos turned out well, because I got just about everything they did tonight.

    Gospel Fan, you must have gotten them on an off-night, because every member that I got to speak with was very friendly and personable.

    The Dove Brothers Band have a great thing going, and I’m looking forward to seeing where it takes them years down the road.

  25. Auke wrote:

    The first ‘live’ recording that I discovered wasn’t live at all was Gram Parson’s take on a old country song entitled ‘Hickory Wind’…man you heard folks talking, shoutin’. It turned out to be completely ‘fixed’ in a studio. I was disillusioned to say the least…disgusted. Kingsmen Qt made the best ‘live’ albums ever! Love Gaither and love Michael English! But as far as live albums go the GVB never made one…at least not one that ever felt live.

  26. John Situmbeko wrote:

    I’ve always wondered why Gaither does studio versions of GVB live recordings. Doesn’t it cost more £, even with his own studio at his disposal? Take for example the pure and simple album, the live performances on the videos could have very well made a great live CD and saved Gaither some mon£¥. Live albums are great, but I do however consider God Gave The Song and Something Beautiful as THE BEST albums ever to be recorded by Gaither. The vocal and musical clarity on these albums is second to none, he had his and Gloria’s Homecoming Friends sing his and Gloria’s songs in a way that I can only describe as angelic! Of course the orchestrations on the two albums are great, so much so that “disneyfied awe” falls short in its attempt to describe even half the awe that overwhelms me when I listen to these albums. I can only imagine what my lot would be if I were to be exposed to such glorious music in a live setting! Whenever I play the music, the whole house seems to be encampassed by a throng, a great magnitude singing as if in the very presence of God. When all the voices are raised and swell harmoniously to proclaim “Let Freedom Ring!” as if aimed to reach God’s throne beyond the stars, I reach out to cling to the nearest piece of furniture, lest I fall to the floor like one robbed of his last morsel of health. Even when the singers bring their voices down to a whisper as they sing “Feeling at Home” with the sweet strains of piano music accompanying their voices, the effect of the music on my soul is noticeable by all who behold. I appear as one in a trance. No. In a vision, as if…. Okay enough praise for these albums. (I HIGHLY recommend them to all Gaither music lovers who enjoy those songs where the whole Homecoming choir sings! They are worth the £. No. They are of more worth than the £). Whatever magic Gaither conjured to produce such lovely music, I beg for more. I yearn for more.

    Although God Gave The Song and Something Beautiful are studio albums that lack the usual cheering and whistling that accompanies regular Homecoming recordings, I do find them to stand at par and higher than most live recordings when it comes to quality.

  27. NG wrote:

    #25 Love that Gram Parsons-Emmylou Harris medley from the LP “Grievous Angel” of the two songs — Cash on the Barrelhead and Hickory Wind. Pretty obvious it is not live since song listings says that it is a “Medley Live from Northern Quebec.” Highly unlikely Parsons would be touring the French-speaking area of that part of Canada.
    Agree with you on the Kingsmen live albums but also like the ones I have by Oaks, Stamps, Imperials and Singing Americans.

  28. Wade wrote:

    Auke… Indian Live the bill did was not bad!!! But yeah not like The KANGSMENS!!

  29. Wade wrote:

    SISTERS — Talk about wanting to SHOUT!!!

    Sisters of the Ruppe Variety sang today at my Mom & Dad’s Church!!! A Huge Wanna be Mega Church in Northwest Ga. just outside of Chattanooga!!! The Parkway Baptist Temple. Because many of you think I am too negative let me tell you they were smart… NO Choir, although they have a Good one!!! Then Sister sang the offertory… “Can’t Keep from Singing” then the Pastor spoke a shorter than normal sermon, especially from some one as self important as he is… and then Sister came and did there thing.

    Of course since it was Mothers Day, well I did my duty to HONOR my Mom and went to church with her. Boy did Sisters make that an EASIER Decision. This has become an annual date for them. Have saw them their the last 3 years but think they’ve been doing it longer!!!

    While I was setting there listening the cliche… “Would listen to them sing the phone book!!!”… came to mind!!

    Gawd those girls can sing!!! They did their standards and you just could not pick it apart!!!

    Telling you that while Valerie and Kim can sky IMO Heather is one of the most under rated singers rolling. I never heard a woman sing such low FULL Sultry notes!! They featured Heather more today than I have noticed in the past!! So it was easier to notice. It looked like a few times she was holding the mic much like a male bass singer would. Which I thought was funny!!!

    Of course Kim & Heather were bombing the shoes!!… and of course they were easy on the eyes!!!

    But then towards the end of the program they did 3 medleys of song you might have heard on Singing Jubilee back in the day!! The only track was somebody playing GREAT PIANO!! No Bass even or Orchestrations of any kind!! It was AMAZING!!

    Did not even notice much EFFECTS on the vocal mics. Just FLAT FOOTED stood there and SANG!! JUST SANG!!!

    Think my dream concert would be Sister & Dove Brothers Band!!! That would be a GREAT PACKAGE… Sisters & Brothers!!

    If you get a chance to catch these young ladies GO HEAR THEM!!!

    Speaking of The Dove Brothers… The Dove Brothers Challenge is still out there… STILL NO TAKERS!!!

  30. Auke wrote:

    #NG Stamps, Imps and Oaks did release good live albums too, but the Kingsmen albums were more exciting. I like the Oaks/Imps and The Stamps better when it comes to the singing alone…but The Kingsmen live albums are nothing short of legendary because of the mc work of Hamill the rowdy audience etc. #Wade are you referring to ‘Back Home in Indiana by the GVB? That actually is their best live album..still way to polished and really a video…to staged for my liking. I would love to see/hear them without other support acts, with a real live band (not a band that plays along with the studio tracks)..and just do a gig…not a show. Love to hear them fronting a tough young band..that just play the heck out of the great tunes they do. I love the Sisters too….they can sing like no other, and they are all very pleasing to look at.

  31. Gospel Fan wrote:

    #19 Wade, yes it was a church venue, and about the only song I rememeber not being country (mostly old Oaks songs), was “Oh What A Saviour” or “Bridge Over Troubled Water”.

    #24 Aaron, Don’t think it was on off night. (1) It was a sunday morning service, (2) I think Wade knew right at first probably whom I was speaking of.

  32. DLP wrote:

    #13- I know these guys too and not sure of who you spoke of. I did experience what was a funny episode at a church service a few weeks ago. One member of the group and I pick at one another often. He was working the product table and I was trying to pay for a cd. I spoke his name and he turned to me and said in a faux hateful manner…”What do you want?” I replied in the same manner “I’m trying to pay for this cd!” Well a lady walked up at that moment and looked at us like she couldn’t believe what she heard. We laughed and he picked some more then he waited on her. In other words sometimes people walk up on a conversation or exchange and not knowing the personalities can read it wrong.

  33. DLP wrote:

    #17- Ode you crack me up! I think you must be confusing ole Burman with one of the bass singing legends! LOL

  34. weber wrote:

    #31.. Mostly old Oak songs…. (smile)

  35. Ode wrote:

    18 ,Mike, exactly.Not being able to afford a band shouldn’t stop  SG groups from performing as long as paying customer base hasn’t dried up; or just  sing for free(mouth, gifted horse, look) . Dollar Store doesn’t sell top quality stuff either, yet  their stock is doing quite well. God made a pair for every boot, as they say in my family when yet another oddball gets married.

    Elderly market is actually quite lucrative, formerly popular artists of all genres still make money signing, minus band, to moderate to small size elderly crowds. Half of  Israeli singers  I thought were long dead are still successfully fleecing  various Florida retiree, esp. European immigrant communities 13 months out of a year. So why not ? Even the old pond still has fish in it.   
      SG karaoke bands just can’t consider themselves to be top quality entertainment, complain lack of young people’s interest, low booking and revenue.  Can’t afford to be top notch - stay were you belong and be content. 

    My point in post#3 was -  elderly just can’t produce the same level of excitement, physically or emotionally. I  chaperoned  2 teen  girls once, saw college age, young or older adults and the very old  crowd at Frankie Valli  concert – all have their own way of acting at a concert. Comparing  SG crowds’ excitement  of 25 years ago to today’s  is apples, oranges ,for average  SG crowd is overall much grayer then it was a quarter century ago, as photos testify.       
    As for rock … When guitars, drums and Elvis’ hips first appeared on the horizon many pastors and secular moralists called it devilish and staged record burnings.  “Everyone is someone else’s fundie”. Google spits out pages and pages of angry websites that claim SG is on the road to Hell.

  36. McCray wrote:

    Gospelfan the band only do two oaks songs “smile on me” And “I Know” so I don’t know what songs you are referring as mostly Oaks Songs not that I don’t like the Oaks Songs ! If some of your members were offended by one of the band members let me be the first to apologize ! Sometimes AM shows are tough after you have done a long show the night before and after riding all night then get up at 7 am to set up for a 11am service but that’s part of it and we should remember to be extra nice to the people ! Though sometimes the people are not so nice to us with smart questions and there unbelievable wisdom on how to perform ! Glad you prefer the songs we recorded from the past and we still do them from Operator, Rain , Getaway Jordan, we do these song in almost every show and if we did its amazing that the country style is what you remember ! I’m sure we did the song When He Calls My name but you don’t remember that one either? Did we sing Amazing Grace ? I’m sure we did we open with it every show or perform it in the first five to eight songs ! So with that being said that’s five SG songs but the Country is what you remember ! I’m not sure what Church you attend but I know our song list ! If it was a 30min service some of these songs we might not had time to do when I think about it ! If so man I hate we didn’t get to perform those tunes for you maybe next time nope I forgot you can’t have us back !!!! Well maybe you can come see us at another venue !

  37. Ode wrote:

    Wade, NG!(Eye roll) twits /videos of SG homophobes from august 2012 are forgotten ancient history to you, fellas? Chick Fil A, Support of Death Sentence for  Homosexuality Bill by Chick-Fil- hAte’s  sponsored radical anti-gay groups like  Focus on the Family, Uganda bill, fight for the right of Christians to  bully gay kids, despite gay kids’ suicides… c’mon.   

    Mike, Wade is a Christian. We don’t worship Sun god on SunDay or fertility goddess on “Easter” – “karma” is just a figure of speech.  Eccles.10 presents Judaic moral concept of divine retribution and Paul in letter to Timothy states that one who does evil to his own family is worse than a heathen. So if I were Lauren Talley, I’d be afraid to betray my uncle by supporting antigay groups as she did…And if I were Libby Perry (Oh I wish I could sing alto! Or just sing, for that matter) – I wouldnt deny others the right to hold the loved one’s hand when he is sick…..

  38. McCray wrote:

    Let me put it this way ! The Dove Brothers Band quit putting Labels on who or what we are ! In other words if it’s a good song no matter the style and we like it we will sing and play it ! So if we want to bring back a song from SG past we will ! If we want to do a Country Song that we feel has a message we will ! Everybody want like what we do so there is nothing I can do about that but we have enough that do ! If you want to see and hear what we are about buy a ticket or come to a show and decide for yourself !

  39. DLP wrote:

    #35 - Ode…You’re right on!

  40. Hector Luna wrote:

    I think Mr. Dove can provide clarity on what he’s trying to accomplish without being personally defensive about what he’s trying to accomplish. I don’t think as many people attack their music or style as he might think. Our assumptions of others produce how we behave towards those same people.

    The Dove Brothers got a market and I say run with it. They’re pretty good. Want to call it positive entertainment? Go with it! Want to call it ministry? Go for it! There’s enough room to have both in this industry.

  41. McCray wrote:

    Thank ya Hector .

  42. McCray wrote:

    I have tried to explain what we are doing many times . Now if I come off defensive or if I come off upset I don’t mean to be ! There has been many rumors about the Dove Brothers going country some have said that we left Southern Gospel ! We do Both now we don’t do drinking and cheating songs but we will do a song that deals with life’s ups and downs. We still sing a lot of Southern Gospel songs and all of our Southern Gospel hits ! Now we have had four hits that have a Country sound ! Like Hold on, little good news , I recall and He made a Change in me ! So we have had success with that style ! Two of the biggest songs we do now live is Bridge over trouble water and the country hit Won’t let go we do those two songs every night and the response of the people is remarkable ! Are we the same group we were back in 98 NO we are not but we still do some of the same songs ! Like I said instead of listening to those who try to put us down or give there opinion come check us out yourself and then decide ! If you like stacks and tracks or just four guys and a piano dressed in three piece suits and every song talking about the same thing over and over, you might not like our show ! Now i am not putting any of those artist down because I enjoy them . If you like Entertainment with a message then I believe you will enjoy the Dove Brothers Band ! I really don’t know what else to say.

  43. Wade wrote:

    The Dove Brothers Band Challenge is still out there!!!

  44. weber wrote:

    I think what Gospel Fan is trying to say is the program in general sounded like the Oaks from the seventies.. that was my take on them as well. Since the Oaks are still traveling not sure why they would need a tribute band, if only in sound..

  45. nber wrote:

    The Dove Brothers for me are the most exciting thing in SG right now. I wish someone would bring them to Eastern Canada. They are coming to Houlton, ME in Sept., but alas I don’t have a passport, so I can’t get across the border.

  46. Wade wrote:

    If I had a group and some one said they sounded like Oaks from the 70’s I would take that as a HUGE compliment!!!

    There are tribute bands for almost ever legendary group that ever walked on stage. Many of those legendary acts still tour but there are tribute bands playing more intimate venues every week!!!

    Can’t believe weber is still on here being jealous!!

  47. McCray wrote:

    I’ve said all I’m gonna say about the band ! May God bless all of you and come see us !

  48. Mike S wrote:

    Thanks for your reply. I’m thankful Wade is indeed a follower of Christ. (you seem to know, I’ll take your word for it). But the “figures of speech” we use mean something. Anyone who comes on here and reads about karma coming down on someone will take something away from that about why things happen. If we are followers of Christ, we should watch what our “figures of speech ” communicate and change them if needed. Me included.

  49. Ode wrote:

    13, Oh, Carolina Belle, nice to see you ringing in :) I was kidding, I like sg to the extent it reminds me of Barbershop, and there seems like bass singer is always the butt of jokes . Maybe they are believed to be the most thickskinned

    I am sure ol Burman can hold his drink just as well as JD could - from all I read Sumner never allowed it to affect his stage presence

  50. ode wrote:

    Might be off topic for gospel blog, but Doug is a professor of linguistics, so we will let us get away away with it ;)

    “”””Anyone who comes on here and reads about karma coming down on someone”””””

    Tell you more, the same nosy bastard will also complain why did we xtians named our main holiday after the heathen goddess, but I see your point, “Easter” is seen as adopted Christian word now, yet karma is still mainly the term from different religions. Fair enough, Mike.

    Wadey, scratch out karma, will call it “ what goes around, comes around”, unless there is single English word for it? (in modern  hebrew  there are few, depends on one’s religiosity level,  use “reshimo” –predestination of future based on your current actions;or the  Tanach ( Eccl) quote I brought up;  and in modern language it’s rather secular “stoplighting”, which best covers up the concept, imho .If you run the stop light many times, eventually you will face the pain;).

  51. Chuck Stevens wrote:

    It’s been about a year since I saw The Dove Brothers band in Concert. Mabee Center in Tulsa. It was the bright spot of the night. The LIVE band took me back to when every concert was this way. You came in and there was electricity in the air when you saw the Stage set up and ready for a great night of music. Now days you come in and it’s a Piano and a bunch of flowers to fill up the stage. I hope the Dove Brothers keep giving us great performances for years to come. And thank you to McCray for going the extra mile to keep a live band on the road. It’s not as easy as some people think.Go out and see them, they give you your money’s worth. You will be glad you did!!

  52. Wade wrote:

    Thanks Ode I will just call it KARMA because that is what it is!!!

    Some people that get on silly shit like that is the “antithesis” of what a Gospel Music Fan should be!!! Y’all know all those judging, hatin’ red meat gets the crowd stirred up to agree for simple amens & applause or to raise FUNDS type people and their FOLLOWERS!!!

    Heard a preacher on Mothers Day throw in some red meat about homosexuals I did not understand the PLACE for that in a Mothers Day Sermon… but he got some cheap amens and applause!! What’s really funny is he has no idea he has a gay child that has not come out yet!! lololo ;-)

    I’ve known a FEW Christians (especially Dads) that have had to deal with that issue and it is funny to see Karma serve them up a BIG ole Plate of CROW!!!! That’s what happens when you find out instead of being a loving Christian they have been the “antithesis” for many years!!

  53. Gospel Fan wrote:

    To each his own I guess. I like positive songs from any genre also, but I like a little more spiritual songs in a sunday morning church service. But there again my personal preference. Bottom line, and I will probably be called on the carpet for this, we will not spend our $3000- $5000 on this kind of service again. God bless everyone.

  54. observer wrote:

    i will pay money to see Dove Brothers, Dixie Echoes, Inspirations, Freemans. If I pay money for just about anybody else in the industry i almost feel cheated. Could have bought the CD for less and heard the same thing anytime I wanted…

  55. DLP wrote:

    #53 - Sorry you feel that way Gospel Fan.

  56. McCray wrote:

    Gospel Fan I understand that ! If your gonna pay the bill you want it your way ! That shows once again the power of the dollar and I don’t mean that in a defensive or smart way ! May God bless you in all that you do and I pray that the next group you have will be the best spirit filled group that your money can buy ! Love ya in the Lord and remember to keep the Dove Brothers Band in your prayers !

  57. Wade wrote:

    People been BUYING the SPIRIT for a LONG time!!!

    I’d rather be entertained wholesomely straight up than to have a CONTRIVED SPIRIT which at least 90%+ of the Nationally Touring groups do with all their phony baloney red meat preaching about gays and sob stories to remove people from their money!!

  58. weber wrote:

    My suggestion to any one dropping a load a cash for a group is to converse with the promotor make sure no recent personal changes, this often completely changes the groups sound and capabilities to deliver quality music. Also visit their websites and read them thoroughly.. if Gospel fan would have done this he would have been able to view the middle of road tunes from the video clips. Hat tip to McCray for disclosing the sound direction from traditional quartet to what they present today on the website. However, not everyone is going to visit the site for one reason or another so their will be suprises along the way.
    Wade, you spew so much venom towards gospel singers that are not the DBB, I dont why you even follow the industry. Yea there are a bunch of phonies out there, but you are no better than they are.
    If talking about gays bothers you so much just come out…

  59. Gospel Fan wrote:

    #57 Wade, I guess I will look for the 10%….LOL

  60. McCray wrote:

    If you don’t like it you don’t like it nothing wrong with that ! Like the saying goes different strokes for different folks ! There’s enough artist to satisfy ! Songs speak to people in different ways ! We just didn’t sing the kind of songs or enough of those songs that touch and speak to Gospel Fan ! We didn’t call his kind of program or service ! It happens and will happen again somewhere down the line . You win some you lose some ! Some would think that there is enough gospel in Oh what a savior to save the world but some feel you need more of those songs in a program. Nothing wrong with that either . All I can say is come to one of our shows and decide and see for yourself what the band is all about !

  61. Jonathan Sawrie wrote:

    #57 Wade: “I’d rather be entertained wholesomely straight up than to have a CONTRIVED SPIRIT…”

    Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner!

  62. Ode wrote:

    52,Wade, tell me you didn’t go into such crazy church on your own free will, but took your mom to a church concert or so?
    You always made an impression on me as an adult, mature Christian with true, not phony, faith- you should patiently tolerate the lesser brothers, remember 1 Corinthians, even if what I eat,and let alone say, causes my brother to fall into sin, I shouldn’t do that not to cause them to fall.

    If xtian babies are butthurt from the word “karma”, i’ll avoid it.

    53, Gospel Fan, 3000-5000?! You didn’t miss any zeroes? For FIVE PEOPLE? Do they cover your gas/expenses/ per diem at least, too ? David McCray, in all seriousness – why don’t you go to secular venues , fairs, or fests ,you write original material, got a band, and in my humble, good enough to make it, instead of just chruches? Thanks in advance for the reply, I am really curious.

    58, Our good Weber grill, the review of Doug’s book in his last post answers your question. SG’s shameful theology, perpetual backstabbing and hypocrisy don’t prevent a decent gospel quartet (quintet, sextet) from appealing to me musically.

    I also consider Bono’s political views, Islam memorabilia on the wall of my fav lunch joint, my head pastor’s preaching and much of Federal Government to be awfully bad, too, yet that doesn’t prevent me from paying for U2 CDs, chicken shawarma, Sunday worship and US work visa extensions.

  63. McCray wrote:

    Ode we perform there as well ! We are the new kids on block so it’s taking a little time to get enough of those dates to really make a differents but we are getting more each month ! I have Nine on my bus . The QT and a five piece band ! So just add the numbers !

  64. Wade wrote:

    ODE — It was Mothers Day… I went to church with her because I am a good son!! Plus won’t lie Sister (Ruppes) were there and I love to hear and watch them sing!!!

    The preacher is the very reason I do not go to that church. It is the church I grew up in and used to be cool!!

    But a funny thing is I have been in all kind of different church situations that I NEVER Thought I would hear that DIRTY RELIGION preached and it JUST POPS OUT!!

    Think if the crowd is not responding to what they are initially speaking about it is much like I have seen comics go for a cheap pop by asking the crowd to give it up for the troops protecting us over seas.

    Me thinks that gay bashing is the way most weak fundy preachers get a cheap pop!!!

  65. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    So let me get this straight… when Pat Robertson talks about misfortune as “payback for sin” on God’s part, everyone cringes on his behalf, n’est–ce pas?

    But “Wade” gets to trot out the EXACT SAME LINE about the Perrys, and it’s clever/insightful/funny?

    I’m sorry. If that’s serious, it’s twisted and unbiblical. And if that’s a joke, it’s a pretty sick excuse for one.

  66. Wade wrote:

    #65 Brooke — Yeppers I am a lot funnier than Pat!!!

    I KNOW maybe not to you Brooke. But you can’t write to Self Important Uptight Diesel Sniffers!! The only time you laugh is on the back of the bus!!

    But really it is not the same. Pat is a preacher usually dropping those lines against gays, drunks and drug users.

    My line was against people who MAKE MONEY preaching Hate so they can REMOVE People from their money at The Expense of those same kind of people…. and if it is TRUE for Pat surely it goes back and forth. That’s all I am saying!!

    It’s true they do it to remove money from people because if it wasn’t the preachers of HATE would come on here and defend themselves!!

  67. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    I guess I just don’t find bad jokes funny. I’m weird that way.

    So the Perrys are the ones spewing “HATE”? The irony is rich.

  68. Wade wrote:

    Like I said Brooke you are an audience that can’t be written for!!!

    Yes according to Ode they are!! Don’t pretend you have not read her post!!!

  69. Ode wrote:

    67,You are such a firebrand, ygg, but ok, if you asking seriously, I’ll bite.
    Perrys, among others, called for support of the law that would legally treat some as less than human beings, discriminate against and denied them basic rights. Doug Harrison, Kirk Talley, The Dove Brothers’ bass singer openly lesbian daughter, other gays in the industry all are subhumans to Perrys. 
    Yet there is hope. By God’s promise in Deut,  Psalms,  Proverbs, Lamentations, To the Hebrews and Revelation:“whom I love I chastise” , it’s reasonable to expect that them, as well as everyone of us, will be at certain point taught to overcome what we lack…
    Even what they go thru now -Libby just learned experientially the horror of what she wished on her brethren, to be denied the love of a spouse when one is very sick- might become of great spiritual benefit to her.  
    It might take some time though….Bob Jones University fought in court for almost ten years for the right to ban interracial marriage and keep their tax exempt status, got to Supreme Court, which made the school choose one or the other, and Uni decided to keep its racist rule all the way to 2000. Jerry Falwell condemned the court order as government interference in Christian schools using the same idea that Perrys and their ilk promoted in their venomous social media rant “government is oppressing Christians”. May God help cure Perrys evil, hateful hearts.
    PS That was a xtian in me that said the above ;) A jew : ”they want to please only elderly racist homophobic -dying out, mostly on fixed income- fans? Thats one way to shoot your foot out in entertainment business!”

  70. Wade wrote:

    Thanks Ode… you always say it SOOOOOO much better than I can!!!

    Plus I like a good cat fight!!!

    Happy Memorial Day Everybody!!

  71. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    Ode’s bedtime prayer: “Lord, I thank thee that I am not like those Perrys!”

    You looking for a reward sister? You got it. Enjoy it while it lasts.

  72. Wade wrote:

    My bed time prayer… Thank you Lord for not making me a KNOW IT ALL LIKE BROOKE!!

  73. DLP wrote:

    Thanks for the giggle Wade!

  74. Wade wrote:

    Your Welcome DLP… I mean what ya gonna do!?!?!?

  75. weber wrote:

    Yankee girl, Brooke, and the other few heterosexuals whom visit this sight…your not gonna change the way homosexuals think nor convert them to your views. Honestly its a waste of time and energy. The same goes for gospel music artist, its a waste of time, these folks struggle everyday with their sexuality and wrestle against flesh and blood. Homosexuals have existed since the OT and are acknowleded just as well in the NT. Now grant it, the words God used to deal with them seem plain and harsh, in my view, nevertheless the Big picture is that right or wrong He will deal with them in his time, which in many cases will be in the next life. What is not normal about homosexuals and the lifestyle is that specifically gospel music artist feel compelled they have to live a double life. This is trajic, I believe thats worse than being openly gay.. people deserve to know the real you. Nobody should stand before the church and critisize a lifestyle they in most cases have no scientific, psychological or genetic clue about. I will say this again, the bigger sin… is living a lie and presenting yourself as something your not.

  76. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    I’m just calling out the despicable attitude I see toward the Perrys here. Apparently, because they supported a business, who gave money to a company, who lobbied against a congressional resolution that condemned a draconian anti-gay bill in Uganda (which resolution also threw in sweeping terms to the effect that homosexuals have a “basic human right” to follow their impulses) … the Perrys view gays as subhuman/want to slaughter or criminalize them all. Yeah, makes sense. That’s slander, pure and simple.

  77. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    Actually, I should clarify… FRC was in favor of most of the congressional resolution and never attempted to “Kill the Bill” as has been reported. However, they were asked BY CONGRESS to comment on the drafts and criticized the sweeping “basic human rights” language (language that went beyond truly basic rights). But again, what this has to do with the Perrys is beyond me. They may not even have HEARD of the Uganda bill for all you know.

  78. Ode wrote:

    71,I can’t be all of them, but why wouldn’t I mind being made Libby Perry? Admire people that can sing or play an instrument.   Alto voice, good looking, straight hair, an American citizen?  Already married to what I read a kind, nice guy, while I still have to shift thru all the local Midwest possible suitors, overwhelmingly wrong material?  I trade in a heartbeat.
    As for her spiritual state – as I said, we all are under chastisement; surely hers is no worse than others.
     70,As Pussy Galore in Ian Fleming’s Goldfinger said to JB  “You can turn off the charm. I’m immune” I surely can’t explain anything better than a native speaker. But if you run for POTUS or a mayor of Chattanooga I can be your head of PR.
    Get some jason crabb sing at your inauguration, even lib media would cheer ;).   

     77, read my posts. It got nothing to do with uganda bill.

  79. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    Um, then what was this word salad all about? “Support of Death Sentence for Homosexuality Bill by Chick-Fil- hAte’s sponsored radical anti-gay groups like Focus on the Family, Uganda bill…”

  80. Wade wrote:

    Ode… Stopped worrying about charm a long time ago and thanks for the offer… but just speaking the truth and calling BS!!

    Brooke is FULL of IT!!!

  81. Ode wrote:

     You are throwing insults at me and expect me to be explaining things to you?
    Uganda bill was mentioned as a reminder of the events, not as a main reason why Perrys are  scum (if good as musicians). Stop playing dumb and being dishonest.
    If what I said appears to you as “word salad” then we have nothing to talk about.
    While I don’t mind debating the opposition is you are being unreasonable and rude, so until you change your behavior, I won’t reply to you.

  82. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    You’re dragging the Perrys’ good name through the mud and calling them “scum,” and I’m the one being unreasonable and rude?

    But okay, why _did_ you say the Perrys are chafing at the bit to execute gay people? Don’t pretend the Uganda bill wasn’t in the back of your mind when you made that statement. And if this is about redefining marriage, how is that equivalent to “denying a basic human right”?

  83. Wade wrote:


    The Perrys having a good name is YOUR OPINION!!!

    I’m a rogue and if I had the money I would not book them!!! Don’t care how much money they could draw!!! That is saying A Lot!!! I would FEEL Dirty and I’ve paid some fairly big secular acts and some of the biggest bastards in SGM!!

    Anybody that says some of the things they have said about gay people and always giving the SOB story… and this was WAY before Tracy got sick!! Can only imagine how long they will RIDE THAT Horse!!!

    Let’s see….

    Randy was sick.
    Their brother drown. (Brooke you are such a newby you probably do not even know about that or heard that sob story for 15 minutes during their set)
    Libby was sick.
    Tracy got sick the first time.

    Shit if I had that much tragedy and sickness in my family I would maybe take a hint from God and just stay home instead of burdening everybody I sang to about it, so they could be removed from their money to keep that Perry Buss running!!

    Let just say they The Perrys learned more from the Goodmans than, “God Walks the Dark Hills!!!”

  84. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    Yes Wade I have heard the drowning story. Newsflash: Bad things sometimes happen to good people. Steven Curtis Chapman is one of my favorite CCM artists. Are you going to tell me he must have done something wrong for his little girl to die? Wes King is another favorite and an all-round awesome guy. Are you going to tell me he must have ticked off God somehow to get laid low with cancer and have his career derailed at such a young age?

    As for “what they’ve said about gay people,” show me anywhere where they’ve said we should “kill all the gays,” that gays are subhuman, or that God hates fags. And no, expressing disapproval of gay “marriage” or saying that homosexuality is a sin doesn’t count.

  85. LightkeepersJournal wrote:

    Doug, before I commented on this article, I wanted to sit down and thoroughly read it. I prefer not to scan something and then attempt to comment on it.

    I totally agree with your assessment of “Shoutin’ Time” in the audiences today. If you don’t mind, I would love to add a few notes about “shoutin” trends from a Pentecostal perspective:

    1. Totally agree about the “Gaither Effect”. He has definitely brought a level of sophistication that actually brings SG into a more modern medium. (Love your term Disneyfied - priceless!)

    2. 100% definitely think that the soundtracks have contributed to the lack of spontaneous worship in live performances. In my opinion, the canned effect has ruined the performances. (I said the same thing about soloists in our church who used tracks)

    3. Coming from a Pentecostal Church (Church of God), I think the Charismatic Movement and influence has had a LOT to do with it. We went from traditional “Red-Back Hymnals” and traditional Pentecostal worship to a more contemporary worship with Praise & Worship choruses.

    We watched the Charismatic Movement affect everything: attitudes, music, worship, offerings, preaching, etc. etc. In my personal opinion, this onslaught of Charismania eventually ruined our church. It seemed as though a spirit of witchcraft descended upon our church. (but that’s another whole subject for another time)

    4. From the late 70’s to now, more and more SG groups began to appear on TBN, PTL, Daystar, etc. With television appearances, most groups will possibly attempt to tone down the worship style that goes along with Pentecostalism, unless they’re singing on pink-haired lady’s network.

    5. ……and this one may be the most important. There seems to have been a “falling away” from the faith, mostly thanks to the Charismatic Movement. I Corinthians 14:33 says that “God is not the author of confusion…..”

    The Charismatic movement brought a lot of confusion into the churches, and that effect spread to most everything attached to Christian organizations, Bible studies and Gospel music.

    When you turn your focus from Jesus and redirect it to fads, trends and “what works today”, you will lose the capacity to “feel” the message of the song. Therefore, the sometimes genuine excitement in worship is clouded by the practice of the latest trends (such as repeating a chorus 15 times).

    The decades of the 70’s and especially the 80’s brought Charismania, grandiosity, trends, fads, marketing concepts, ostentatious clothing and makeup, more instruments, increased TV appearances and a supposed modernization of this Southern genre of music.

    It became less and less about the Message and the Voices and more and more about everything else.

  86. Wade wrote:


    But Steven Curtis Chapman does not get up in a 1 hour set and MILK IT for 25 minutes concerning his daughter death!!!

    Like I said God Walks the Dark Hills is not the only thing the Perrys learned from the Goodmans!!

  87. mrdrum wrote:

    Hating on The Perry’s????? I have never heard so much B.S. in my life. At least come up with something factual. You know —- something truthful……

  88. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    Well, there was actually a period where SCC spent quite a long time period per set interweaving appropriate songs with thoughts about the grieving process. Even wrote a whole album about it. And then he went on a tour with his family where his wife would get up and speak about her spiritual journey, with a large part of it revolving around her loss of Maria. And she wrote a book too. So… I don’t know, does that count as “milking it”?

    My challenge about where the Perrys have said truly hateful things about gay people (where “hateful” has been defined by me as calling for their death, declaring them subhuman, and/or gleefully _hoping_ they all burn in hell) stands. Can you meet it?

  89. mrdrum wrote:

    No… Ode and Wade cannot meet it. Period. They have ranted and raved on this site for years. Most of it is pure gibberish to get folks stirred up. I have spent a day or two in the industry and actually know the people they put down. Some of it is true. Most of it is not. I eagerly await their responses! Time for a little accountability boys…….

  90. Curtis wrote:

    Doug. I love your phrase, “primal roar of enraptured pleasure.” It is one of those magnet phrases that gathers material. What follows is more of a rif on your phrase rather than a response.

    How can we have a great “primal roar of enraptured pleasure” when we aren’t involved in much of a great primal struggle? As you noted in your book, Gospel music, if not birthed then, got a running head start post Civil War among a people beaten, burned out and scorched by soul-numbing loss.

    Not just any loss, but the loss that death by war brings. Yes, death of family and friends, but also the reducing of identity to the stuff of nostalgic longing that would later end up as little more than the romantic notions of “Gone with the Wind”.

    To add insult to injury, if the Bluecoats didn’t take it, the Carpetbaggers were on their way to finish the job. Primal struggle.

    Fast forward to the days of Perry’s granny. What did she know? The Great Depression. The raw poverty in the South reminded even the Landed Gentry that Reconstruction would soon and again be on its way. Old wounds made new. Hog and hominy existence made painfully real again. Primal struggle.

    Never mind the Civil Rights movement that emptied the back of the bus and turned what had become the Jim Crow South on it’s head. Primal struggle.

    Perry’s audiences are in every way in a different place. When he sets up his song with the implication, “If-I’ve-got-nothing-else-I’ve-got-my-salvation,” he sets it up for a crowd that showed up in their SUV’s with offering money, CD money, and money enough for supper at the local Shoney’s.

    Compared to the Jim Crow South, the crowd that gathered on cushioned pews and in thermostatically-controlled convention centers might as well be hearing him say, “Let me entertain you.” Primal struggle? T’aint there. Primal roar of pleasure? Can’t happen. What you will (and I think) hear are the self-congratulatory cheers for ourselves for choosing the winning team. Primal roar? I think we have a long wait.

  91. Wade wrote:

    Brooke… Ode has documented several times, several different groups!!! Musta been while you were gone!!!

    Have seen the Perry numerous times and if it was a full set and not something like a NQC set they always had a SOB STORY for every one!!!

    I am sure whatever SCC did was in much better taste and bet he is not still hammering on it in his concerts today!!!

  92. Ode wrote:

    Mrdrum, you little liar! I was on vacation, just got to replies, I will answer, don’t worry - only had time for some other liars on Open thread about Varnado today - I will get to this tomorrow. In the meantime, you screwball can even get my gender right! I see you, just stirring thing up, huh?Ranting and raving, mostly gibberish?What did I ever say that wasn’t true???????IName one! eagerly wait for your reply! Can’t meet it? Time for little accountability, boy!

  93. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    Regardless, comparing the relative levels of “milking” isn’t the main point. You made an argument (not much of one, but an argument) reasoning from the fact that the Perrys have had various misfortunes to the inference that God must be ticked off at them. Which is a major problem already. And since harping on anti-gay so-called “bigotry” is your personal little pet project, you leapt to the convenient conclusion that of course it must be because of all those “God hates fags!” tweets the Perrys have been making (or not).

    I read Ode’s comments. She made subjective judgments about some anti-homosexuality tweets that offended her, with no direct quotes or screencaps (at least in those comments, perhaps she did elsewhere and I missed it). If Brian Free is your standard for homophobia, let’s just say I’m skeptical of your competence to judge what truly “hateful” rhetoric actually looks like.

  94. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    For the record, an advanced twitter search of “homosexuals,” “homosexuality,” or even “Chick-Fil-A” turns up…. no results for Libbi, or even Joseph. I’m sorry, WHAT were you talking about again? Oh, wait, I know… it must be that picture of Bryan Walker’s Chick-Fil-A nuggets that he tweeted, along with another tweet saying he wanted to support a business that affirms God’s plan for marriage. Shock and horror.

    Where’s the call to execute gays OT style? Am I missing something? Is it engraved on the nugget box? If I read the tweets upside down or backwards, will I find a subliminal message that gays are sub-human?

  95. weber wrote:

    Im still scratching my head as to why Ode and Wade follow gospel music it obviously is a stumbling block for both of them, enough with the chip on shoulder about your lifestyle, we are really sick of hearing about it.

  96. Ode wrote:

    82,“Good name” is subjective. TBN has a “good name” to many.SG racists of old had a ‘good name’ All homophobes esp. Christian ones, are moral scum, to me.

     I don’t follow SG singers, but I checked them if I have some purpose, for example  when  I saw- I think, on your blog- a mention of some being in favor of  CFA’s side of their August controversy, which  was mainly due to Cathy’s support of hate groups like FRC (infamous  Tony Perkins) etc, that are so viciously harmful and anti-human rights that Christian forces, some secular schools and a couple of mayors objected to the presence of CFA on their land as “incompatible with their moral values”, and  finally made Cathy drop the support of most evil ones.

     Perrys retwitted  a pastor ‘s quote about stoning  gays. Yes, that’s being scum in my book. Yes, denying gay and their kids the same protections of a marriage that Perrys themselves enjoy IS treating gays as subhumans. Yes,twitting to stop a bill  that would make bullying  of gay kids, often  all the way to suicide, illegal ,is evil . But in SG this evil is called “good”.    

     I don’t care for their or your support or to trust me on the issue though… When did he get sick, in March or so? Since then 3 American states and 3 countries( + UK is in final stages) legalized gay marriage with legislation pending in many other locations, with the large support of progressive religious  and secular populations. Homophobes are on the same side of history as KKK. 

    As for screenshots  Wade mentioned – yes, I grabbed those from a few artists , not just on homophobia, but generally to make fun of crazy fundie culture for another blog, just quoting, without mentioning actual names. My goal is not to expose detailed dirt, but a broader discussion and understanding of the Christian fundie culture.

  97. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    I think Wade’s all about the babes actually, but heteros can be flaming liberal jerks too. Just like men can be feminists, etc.

  98. Ode wrote:

    “denying basic human rights”…  

    Basic rights is not about what we ( you or I )like or dislike.  If Gerald  Crabb and Kathy Crabb who have 6 spouses  between two of them so far, enjoy the basic human right to proudly love whomever  they are curently wed  to, until the next one comes along, why is the Dove Brothers’  Burman Porter ‘s lesbian daughter  doesn’t deserve to marry one she loves, too ? Do I like Crabbs being  serial  adulterers ? No. Do you like gays being married? No. Yet it s their basic human rights.

    We  will never see face to face on this, ygg.  But if you wish to debate any point,say it - politely, reasonably and respectfully ,I will never deny you the  reply for I do respect you  for your  musical knowledge – and promise to  answer when I have time, if Doug allows the debate to go on, of course.

  99. Ode wrote:

    95, :D So one can only follow, in your opinion, if he or she turd polishes and never speaks up against anything? Hm That is actually very helpful in understanding why  you are so hated or ignored outside of the small circle of devotees. And I wonder why do  you want to be seen as a bunch of  stupid redneck knuckledruggers unable to think critically?
    No I follow as in “buy CD if I like it “, as I follow many other genres.
    I like reading about its history, too - sadly there is almost no good ,interesting books on it And it’s educational and funny to follow the craziness of the pseudo religious culture.

  100. yankeegospelgirl wrote:

    Ode, you seem to have a very different definition of “right” than I do. For something to be legally permissible is not equivalent to being a fundamental human right. Certain sins may be allowed to continue unpunished by law. That doesn’t make them fundamental human rights. Unless you really do believe that we have a fundamental human right to do whatever we feel like, whenever we feel like it.

    As for the quote about stoning gays, whatever it was it didn’t come up in any advanced twitter searches. So I really can’t address what you’re talking about.

  101. Wade wrote:

    Brooke … Yeppers I am ALL about the Babes!!

    weber… I like the music and the message!! If you wake up and listen to Gold City sing “If God Be for Ya”… who can be against ya!!!

    So liars like weber & double speaking word twisting and hair splitters like Brooke is does not worry me at ALL!!!

  102. Ode wrote:

    Yes, I agree, it makes no sense to argue, our views differ too much, and the debate on rights will be going on long after both of us turn into dust.

     Rights ought to be viewed in historical context, its definition and ways of social implementation are ever-changing. When Fathers wrote the phrase “The right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness” into the Declaration, claiming that unalienable rights are given by The Creator, it perfectly coexisted with consequently sending some on the Trail of Tears, buying-selling some owners of the above-mentioned rights like livestock, sending some to camps, and voting denial to yet others, as well as white and colored lunch counters.

     In the writers mind ‘all’ were limited, to basically, white male property owners. That’s why I brought up BJU – in the minds of good men Falwell and Jones forcing Christian Uni to accept blacks, and later interracial marriage was just governmentally imposed evil.  

    Unless you can challenge the notion that SG is highly homophobic, my opinion on that subject is set, I have nothing else to discuss. Digging into dirt on Perrys or others was educationa to a degree, past that it’s pointless.
    Some here have said they limit their/interest in  SG  to exclusively  the music, ignoring the disgusting culture of it. Advice I should probably listen to ;)

    (Appreciate the conversation. Off to make a beehive for a 60s themed BDay party tnite. Hope I can take it apart afterwards)

  103. weber wrote:

    Wade, you love the music and message, im sure Ode would say the same thing, here is a thought, stop shooting the messengers. Lets say your right about the Perrys etc… do you really think your helping anyone here with your opinions and views especially when 99% of the time they are negative? I happen to agree with th observation that the Perrys play on peoples emotions, however stating the obvious here helps nobody nor changes anything.

  104. Rick56 wrote:

    Re: #103. This is a forum for everyone to express their opinions, whether they be positive or negative. And whether one agrees or disagrees. If one wants only positive, uplifting puff pieces, then read the PR the groups put out.

  105. Know Too Much wrote:

    Take it from one who has stood backstage with the elite, side by side, listening to stories of what is really going on. It has ruined me. I’m not going to judge or point fingers because its just not worth it. Look around at the wavering support for SGM. There is a reason, blame is flying like birds in a Hitchcock film. Knowing what I know, seeing what I’ve seen, hearing what I’ve heard gives me no other option but to know beyond any doubt, God is judging SGM and its players. Stand on stage and raise the banner for God and get off stage in the bus and lie, cheat, steal, get drunk, take drugs, get naked and show your parts to the female gospel singer at the urging of your boss, share kiddie porn, show the pic of a woman eating …, (discusting)

    Go ahead and wonder what is happening to SGM. Sorry I no longer have any hope for the future in this business. Christians have pointed our fingers at others and now we are paying the price.

    It’s not just SGM. Churches are emptying faster than you can say “glory”. I’ve been with the preachers, music ministers and deacons. I wanna sit here and cry like the Indian looking at the garbage. But it ain’t worth it. I have stood by and let it go for the sake of the music, friends and a little money. But I cannot, with my conscience in tact, be a part of this. You can find me with the sinners.

    “Know too much”

  106. Ode wrote:

    Are you for real, or just a parody, #105? Any way to get I touch with you, I am interested in asking a few things, not names or graphic details at all ,but rather a real, non sugar coated perspective, for my own enlightement. If so,drop a note to my yahoo account, its “odeliyab”

  107. Know Too Much wrote:

    #106. Yes Ode. I am very real. I sent you an email. For the rest of you here, please pray for all these people. There are a number of great, loving and non-judgemental people trying to do right. I simply love this music and the people who are in it. But if the general fan knew what I knew, there would be no more SGM period.

    Let’s just take a step back and think about the people we love, our family and friends. Love and forgiveness is for everyone, not just certain ones we feel deserve it.

    There is no Hope for SGM, churches or Christians period, until we pull ourselves back together and love each other the way God loves us.

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